Thought this might spark some interest
Tue, 03/08/2011 - 13:57
It took a little while to get to the main thrust of this " scientific study" which is that as the Palestinians are descended from Jews they should be afforded Right of Return. In other words just another shameless attempt to delegitimise Israel and ultimately eliminate it by demographic movement when all other attempts have failed.
Of course the Palestinians could always renounce their faith and convert to Judaism thus solving the problem of ROR once and for all.
Tue, 03/08/2011 - 22:56
Eliminate it by demographic movement on the contrary. Did you read the article ?
If the jewish people in Europe can go and live there and its proven that the Palestinians have the same genetics it follows then they should have the same rights to live there. The only demographic movement is the Palestinans were already there as were some jews. The jews in Europe weren't there!!
Wouldnt it be funny if the Palestinians turned out to be a lost tribe of Israel. The thing is its more probably than European jews!!
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 13:53
I read the article .Did you read my comment? Although somewhat tongue in cheek , the essence of it is let the Palestinians convert to Orthodox Judaism and thus be eligible for ROR .This is no less far fetched then your nonsense about DNA whatiffery and a lot less disingenious.
As I said ,your link is nothing other then another subterfuge designed to delegitimise Israel as a nation state ,a Jewish state and one which remains a provider, a protector and a bastion of tolerance for the numerous religious and ethnic minorities that reside there. This is of course unlike the 22 Arab states,which as recent events ably demonstrate, the total reverse of the qualities and values you would wish to see disappear .
Demonisers such as yourself are so determined in your hate for the Jewish state and so convinced of the imperative of its elimination that you are prepared to
ignore the resulting human catastrophe that such a goal would entail.Then again perhaps you think that could be avoided if only Israelis thought like you ,held a referendum and voted themselves into an Islamic Waquf.
Unfortunately ,you share the nihilism of the Palestinians and the mendacity of their supporters .
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 14:52
Amber your personal abuse of me is uncalled for. If you have a point about the article please make it as opposed to resorting to name calling. Alternatively please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that I am a “racist scumbag”?
I posted the link to the article to spark debate, not invite abuse – surely it is just common sense that two peoples that come from the same part of the world share genetic links.
The author of the article extrapolates this scientific evidence to state that the Palestinians should be given the right of return. I have not stated that the Palestinians deserve the right of return however the issue of demographics does need to be looked at.
Harvey and Amber – instead of assuming that I desire the destruction of a state that I hold dear and insulting me personally why not tell me how you think that Israel should deal with the Palestinians? In either a one or two state solution there will be some kind of Arab-Israeli population. How would you tackle the issue of the Arab-Israeli population outnumbering the Jewish-Israeli population?
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 16:44
There is a problem though Harvey. What would be your solution ? I mean possible, practical solution, not your favourite day dream.
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 17:15
No way, we are nothing like Arabs - just look at our complexions!
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 17:42
Stella, you've obviously not met Jews from Yemen, Morocco, Iraq, Iran, Algeria, Tunisia, etc
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 18:12
Joe, am fascinated! Please give me the addresses of the shuls there.
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 18:24
A fundamental requirement of any solution is that the Palestinians and their supporters recognise Israel as an independent Jewish state in the same way that there are 57 Muslim nations.
Unfortunately until now , the nearest we have to that is Erkhat stating that Israel can call itself what it likes ,the inference being that the Palestinians do not recognise it as such with all the deeper implications that is implied. Palestinian refusal to jettison its demand for ROR compounds the problem as it at once negates Israels identity as a nation state for the Jews .
Of course Hamas ,the ruling party in Gaza do not even acknowledge this . They are quite transparent in their rejection of a two state solution and demand a single Islamic state from the River to the Sea .I suggest you google the Hamas charter for the exact wording of this point.
Peace accords have to be seen and acted upon as being irrevocable and not mere ploys on the part of one party to gain time or advantage before recommencing hostilities . This is very much a part of the concept of Jihad whereby a temporary truce or Hudna is a fundamental right.There is of course no basis and no place for such a malign subterfuge between mature nations of good intent.
Your original question is what do I consider to be a practical solution to this seemingly insoluble problem.
The simple answer would be for Israel to withdraw to the 48 armistice lines and for two states to exist side by side as part of an Irrevocable Peace Accord referred to earlier.
However we have been there before. That was the position between 1948 and 1967. During that period there was no occupation and no settlements . The question was and is why did the Palestinians choose not to declare a nation state during that period .
