Shot children

suzanna: http://www.dci-palestine.org/sites/default/files/ua_4_10_children_of_the...

this report (from "Defence for Children International, Palestine section", affiliated to Defence for Children International, see http://www.defenceforchildren.org/ ) mentions 24 cases of children (aged 13 to 17) shot in the leg, after warnings, "whilst collecting building gravel, about" 50 to 500 "metres from the border with Israel."

"collecting building gravel"?

isn't that another way of saying "digging holes 50 to 500 metres from the border"?

what else are border guards supposed to do when people are apparently digging holes near the border, in an area where tunnels have been used to kill and capture, and when warnings are ignored?

and why are the palestinians using their children to do this?

and why, when DCI international is campaigning for the rights of children (against slavery, against child labour etc), is its palestine section apparently approving of children as young as 13 to do this dangerous work?

It's always the victim's fault in the eye of the oppressor.

Yes that was a pretty disgusting response from goldfish. The kind of attitude that created this mess.
I imagine the kids getting shot over rode any concern about 13 year olds collecting gravel.

The PSC out in force with more blood libels. The Palestinians use children for all manner of illegal practices includig using schools for the storage of ammunition, human shields, in at least one case as a suicide bomber (failed thankfully) and as in this case digging holes within close proximity to a dangerous border area. But of course their supporters will always moral invert the truth of the situation. Maybe Mary or suzanna would let us know if they had children whether they would allow them dig holes/play in close proximity to a military installation especially where warnings are in place that force will be used and the army has demonstrated that it will not hesitate to enforce those warnings. After the first incident occurred if you really cared for your child would you let him/her be i nthe area at all?

Deftly and daintily stepping around the manic hysteria

suzanna: It's always the victim's fault in the eye of the oppressor.

the children are the victims … it's the fault of the adult palestinians who sent them there

the israelis have been careful to use the minimum force possible (warning, then shooting only in the leg) to prevent tunnelling under the border and another gilad shalit

Mary in Brighton: I imagine the kids getting shot overrode any concern about 13 year olds collecting gravel.

(i repeat, "collecting gravel" is just a euphemism for the dangerous military work of digging holes)

a genuine childrens' charity would try to prevent children from being sent on this dangerous work

they send children because they want children to be (lightly) injured … it's better publicity than when it happens to adult "militants"

Of course there is no evidence that these children are digging tunnels. How on earth could a child dig a tunnel?

But you may as well shoot them any way. That is what terrorists do - shoot children and he unarmed.

suzanna of course has never ben on a beach before. Howver to disprove her contention read this

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4717926&page=1

it begins like this

We had to meet 14-year-old Said in the dead of night, no camera lights allowed. We were just a few yards from the Egyptian border, with Gaza with its spotlights and heavily armed guards.

We walked in silence. Said and his two friends carried sacks on their backs containing their digging tools.

We crawled into the remains of a bombed-out building, feeling our way with our hands. Once inside, the teenage boys told us we could turn on our lights.

Said led us down deeper into the rubble, and then we were on our hands and knees. I have never liked confined spaces, and this was testing my resolve.

We arrived at the tunnel's opening -- a circular shaft reinforced by breeze blocks...

Nuff said!

The tunnels lead into Egypt and are sources for goods. Gaza is blockaded and subject to repeated air strikes and barrages of missiles from Israel.

People who are under siege tend to find ways to relieve the siege.

Mary and suzanna dodge the question - nothing new there.
Would you allow a child of yours to be put in harm's way like this? It seems th Palestinians consider this a fitting way to treat their children - would you?

" The Isaelis have been careful to use minimum force possible. ....

Goldfish WHO told you that?

Shooting is not minimum force.

Minimum force is that used when psycho settlers burn mosques, burn olive trees, attack the army etc etc etc. i e no force at all.

And even allowing for a fevered mind how did the PSC get into this?

