Boycott The Guardian


By Real Real Zionist
January 30, 2012
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It never ceases to amaze me just how dumb much of the stuff that is said on here is. Most of it said in all sincerity and seriousness.

Today's example....." Anti Zionism is anti semitism". Get your head around that if you possibly can.

The "IS " here is the is of identity. "Anti Zionism IS anti semitism "

The ancients noticed a star low down in the evening sky and called it " Hesperus". They also noticed a star low down in the morning sky and called it " Phosphorous". It was eventually realised that Hesperus and Phosphorous were the self same heavenly body, the planet Venus.

Hesperus is Phosphorous.Hesperus and Phosphorous are identicals. Now the Law of the Indiscernability of Identicals tells us that identicals have ALL of their properties in common. These include of course common
origin, common history, common fate etc.

So if anti Zionism really IS anti semitism, anti semitism cannot possibly pre date Zionism.So all the persecution and discrimination against Jews prior to the rise of Zionism, wasn't really anti semitism at all.

The simple fool proof test of whether this or that IS this or that, is the test of substitutivity. We should be able to substitute one word or expression for the other in ANY sentence without loss or change of sense.

So " There was a great deal of anti Zionism in Moorish Spain " ,has as much, and the same,sense as " There was a great deal of anti semitism in Moorish Spain" .

Watch out for the next exciting episode, when we will consider the question of whether any sense can be made of the notion of " self determination" .

And remember.

Dumb is dumb. The fact that it was said by some parliamentary committee or whatever, doesn't make it less dumb.

On a slightly different tack.There are a great many Jews that are anti Zionist ( not me ). There a great many Zionist Jews that are anti any political expression of Zionism. There are a great many Zionist Jews that are sympathetic to it's political expression yet are horrified by what The State of Israel has become.

COMMENTS

happygoldfish

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 09:44

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Real Real Zionist: The simple fool proof test of whether this or that IS this or that, is the test of substitutivity. We should be able to substitute one word or expression for the other in ANY sentence without loss or change of sense.

a fool-proof test? let's see!

life isn't a maths forum, or a philosophy forum, where words such as "is" must be logically defined and rigorously used

in ordinary english, we often place "is" before a collective noun (such as antisemitism or racism or meat) in a way that hellenistic philosophy schools would have disapproved of

do you seriously say there is anything wrong (with the english) in saying …

"why can't i have milk with my chicken? chicken isn't meat"
"chicken is meat!"

or, closer to your example …

"making monkey noises on the terraces is racism"

what is the difference between those examples and

"anti-zionism is antisemitism"

sorry, rrz, but some fool-proof tests are only good at proving someone a fool!


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 10:23

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Indeed but the question IS .....which someone?


happygoldfish

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:03

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rrz, what's your answer?

do you seriously say there is anything wrong (with the english) in saying …

"why can't i have milk with my chicken? chicken isn't meat"
"chicken is meat!"

or, closer to your example …

"making monkey noises on the terraces is racism"

what is the difference between those examples and

"anti-zionism is antisemitism"


Advis3r

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:04

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Problem for you Phoney is that no-one is saying anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism what they are saying is that anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism. Live with it.


Advis3r

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:09

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When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Dr. King responded: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Seymour Martin Lipset, “The Socialism of Fools—The Left, the Jews and Israel,” Encounter, (December 1969), p. 24


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:17

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Goldfish bit tough to deal with on my phone I will address your question when I get hhone.

As for Jose what on earth is he on about?

Help me out here.


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:19

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So king is a dumbo. So what?


Advis3r

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 11:51

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King unfortunately no longer "is" but of course someone who talks to imaginary friends is hardly likely to know that is he?


Advis3r

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 12:20

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Oh and to pre-empt Phoney and whether any sense can be made of "self-determination" this is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

Self-determination is the principle in international law that nations have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or external interference. The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, or what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation. Neither does it state what the delimitation between nations should be — or even what constitutes a nation. In fact, there are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination. Moreover, self-determination is just one of many principles applied to determining international borders.
By extension the term self-determination has come to mean the free choice of one's own acts without external compulsion.

And if he gets someone to help him with the hard words he could try reading this:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_gx5215/is_2002/ai_n19132482/


jose (not verified)

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 17:25

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Well, maybe we have here a real real zionist, but most probably a real real idiot.
"Anti-zionism is antisemitism" is not an 'is of identity' but an 'is of category', just as much as "I am a man" does not imply that "any man is me".
One should therefore interpret it as "Anti-zionism is [a special form or example of] antisemitism". Perfectly correct and understandable.
Maybe you could read again Korzybski's "Science and Sanity".

Thanks for re-using my profile picture ! Just to add some confusion.


jose (not verified)

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 17:30

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If I had to guess, this kind of joke is Joe Millis' style. Piss-poor example of a " real real Zionist" !