Purely a rhetorical question as there never was any intent to declare a state at that time because then as now the objective is the elimination of Israel .Only now the Palestinians have first to return to the original starting blocks.
No one is under any illusion regarding Palestinian motives and only a Sea Change in their objectives and cause will lead to any hope of Peace.
Wed, 03/09/2011 - 22:31
Stella though this might help with your synagoge plight!!
Your not becoming relgious are you ?
El Ghriba Synagogue, Djerba, Tunisia
Synagogue in Rayda, Yemen
El Ghriba Synagogue on the island of Djerba Algeria
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 09:59
amazed at the up-loads even though they don't give addresses BUT can someone tell me why TheBrit, who says he Jewish, uses a capital P for Palestine but a small j for Jewish in the blogs title...I expect he'll change it now!
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:14
Stella, around half the Jews in Israel originate from Arab countries - the Sephardi/Mizrachi communities. They were expelled by the Arab leaders, forced to leave their properties and businesses behind. The total expelled from Arab countries was about 850,000. They arrived penniless in Israel.
This website is a treasure of information: http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/
There are hardly any Jews left in the Arab world. A handful in Algeria and Yemen. The small community that is in Tunisia that will probably leave now.
Many Arabs do have Jewish ancestors as they were forced to convert to Islam. The alternative was death.
And TheBrit - Djerba is in Tunisia, not Algeria as you quoted. The website I quoted is a much better source of information.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:21
The Israeli government and Jews around the world all helped settle these immigrants and they are now an integral part of Israeli society. They never received one penny in compensation from the Arab governments that confiscated their properties.
Compare that to the Palestinian refugees. Still languishing in refugee camps in neighbouring Arab countries without citizenship or allowed to work. All those Arab Kingdoms have zone ZERO for their Muslim brethren.
No wonder most Israeli Arabs would rather stay in Israel.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:32
You are correct in general. Many Sephardi Jews, however, do not come from Arab countries but from (e.g.) Bulgaria.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:42
Kahina, the Jews from Arab lands were not refugees in Israel, they were returnees. The Palestinians still are refugees simply because they don't have a national homeland to return to. Yet. Why should Israel's neighbours have granted them political rights? Do you think that all Arabs are the same, irrespective of whether they are from Morocco, Algeria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi etc...?
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:44
Leah, and there are the Jews from Ethiopia, India, Iran, Uganda etc. They are not Arab either. But the point to Stella was that not all Jews are fair-skinned Ashkenazis.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:50
Thanks Leah, yes my brother-in-law's lovely family is from Sophia in Bulgaria. Although But like Joe said, not all Jews are fair skinned, far from it.
Israel is a very pluralistic society, and with the Ashkenaze, Mizrachi and Sephardim intermarrying, these titles will probably become obsolete in 20 years time.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:54
Joe, the Arabs from the various lands all differ and fight horrendously between their own tribes - however what unites them all is their hatred of Israel and sympathy for the Palestinians.
I don't have the solution.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:59
Kahina, intermarriage, for want of a better term, between Ashkenazim and Sephardim in Israel is growing, especially among the more enlightened. Among the Orthodox, however, it's a different story.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 11:01
Kahina, you assume that the Arabs haven't developed their own national identities, that they are still warring tribes. That's a bit old fashioned. Perhaps in some areas -- Yemen, for instance -- that's true, but across the region national identities have been developed, perhaps even more than among Jews in Israel.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 11:17
Joe, a quick answer to your comments before I dash out:
Yup, the Orthodox in Israel only marry amongst their own and the secular population have smaller families and many remain single. Maybe polygamy? Ha ha, just a joke.
And of course I know it's much more complex with Arab nationalism, it seems to change everyday, but gotta dash...
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 11:21
The punishment for polygamy is more than one mother in law
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 12:09
Some of my in-laws are Orthodox; half-Ashkenazi (husband), half-Sephardi (wife).
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 12:15
Leah, are they modern or ultra orthodox?
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 13:04
They are Orthodox. You didn't specify 'modern' (whatever that may be when it's at home) or 'ultra'.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 13:32
I need a good scrub...am I to understand, thanks to the divide-and-conquer TheBrit, that we're brothers and sisters? And it's crossing my mind that nobody genuine would really post with a screen-name that means circuscision!
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 15:24
Stella, of course as Jews we are closely related to others in the Middle East. There are a lot more similarities with us than with native Anglo-Saxons in many ways. Both Jews and Muslims share Abraham as their forefather. Understanding this and working together in joint projects is the slow way forwards towards reconciliation.
