How do YOU define democracy?

This blogger of course has no love for Israel. It often makes people uncomfortable to refer to Israel as “the Jewish State” because it suggests a theocracy and, therefore, the demise of Israel as a Jewish state would of course be viewed by Watchful Iris as a positive development. Israel is not a theocracy however, it is governed by the rule of law as drafted by a democratically elected parliament. It is informed by Jewish values and adheres to many Jewish religious customs (such as holidays), but this is similar to the United States and the United Kingdom and other nations that are shaped by the Judeo-Christian heritage and also have expressly religious elements (e.g., church-state separation in the U.S. does not preclude the recognition of Christmas as a holiday).
Israel has no state religion unlike the UK there is no mention of a supreme being in the National Anthem, and all faiths enjoy freedom of worship, yet Watchful Iris would attack it for its Jewish character. Unlike Saudi Arabia to which Watchful iris would like to compare the Jewish State Christian Bibles are not banned criminals are judged in secular not religious courts and Muslims and Christians as well as Jews may follow their religion without prohibition.
The Jewish people are a nation with a shared origin, religion, culture, language, and history. And why shouldn’t the Jewish people have a state? No one suggests that Arabs are not entitled to a nation (and they have not one, but twenty-one) of their own or Swedes or Germans, or that Catholics are not entitled to a state (Vatican City) headed by a theocrat (the Pope). To suggest that Zionism, the nationalist movement of the Jewish people, is the only form of nationalism that is illegitimate is pure bigotry. It is especially ironic that the Jewish nation should be challenged given that Jewish statehood preceded the emergence of most modern nation-states by thousands of years.
It is also not unusual that one community should be the majority within a nation and seek to maintain that status. In fact, this is true in nearly every country in the world. Moreover, societies usually reflect the cultural identity of the majority. India and Pakistan were established at the same time as Israel through a violent partition, but no one believes these nations are illegitimate because one is predominantly Hindu and the other has a Muslim majority, or that these nations shouldn’t be influenced by those communities (e.g., that cows in India should not be treated as sacred).No one calls India theocratic so why should Watchful Iris believe Israel be so termed?
In the United States, a vigorous debate persists over the boundaries between church and state. Similar discussions regarding “synagogue and state” are ongoing in Israel, with philosophical disagreements over whether Israel can be a Jewish and a democratic state, and practical arguments over Sabbath observance, marriage and divorce laws, and budgets for religious institutions. Nevertheless, most Jews take for granted that Israel is, and must remain, a Jewish state. Arab citizens also understand that Israel is a Jewish state and, while they might prefer that it was not, they have still chosen to live there (nothing prevents Arabs from moving to any of the 180-odd non-Jewish states in the world). Both Jews and Arabs realize that if Jews cease to be a majority in Israel, Israel will no longer have a Jewish character or serve as a haven for persecuted Jews, and that is one of the elements underlying peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. It is not as Watchful Iris would have you believe that Israel cannot stomach being included on a list with Arab and Muslim theocracies but because it is patently not a theocracy so why should it be?

Yes, Israel is a democracy at present, thankfully. But in a democracy it's not the voting that counts but who counts the votes and who's votes count. And the non-Jewish minorities' votes appear to count less and less as their numbers get bigger and bigger.
One main problem is that it is sliding towards racism and legislation has been introduced to ensure so that people can live in gated, golden ghettos where they see only their own.
Another problem is that while all democracies are states for all their citizens, Israel appears to be a state for all its Jews. The symbols, naturally enough, are Jewish, but it is very difficult to expect the 1.5 million non-Jewish citizens of the state to sing an anthem which refers to "Jewish yearning". Perhaps another verse could be introduced, or better still, let's have an anthem that is a bit more upbeat than the current Romanian folk-song inspired dirge.
Even better would be a sense that Israel is offering its non-Jewish minority a shared future, without which it is likely that there will be some kind of Balkanisation.
I do agree with Advis3r "that if Jews cease to be a majority in Israel, Israel will no longer have a Jewish character or serve as a haven for persecuted Jews..." That's why it is imperative that Israel get out of the occupied territories and give up on the demographic nightmare that is one state between the Sea and the River. That's Hamas's ultimate goal and we should not be supporting it.

Oh dear...several ad homs, all projection....not a very good way to go about things. Is there someone I can call for you?

