The real big society


By Stephen Pollard
February 14, 2011
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Writing about the Big Society (cringe-makingly awful name for an important and good modus operandi), Ben Brogan hits the nail on the head:

[T]he combined might of Labour’s useful idiots in the voluntary and
charitable sector...are neither volunteers nor charitable – they are
paid and their money comes not from individuals but the state. No
wonder they snap any time a hand reaches to turn off the tap.

The other crucial point here was raised yesterday by Nick Clegg in a seemingly unrelated interview in the Observer:

I need to say this – you shouldn’t trust any
government, actually including this one. You should not trust government – full
stop. The natural inclination of government is to hoard power and information;
to accrue power to itself in the name of the public
good.

Quite so.

COMMENTS

jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:14

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4 points

I'll call it the west bank

Did you ever see a river bank that extended for 40 km from the river? It has been called Judea Samaria for centuries, and called West Bank only since the British Mandate. Which name is more justified, Milligramsam?

One staters are lunatics because they will lead to the destruction of Israel.

So might be the three or four staters, as we should call the incorrectly-named two-staters.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:15

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3 points

You have avoided answering my question above.

And what lunatics, what hate mongers? I see none here. A few idiots perhaps, but I don't see anyone fitting your descriptions.

You don't know what may or may not lead to the destruction of Israel any more than I do. The clear and present threat to Israel's short and long term future is the global campaign of hatred and ill-will directed against it. That will have real and disastrous consequences unless people start telling the truth, however uncomfortable. Your future predictions about demographics are theoretical and imaginary.

So while I'm waiting for you to accept that you were wrong about the percentage of the mandate that is now Israel, I'll address another one of your particularly stupid comments:

Here and now, in the western part the former mandate there are 5.5 million Jews who have full political rights and about the same number of Palestinian Arabs of whom only 1.2 million have political rights.

But they do have political rights - they have the right to vote for the Palestinian Authority. Do you consider it Israel's fault that the Palestinian Authority isn't very good at holding elections?


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:18

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4 points

demographically it makes sense to have ethnically homogoneous states

So you would advocate moving non-Jews out of Israel then would you Millis? Just the kind of thing you have hysterically accused Avigdor Lieberman (the "Moldovan bouncer I think you referred to him as) of wanting? Which, by the way, he didn't!


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:18

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4 points

Depends how you interpret mandatory Palestine.

Mandatory Palestine included present Jordan, that is a FACT, Milligramsam. And whatever the promises the British did to the Hachemites, they didn't respect what they promise to the Jews. And those promises should have been upheld by both SDN and UN and were NOT.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:26

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-3 points

No Matt I do not advocate moving non-Jews out of israel. When Israel returns to the 67 lines more or less, its jewish population will be about 80 per cent of the total and stable. That's about as homogenous as it gets. Yisrael beiteinu wants to remove whole non-Jewish towns and villages and to treat the non-Jews who remain in Israel as 2 nd class citizens (probably as a start towards denying them citizenship).


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:28

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-4 points

Prior, the Palestinians don't have political rights in a state of their own. That would be proper self determination.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:31

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4 points

A 20% Muslim Arab minority is hardly "homogeneous" (does your browser not have a spell checker by the way?). Particularly when a large percentage of those also consider themselves "Palestinian" rather than Israeli. So you support "racial purity" for the Arab state but not for the Jewish one, correct?


amber

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:37

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2 points

Millis, your arguments about demographics and settlements are irrelevant - for this simple reason: there is no-one for Israel to negotiate with. This is not a question of whether Israel will cede more land - it is a question of whether the Arabs will give up on the idea of committing genocide against the Jews. Without this occurring, Israel can be willing to do anything - it will not result in peace. Furthermore, there will still be the same number of Arabs between the Jordan and the Med, whatever the borders. Israel, in the absence of any peaceful intent from the Arabs, may as well be in a stronger position than a weaker one.

Furthermore, I would add that the Palestinian Arabs, through repeated aggression and racist genocidal intent, have shown utterly that they do not deserve a new state. Why should they have one? There is no moral imperative for it. Do you think their aggression should be rewarded? Why is it that the Palestinians can act as abysmally as they like - yet still deserve a second state?


amber

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:38

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3 points

Make Jordan a Palestinian state - it is one anyway (without a Hashemite king).