ROR is based on religion, not on genetics. If it were so, then it may well apply to many Arabs, because as I stated before, many were forced to convert to Islam.
And Joe, why the hell does it matter how Orthodox Leah's relatives are? Should their kippahs be knitted or stitched? We're never all going to fit into one nice stereotype package.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 15:25
Joe doubts that "that they are still warring tribes"
Just look at what is going on in the entire region, from
Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen etc etc
Do we need any more evidence?
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 16:15
Both Jews and Muslims share Abraham as their forefather
Hardly. Abraham is part of the tribal myths of the Jewish people. He was simply adopted post ipso facto by Muslims, like so much else.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 16:19
Quite right, Jon. The evidence is all there for those who wish to see.
And it's quite breathtaking to claim that Arab national identity is stronger than Jewish Israeli national identity, which is as strong as any other worldwide, and for good reason: it's among the oldest 3 or 4 such in human history, whereas many of the other national identities in the Middle East are 20th century inventions.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 16:31
Jon, what is going on in the Arab countries -- with the exception perhaps of Yemen -- is not tribal. It's mainly an uprising against tyrannical leaders.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 16:36
Leah, Jewish national identity in Israel isn't particularly strong, even after 63 years of independence.
In fact, it could be argued that Jewish national identity lay dormant until the latter stages of the 19th century. Objectively, Zionism is, after all, an offshoot of European national awakenings and other "isms".
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 16:37
Kahina, of course it matters. Modern Orthodox are a completely different kettle of fish than the meshugganah frum.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 17:46
Well, Joe Millis, what can I say? You are completely, indeed spectacularly, wrong on every single point in yours of 15:36.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 18:01
Leah, prove me wrong.
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 19:16
Leah, Israel isn't really a coherent state. It is, in effect, a confederacy of ghettoes - just look at Melchett Mike's latest piece to see what I mean.
Now, up to pretty recently -- let's say the 1990s -- there was a feeling of shared destiny. However, this was based on the assumption that everybody pulled their weight.
Let's start with the, fractured, education system. Until they are 18 and go into the army, non-religious and religious, rich and poor, those from Tel Aviv and those from the "development" towns (you would have thought that after 63 years they would have been developed already), did not mix. There was no shared experience between Jews of different backgrounds, let alone the 20+ per cent of the population who are not Jews.
And I haven't even mentioned the ultra-Orthodox who operate as a state within a state and want nothing to do with those who aren't like they.
After the army, those who serve anyway, everyone returns to their bailiwick. Again, no shared experience and the cycle continues.
Lately, however, and as Melchett Mike correctly points out, fewer and fewer middle class Israelis from the centre of the country serve in the military. That has become the preserve of the extremely nationalistic and religious (the settlers and their supporters) and those who don't know someone who knows someone who can sign a certificate to get their kid out of the army. I might add, that due to the nature of modern warfare and because of budget cuts, the IDF doesn't actually need or want as many soldiers as in the past. Not everyone is seen as pulling their weight. Apart from resentment, this raises the question of what is the weight that is to be pulled and is it worth it.
Now to the provenance of Jewish nationalism. Zionism, the modern embodiment of Jewish nationalism, is an outgrowth of European nationalism. Read Herzl, Hess, Buber and Ehad Haam.
Before Emancipation and the Enlightenment, Jews were about as likely to call for a national homeland (or a return to the national homeland) as they were able to fly to the moon. It just wasn't part of their thinking in "national" Europe.
If any Jew thought about going to the homeland, it was to die -- not to live.
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 14:55
It seems that if you disagree with Joe Millis, your posts get censored. What's the point of bothering with these blogs, then?
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 15:24
In reply to Harvey's comment: "Of course the Palestinians could always renounce their faith and convert to Judaism thus solving the problem of ROR once and for all."
The punishment for converting from Islam is... death. Pretty final.
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 15:29
And the reason why so many Arabs have the same genes is because their ancestors were Jews, and the punishment for NOT converting to Islam was...death.
I personally know many Muslims who had Jewish great-grandparents.
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 15:32
Joe, you know what goes on behind the scenes at the JC, why did Leah have her post censored?
Watchful Iris (not verified)
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 15:56
Did it involve spitting?
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 16:11
Kahina, Leah, etc: I have not been at the jc for almost 5 years so I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes there. The jc is a foreign country and Joe Millis doesn't live there any more. As to why Leah's post was removed I have no idea since I didn't see it.
Fri, 03/11/2011 - 16:33
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