Advis3r

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 17:31

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Hey Real Phoney's imaginary friend is not imaginary!


jose (not verified)

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 17:52

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In fact, it is our dumbo who projected an 'is of identity' in the sentence by making it mean "anti-Zionism is [another name for] antisemitism", a statement that no one in his own mind would pretend, if only because there were antisemites much before Zionism was created.
We have had Christian antisemitism for centuries, we have had racist antisemitism (indeed, the word itself was coined by a racist). None of these are anti-Zionism.
The substitution test is in fact a test of the 'is of identity'. If substitution does not work, then it was not an 'is of identity'. Dumbo begs the question that it was an 'is of identity' then shows there is a contradition and fails to reach the correct conclusion, that his hypothesis was wrong. Instead, he blames the statement itself.


jose (not verified)

Mon, 01/30/2012 - 17:58

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Hi Advis3r. Never was imaginary, but since dumbo mentions my name, he should be a very old 'friend' of ours, since I didn't post here for at least a year and a half.
My guess is that dumbo is Millis.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 09:20

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What a performance.


KatieCarslake

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 09:30

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This isn't even multiple personality disorder, it's same personality disorder.


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 09:48

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lol


Harvey

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 10:27

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RRZ
Not all antizionists are antisemites and not all antisemites are necessarily antizionist . I'm sure there are quite a few of those who are pleased to see Israel as the Jewish nation for the simple reason that in the words of Nasrallah , they are gathered in one place making it easier to deal with the problem in one go .
So yes you are right . Not all antizionists are antisemites . However if you examine the recent Palestinian Solidarity Campaign AGM and the vote to kick out or reject the appeal of a visceral antisemite and Holocaust denier , apparently a shade under 17% voted to keep him in . Of course this vote fails to take into account the ones who decided best to keep their heads down lest they suffer the same fate .
What sort of organisation has to hold such an extraordinary vote in the first place . I would suggest to you , only one which was riddled with antisemites and Holocaust deniers in the first place .
But I don't need a vote to tell me that . I just need to listen to neo fascists screaming their River to the Sea Mantra with all that entails to tell me what lies bubbling beneath the surface of this ' humanitarian organisation '.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 11:06

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Why Harvey thank you for your support on this one. From an unexpected quarter but welcome nonetheless

I do hope that you have recovered well from your recent traumas and that you and Carole can find it in your hearts to be an example to us all and kiss and make up.


Advis3r

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 13:51

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Kicks back and watches the fun - the day was obviously going to come when "Jose" would make a re-appearance Phoney clearly failed to take that into account. Noch he stole his picture too - though why anyone should use a picture of a man who was against the Jewish people having their own state beats me.


Advis3r

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 13:54

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BTW someone who calls Dr Martin Luther King a dumbo has some serious problems.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:06

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Advis3r, Gandhi was a man and had many failures in his life. He wanted an independant country for his people and failed to understand why the Jewish people would want one. The explanation is to be found in the fact that he wanted to appease the Muslim population, a tactique that doesn't work up till today, quite the opposite.
Gandhi wanted that Hindus and Muslims lived together in India, but he got endless wars with the Muslims and finally got a Pakistan (Eastern and Western) and a smaller India.

Yet, Gandhi was a fantastic man.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:09

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All anti-zionists are antisemites as well. Or can someone can explain how being opposed to an indepedance movement for a given people can be something positive for this people.
Therefore, all anti-zionists want to harm the Jewish people or at least deny it a right that all other people are granted or should be granted. There are very few anti-zionists that would also claim to be anti-Tibetan.
Double standards are a sure sign of antisemitism.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:21

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Dear god he is even pretending to have an argument with himself


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:25

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Can't have an argument with you: you cannot even present one !


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:36

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What I find curious is that someone who claims not to have blogged here for 18 months suddenly " comes back " with such passion, vitriol and ever presence. What on earth has he been doing with it all this time ?


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:41

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Who cares? Do you believe these JC blogs is useless chatter about people?


Advis3r

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:42

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Phoney good cop out for not dealing with the issue.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:51

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Have you noted how many rats came out of the rathole when I reappeared?


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:19

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Are you talking to me or chewing a brick ?


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:25

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"...and that you and Carole can find it in your hearts to be an example to us all and kiss and make up".

There'd better be a movie.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:34

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"Are you talking to me ?" I know that movie, Taxi Driver !


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:37

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Btw, in that movie, De Niro was not really playing a very stable character...


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 11:18

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Advsr/Jose/Anthony/blackie, where exactly did you see this movie?

New Zealand ?

South Africa?

France ?

Spain?

occupied East Jerusalem ?

Milton Keynes ?


jose (not verified)

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 13:35

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Avoid personal attacks, dumbo-Millis. You know very well where I live.

Is "occupied East Jerusalem" a real place?
East Jerusalem doesn't seem occupied. In fact it is part of Israel since its liberation from the Jordanian occupier. And before them, it was occupied by Turkey. So East Jerusalem could be called correctly "liberated East Jerusalem". Since it has be reunified under the Israeli flag, there is now only Jerusalem.
Like Berlin, won't be divided again.


Ben F

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 14:23

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Haaaa " Jose" you are a one stater. Welcome aboard matey.


jose (not verified)

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 14:29

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Well, you must be deranged too: I never advocated "one state", just one state of Israel, with Jerusalem (East, West, North and South included) as its capital.

I don't care where the 'Palestinians' want to live provided they don't claim any inch of Israel's territory. Judea Samaria is part of a dispute, and I advocate a negotiated settlement, as required by international decisions. Precisely these negotiations that 'Palestinians' rejected for more than ten years now.

But forget about Jerusalem, it does not belong to 'Palestinians'.

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