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:44

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-3 points

Prior, I said it was about as homogenous as it gets. And if Israel, perhaps with the help of the uk taskforce, helps to give the non-jewish minority more of a stake in their country's future, Israeli Arabs might be less inclined towards seperatism. As for the Palestinian state being free of Israelis, I'm sure that you too wouldn't want your occupiers as neighbours after you've gained independence from the occupiers.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:47

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4 points

So you support "racial purity" for the Arab state but not for the Jewish one, correct?

These three and four staters are very supportive of the idea of removing all Jews from the land claimed by Arabs. But not very supportive of those who want to do the reverse from land claimed by Jews. Maybe they can demonstrate together, in favour of ethnic cleansing next time.
The settler problem wouldn't be one if both ignored it while negotiating, like Israel is ready to ignore 'Palestinian' terrorism while negotiating. But the 'Palestinians' don't want to negotiate and PA cannot go against their will lest they are defeated in the next election.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:49

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4 points

I'm sure that you too wouldn't want your occupiers as neighbours after you've gained independence from the occupiers.

Well, I wouldn't want terrorists as neighbours but I got them and I have to cope with that.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:51

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-3 points

Amber, there's no debating with closed minded blinkered ideologues who think that they can take more than three million people, put them on trucks and send them eastwards to a country that won't have them. How will sending the west bank Palestinians eastwards to Jordan -- because that's the only way you might be able to force Jordan into being a Palestinian state -- solve the middle east conflict?
Sorry to say this but the only person whose suggestion is remotely genocidal is yours.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:51

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4 points

And, Milligramsam, if you ask anyone to choose between peaceful settlers and terrorists, I think that would result in 100% for the former.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:53

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4 points

How will sending the west bank Palestinians eastwards to Jordan -- because that's the only way you might be able to force Jordan into being a Palestinian state -- solve the middle east conflict?

How did the Arabs send them from their previous home to Judea Samaria and Gaza?


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:59

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-3 points

And that, Amber, is why one staters are lunatics. They will lead to a war at the end of which, when both sides have finished burying their dead, the problem will still be there and the remedy of a two-state solution will still be the only realistic outcome.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:08

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3 points

Prior, I said it was about as homogenous as it gets. And if Israel, perhaps with the help of the uk taskforce, helps to give the non-jewish minority more of a stake in their country's future, Israeli Arabs might be less inclined towards seperatism. As for the Palestinian state being free of Israelis, I'm sure that you too wouldn't want your occupiers as neighbours after you've gained independence from the occupiers.

Many non-Jewish people do very well in Israeli society, as you well know. There is a Muslim Arab on the supreme court, is there not? As well as Knesset members, diplomats etc? So you're making (not entirely accurate) generalisations about social mobility, job opportunities and schooling, correct? And these problems apply to Jews as well do they not?

As for your second sentence, when you say "Israelis" you don't mean all Israelis, do you? You specifically mean Jews. Let's just be clear about that.

What a bleak vision of humanity you must have where people of different cultures religions will never be able to coexist. And yet Israel in its present state seems to contradict your pessimistic vision of the future, as possibly one of the most culturally diverse countries on the planet living in relative harmony in a very confined space. And that's what you want to "fix"? Hmm. Interesting.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:09

Rate this:

3 points

And that, Amber, is why one staters are lunatics. They will lead to a war at the end of which

The three/four staters who want Israel to relinquish territory that ensures better safety, will lead to the same war anyway.
The 'Palestinians' will do whatever they want, once Israel is made as secure as can be in the area. And Israel will deal with those who will attack it.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:20

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-3 points

Prior, it could be argued that having a non-Jew on the Supreme Court and a couple of non-Jewish diplomats is tokenism. For the vast majority of Israeli Arabs, the picture is far bleaker -- that's why the UK Taskforce is such a blessing and well-done to those involved. Education, infrastructure and resources for the non-Jewish minority are far underfunded in comparison with their Jewish counterparts.
I mean Israelis, Prior, because they are the ones who have been occupying the West Bank.
I wish that Palestinans and Israelis could co-exist, like, say, the Welsh, Scots, English and Irish. However, because of recent history, the situation is more analogous with the Balkans where peaceful co-existence will be nigh-on impossible for a few generations.
If you don't mind me saying so, you seem to have a veryu rosy view of Israel. Next time you go, take a visit to Jasr al-Zarka, it's only a few hundred metres from the villas of Ceasarea.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:29

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3 points

Prior, it could be argued that having a non-Jew on the Supreme Court and a couple of non-Jewish diplomats is tokenism.