Look up the definition of ad hominem Iris "is there someone I could call for you?" is just one. I have not attacked you as you have attacked me only your message hateful as it is.

1. This blogger of course has no love for Israel

2. the demise of Israel as a Jewish state would of course be viewed by Watchful Iris as a positive development.

3 and 4. yet Watchful Iris would attack it for its Jewish character. Unlike Saudi Arabia to which Watchful iris would like to compare the Jewish State

Better make that call.

How does mentioning that you do not love Israel constitute ad hominem? The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy but it is not always fallacious; in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

Ad hominam is going for the person, not the argument.

"If Israel were to drop the pretense of being a democracy"

When a deranged Israel-hater walks like a duck, talks like a duck and throws dreck around like a duck, we know what she is ...

"it is very difficult to expect the 1.5 million non-Jewish citizens of the state to sing an anthem which refers to "Jewish yearning"."

Tough. It's the state of the Jews. They - and obviously, you - will have to learn to live with it. Those who don't like it - incl. you - know where the door is. There are plenty of fascist Arab and other Muslim states they - and you - can go to.

"let's have an anthem that is a bit more upbeat than the current Romanian folk-song inspired dirge"

Nil understanding of Jewish history and culture, and even less empathy. What a surprise ...

Poor Leah doesn't quite grasp the concept of democracy, where all the country's citizens have a share in that country's future, irrespective of race, religion, creed or gender. It even says so in Israel's Declaration of Independence, so I guess Leah must be one of those anti-Zionist negators of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.
Oh, and by changing the anthem, I mean something a bit more jaunty to reflect the Middle Eastern character of the state and most of its citizens (and non-citizens). Israel isn't a European state. Hatikva is based on a European (Romanian) melody and as such is anachronistic. Maybe they can have something by Avihu Medina, Kobi Oz or Ethnix and Eyal Golan.

Good point Leah. The bottom line is that the main reason why people like Iris and Joe don't like Israel is it because it makes safe guarding the Jewish people its priority, and what's worse, it makes absolutely no excuse for doing so.

If these Arabs aren't happy in Israel, they have 21 other Arab states they can run to, and failing that, they can always join their brothers in Europe.

Also Joe, You have a huge cheek Joe asking Israel to modify its symbols to make them seem less Jewish. I don't see you asking the UK to modify its flag to make it less christian by having the St George's cross removed.

All you and your friends need to know Joe is that Israel is here, it is going no where, and anyone who makes a threat towards it, whether genuine or in jest will be dealt with accordingly. The state of Israel has created a new Jew, one that is proud and one that is strong, and I for one couldn't be happier.

Robert, if Israel withdraws from the occupied territories and gives up on the dream of a single entity between the River and the Sea then it can continue to be a safe haven for Jews. Otherwise, it will cease to exist and will have only its myopic political leadership and messianic settlers to blame. And I don't want Israel to cease to exist. I want it to fulfil its role of being a beacon unto the nations.
Why should Israeli Arabs leave their homeland?
The Cross of St George (who was probably born in what is today Lebanon) has lost practically all of its Christian meaning.
Indeed, Israel is going nowhere, because it is being tied down by myopic political leadership more scared about their seats than for the country's future.

But being a Leeds and Scotland footballer, I expect you don't understand that. Say hello to Richard Millett.

Cyprus a member of the EU has more Muslims per capita than Israel.

This is its national Anthem:-

I shall always recognise you
By the dreadful sword you hold,
As the earth, with searching vision,
You survey, with spirit bold.
'Twas the Greeks of old whose dying
Brought to birth our spirit free.
Now, with ancient valour rising,
Let us hail you, oh Liberty!

Maybe Joe you should write to the Cypriot Ambassador in London and point out the error of his country's ways.

That's the Greek part. The Northern bit is occupied by the Turks, and is not part of the EU.

Yes Joe if only we would withdraw from Judea and Samaria Islam would expunge the verses in the Koran calling for the death of Jews The UN unlike it is doing in Lebanon will make sure the Arabs keep their side of the bargain and unlike with Hezbollah will ensure that 40,000 rockets are not targetted at Tel Aviv Ben Gurion Airport etc from kalkilya and Ramallah et al- and all will be hunkey dory. Yes we will sure be a bright beacon then with all those rockets falling on us and lighting up the skies for miles around.Forgive me as one living here who does not share your utopian view I for one am prepared to accept the Arabs at their word i.e. the one they tell their own people not the sanitized one they provide for the West.