Dodging the question Mary yet again - this is a closed military area who in their right minds would allow children to be there for any reason when they have been warned force will be used because likely as not the children are being used as human shields by adult terrorist as they have done many times in the past.

suzanna: Of course there is no evidence that these children are digging tunnels. How on earth could a child dig a tunnel?

there is plenty of evidence that they were digging holes (i did say "digging holes") … not only were they seen by the israelis, but also their own admission is that they were collecting gravel

… and how can you collect gravel without digging holes?

a child (especially if aged 17) can easily dig a hole which adults can later use to start a tunnel

suzanna: But you may as well shoot them any way. That is what terrorists do - shoot children and he unarmed.

no, you may as well warn them, then fire warning shots, then shoot only in the leg

that is what israeli soldiers do … try to cause as little harm as possible to unarmed children

what terrorists do is to try to cause as much harm as possible to unarmed children …

suzanna, can't you see the difference?

oh, and you still haven't answered …

happygoldfish: suzanna, how do you say they should react when they see the beginning of tunnelling?

'Would you allow a child of yours to be put in harm's way like this?'

So child victims are victims because their parents were ‘negligent’whereas those who actually harm them – by shooting at them for example – are not to blame in any way?

Shooting at children is not minimum force and it is barbaric.

'that is what israeli soldiers do … try to cause as little harm as possible to unarmed children'

so they SHOOT them . . . .

Is that supposed to be a joke? We don't want to harm children so we will just shoot them!!!

Suzanna read the link
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4717926&page=1
and calm down - the children should not be put in harm's way if you really cared you would be urging your friends not to let their children be anywhere near the border but like them (there is no negligence the parents encourage them) you use the children cynically for propaganda purposes a severe case of immorality if ever there was one.

I foolishly let my child play out after dark. She is abducte, raped and murdered. The murdere is absolved on account of my neglect.

Is that where you are seeking to take us Goldfish?

Mary - these are Palestinian children after all so to the JudeoFascists they are totally expendable and dehumanised.

That is where Advsr and Goldfish wish to take things.

I understand you have bee a naughty boy Advsr

Mary in Brighton: … Shooting is not minimum force.

at a distance, shooting in the leg is minimum force …

at a distance of over 50 metres (and from the other side of a border fence), what lesser force is available?

suzanna: … Is that supposed to be a joke? We don't want to harm children so we will just shoot them!!!

no, it's perfectly serious, and neighbouring countries would do well to copy this example of israel's compliance with both the letter and the spirit of international humanitarian law …

suzanna, can't you see the difference between deliberately causing minimum injury and deliberately causing maximum injury (and death)?

oh, and you still haven't answered …

happygoldfish: suzanna, how do you say they should react when they see the beginning of tunnelling?

Mary in Brighton: I foolishly let my child play out after dark. She is abducte, raped and murdered. The murdere is absolved on account of my neglect.
Is that where you are seeking to take us Goldfish?

"I foolishly let my child go out burgling, or breaking into people's cars, after dark. He is injured by a householder or car-owner trying to stop him and using reasonable force. The householder or car-owner is absolved, not on account of my neglect, but because that's the law!. But I, and my child, are still at fault!"

SHOOT a child? Are you serious? MINIMUM injury? Are you serious? What kind of modern democracy shoots their children? Wait...there are different rules for Palestinian children, right?

It is not the law that if a child approaches closer to your garden fence then you approve of you can SHOOT him. I fear this is hopeless.

Mary in Brighton: It is not the law that if a child approaches closer to your garden fence then you approve of you can SHOOT him.

you're completely correct, mary … even if he comes right up to the fence, staring at you sunbathing, swearing at you, and playing loud music, you're still not entitled to use any force at all!

civil law does not entitle you to do anything to someone on your neighbour's land, except in self-defence against immediate injury (or criminal damage)

international law, however, does entitle a state to defend itself against preparations for attack …

a child of 17 digging holes to start a cross-border tunnel is certainly preparation for an attack, justifying force under international law

international law forbids the use of children in such preparations … it does not forbid the use of force against such children (though of course the israelis should and do use minimum force)

zaheeryin: SHOOT a child? Are you serious? MINIMUM injury? Are you serious? What kind of modern democracy shoots their children?

a democracy against whom children are used, often as human shields, sometimes (as in this case) in actual military construction

mary, zaheeryin, (suzanna hasn't replied , but …) how do you say the israelis should react when they see children engaged in the beginning of tunnelling, near the border?

Sigh Israel

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