What a horribly offensive thing to say. Ismail Khaldi for example worked his socks off to get where he is today. You really are a bit of a closet racist aren't you?


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:34

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4 points

I mean Israelis, Prior, because they are the ones who have been occupying the West Bank.

You mean 'Palestinians' would bat Israeli Arabs from settling in their second or third state, Milligramsam.
No, I think we are very clear that they will bar only Jews from settling there. Maybe Israel should do the same with their Arab population then, since you seem to approve of that, Milligramsam?


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:34

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1 point

"Jose/Yoni1, did that comparison hurt? Good."

God, you are one Nazi shit.

No, it didn't 'hurt', because I know that I am not a Nazi.
You are.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:35

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1 point

"Millis, why do you keep repeating this lie?"

Because he is na braindead antisemite.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:37

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1 point

"to confuse me with Yoni1 only hurts the little reputation you might have left as a reporter"

What reputation? He is an ignorant liar.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:38

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-3 points

Doesn't it say something to you that there is only one Supreme Court Justice who is not Jewish? Or that there are no director general of any government ministry or state-owned company who is not Jewish? Or that there are only a few diplomats who aren't Jewish? Or that the Arab towns and villages are vastly underfunded in comparison to their Jewish counterparts.
If it's racist to point that out, then all those involved in the UK Taskforce are racist too. Go to Jasr al-Zarka, or Sakhnein, or Tel Sheva, or any other Arab town or village and you'll see what I mean.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:41

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-3 points

And when Justice Khalidi was appointed, it was only on a temporary basis. When the Jewish justices get their appointment, it's permanent.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:42

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-1 points

"So you support "racial purity" for the Arab state but not for the Jewish one, correct?"

That's what he keeps saying. He is a racist.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:42

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2 points

No, but saying that those non-Jews who have worked hard and risen to positions of prominence are "tokens" is extremely racist. Those were your words. Scroll up if you don't remember typing them.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:45

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2 points

"It has been called Judea Samaria for centuries, and called West Bank only since the British Mandate. Which name is more justified, Milligramsam?"

Moron Millis keeps proving that he holds Jews qua Jews in contempt.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:46

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1 point

What does "Jews qua Jews" mean Yoni? I keep seeing that around.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:47

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-3 points

Prior, it was a form of tokenism. "Look at us, we've appointed an Arab." Big deal. Treat them as equals and all Arab judges who "work their socks off" could become Supreme Court judges. But the system, as it currently stands, denies them this. And it is for that reason that the UK Taskforce is doing such a sterling job in helping the Israeli government help the non-Jewish minority have a stake in Israel's future. Israel can only exist as a Jewish and democratic state. That is why it is one of the few post-colonial successes.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:49

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-3 points

Anyway, Prior, I see the sicko alter-ego is loosing control again, so I bid you good evening.


mattpryor

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:49

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3 points

To be honest, I would have thought British people would be more concerned about similar problems in the UK, which are on a much bigger scale.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:49

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1 point

It means 'Jews simply because they are Jews', the racist essentialism of people like Millis. To him, Jews are in the wrong individually and as a group simply by being Jews. To him, Arabs are in the right individually and as a group simply by being Arabs.
That's why he lies about the Mandate borders. That's why he calls it the WB.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:51

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-2 points

A total piece of shit who compares Jews to the Horst Wessel song has the brass neck to call other people 'sicko'.
Go fuck yourself, Millis you piece of excrement.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:53

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0 points

"all Arab judges who "work their socks off" could become Supreme Court judges"

You see this man's profound racism and Jew-hatred? ALL Arab judges could become SC judges, even if not up to it; ALL Arab judges, but not all Jewish ones.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:55

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3 points

It is so comforting for Milligramsam to howl with the bandwagon. But the truth is that the 'Palestinians' have the right to settle in more than 82% of British Mandate Palestine, while Jews, who where promised to be able to settle there by the British, the SDN and UN can only live in 18% of it.
Arabs are 11 million, Jews about 6. Let's calculate who got the best part.