Joe I never said Israeli Arabs have to leave, I said if they don't like living in a Jewish country then they are free to leave to live somewhere else. However, what is not acceptable is for Israeli Arab citizens to live in Israel, benefit from the perks of being an Israeli citizen, but then meet with it's enemies and call for its destruction from within Israel, as proven by former MK Azmi Bishara.

And Israel will eventually withdraw from most of the DISPUTED territory, but only when it is safe to. Whilst the lives of its Jewish citizens are at risk, Israeli leaders cannot make concessions.

Finally, whether you like them or not, the current Israeli government was voted in by the people of Israel. Bibi Netanyahu has been shot fighting for Israel and has lost his brother for the cause. Therefore, I trust him a hell of a lot more then someone like yourself who resides from their nice house in NW London.

Joe your point being?
How about Bulgaria then which has a similar Muslim population to israel its anthem goes:-

Stately old mountain,
next to it the Danube blue,
shining upon Trakiya,
the sun burns over Pirin. (area of the Rhodope mountains)

Chorus-
Dear motherland,
you are paradise on earth,
your beauty and your charm,
ah, they have no bounds.

Countless fighters gave their lives for our beloved people.
Mother, give us manly strength to carry on their course.

yep that really is inclusive.

Advi3er, show me where in that anthem does it make mention of Christian Bulgars as opposed to any other kind.

Robert, Bibi got wounded shooting himself in the foot during the Sabena rescue.
I don't live in North-West London. I have served in the Israeli army, three years in a combat unit and was a reservist in the 1982 Lebanon War (three stints in Beirut, Karaun Lake and Jounieh).
True, I don't play for Leeds or have a Scotland cap, but hey-ho...I'm glad you recognise the need for Israel to withdraw from most of the OCCUPIED (I can do caps too) territories. Perhaps you should join Pro-Zion or Mapam.

"Poor Leah doesn't quite grasp the concept of democracy, where all the country's citizens have a share in that country's future, irrespective of race, religion, creed or gender. It even says so in Israel's Declaration of Independence, so I guess Leah must be one of those anti-Zionist negators of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state"

Quite spectacular nonsense from Millis, who thinks that democracy consists in changing the anthem because some nonentity like Millis demands it.

"I have served in the Israeli army, three years in a combat unit"

Talk about being a fantasist ... this would be funny if it weren't so utterly sad.

"Occupied territories"

You really have fundamental difficulties grasping the concept of Jewish sovereignty under the LoN rules, don't you? Poor Millis.

Well said, Robert. Iris and Joe and all other rabid haters think that this is 1942. They have not been paying attention. Today's Israeli no longer bends the knee like Millis and his little mates.

Leah, by every posting you reveal more and more that you are none other than someone who has already been barred from here. Keep up the good work for other negators of Israel's existence as a Jewish and democratic state. How's Jose, by the way?

Definitely a case for a professional mental health worker specialising in paranoid schizophrenia. A very sad case.

Joe given your latest comment is it your view that the Jews are not a people just a religion? The Jews as a people have let other people enjoy the Land of Israel why do we have to include other peoples in our National Anthem? Britain does not, the USA does not either.

Neither God Save the Queen nor the Star Spangled Banner differentiates between various types of Brits or yanks and don't speak only to one ethnic group. Nice try, no cigar but God Save the Queen is a bit of a dirge, too.
Jews are a nation. Don't think I ever said otherwise.

Yep, Leah is Jose/yoni1

Just to clarify, Advis3r, I have also dismissed as rubbish the claims by Shlomo Zand in his book. You may also note that I have referred to immigrants from North Africa and the Levant as Returnees (as opposed to refugees).
I have no problem with Israel being the national state/homeland of the Jewish people and I say so repeatedly. It is my view, however, that for it to sustain itself as such and as a democracy as envisaged by its founding fathers it must retain at least a 70-80 per cent Jewish majority. By holding on to the West Bank, by expanding the toxic settlement enterprise (and it's toxic to Israel and the diaspora more than anything else) and by enacting racist legislation it is betraying itself and world Jewry.
Sorry that you and others don't like to hear that, but that's how I and many others who do not wish to be ventriloquist dummies see it.
But it's not us you should worry about; it's the next, far more apathetic generation that will leave you cold.