Joe Millis

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:04

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-3 points

I don't compare Jews to the Horst Wessel Lied, Jose/Yoni1. I compared you. What a Culture and Media Secretary you are. Gutt nacht


jandrsimonson (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:05

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-4 points

Future demographics are anyone's guess.

Poor Matt, it's so difficult for him to grasp.

Present demographics are not a matter of guesswork. Israel had it's chance, ( a very lengthy one ), to reach a two state agreement that would have guaranteed the Jewish character of Israel but blew it. Now it has no option but to hang on to " Judea and Samaria " as Matt would wish, having made the two state solution impossible.

Of course it will have to hang on to the people that come with it too.

So this state will have roughly the same number of Jews and Arabs in it, so the concept of a Jewish state is dead. Though it may take a few years to lie down.

psst Matt it really isen't rocket science.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:15

Rate this:

3 points

Present demographics are not a matter of guesswork. Israel had it's chance, ( a very lengthy one ), to reach a two state agreement

You mean a three/four state agreement, of course, simonsam.

Now it has no option but to hang on to " Judea and Samaria " as Matt would wish, having made the two state solution impossible.

No, the present solution consists in making a secure frontier. Then, the 'Palestinians' will do whatever they want in the 80% or British Mandate Palestine they will have.

So this state will have roughly the same number of Jews and Arabs

Only in someone's insane dreams. Population will be roughly the same as it is now since little of the annexed area will include Arab population, as they are unwilling to become Israelis.


Jewish American...

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:32

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-4 points

JoseAnth your delusions are so entertaining. I think that is what keeps me here.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:36

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3 points

JoseAnth your delusions are so entertaining.

Where is JoseAnth, simonsam? Show us your paranoia again, please!

I think that is what keeps me here.

What makes you think anyone gives a damn, simonsam?


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:41

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-4 points

JAP...and Yonithan hasn't even gotten here yet.


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:47

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-4 points

I take that back...I see Yonithan has been in in all his profane glory. Stick around long enough and JoseAnth and Yonithan will start in on each other....want some popcorn?


Jewish American...

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 20:48

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-4 points

No thanks Iris. I have all on stomaching one of them at a time.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 21:11

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5 points

"I don't compare Jews to the Horst Wessel Lied, Jose/Yoni1."

I am not Jose, you digusting little piece of shit.

You promised to piss off for the night, shitto - can't you stop lying even for one second?

"I compared you"

Only a piece of excrement compares a Jew to a Nazi song, you antisemitic shit.

"What a Culture and Media Secretary you are"

Any idea what shitto is screeching about now?


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 21:13

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3 points

"Israel had it's chance, ( a very lengthy one ), to reach a two state agreement that would have guaranteed the Jewish character of Israel but blew it"

Can't you just smell the glee and Jew hatred?

You can't reach an agreement with people sworn to annihilate you, moron.

And there is no such thing as 'rocket science', idiot.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 21:15

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1 point

There is no such person as 'Yonithan', Moronic Iris.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 21:43

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3 points

and JoseAnth and Yonithan

Where are JoseAnth and Yonithan, Myopic? Show us your paranoia again? It seems that all the antisemitic bunch is paranoia stricken. Of course, when one lives in an antisemitic environment, it is difficult to understand that there is more than one Israel supporter. Therefore, all of them are the same person.
Or maybe they are so used to taking multiple pseudos that they think everyone does the same!

Either way, their paranoia appears clearly.


Yoni1

Tue, 02/15/2011 - 21:49

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1 point

Antisemitism is a mental illness. It should come as no surprise that they are paranoid, too.
And of course, more specifically, antisemitism involves the paranoid delusion that 'the Jews rule the world and they are after you and will catch you in their tentacles and use your blood for matzot'.

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