Settlements - the view from Jerusalem

why are all the media saying that the E1 construction would divide the west bank in two?

a similar gap has never been any problem to israel (not even before 1967)

the 10 mile (15 km) gap that would join the north and south west bank

is the same as the 10 mile (15 km) gap that has always joined north and south israel (between the mediterranean and tulkarm, on the west bank)

Is Mr. Pollard a bit nervous?

"why are all the media saying that the E1 construction would divide the west bank in two?"

Maybe because the media you have in mind are more reputable than Robespierre's Committee of Public Safety, sorry, I mean Honest Reporting.

The mood is one of white hot fury in Europe as well. And sensible Israelis know that in a face off between Israel and Europe.....well it's a slam dunk.Is there a bookie in the house ? The timing for Bibi, just before an election, is terrible. The Europeans have put him between a rock and a hard place. He either backs off and is seen for the untrustworthy wriggler that he is, or he doesn't back off and is seen as a crazy man driving Israel over the cliff.

The people I feel most sorry for in all of this are are Matthew Gould and Daniel Taub, particularly Daniel who is a man of peace and genuine goodwill.How he would just love to represent an Israel that was divested of all this nonsense. I bet he just wants to....

My difficulty is that the Israeli government tell us that the UN vote was meaningless, as of nothing. Nothing is changed and nothing will be changed, " on the ground ".

Then I am told that the mood " in Jerusalem " is one of " white hot fury ".

Getting into a mood of white hot fury over nothing seems a bit neurotic at the very least.

And if Israel is so desperately in need of 3000 homes and at the same time serious about peace and two states it surely would find a less provocative place to build them.

Building them elsewhere wouldn't do. It's about competing chutzpah. Israel has an overriding emotional need to punish the world. However much it hurts itself in the process is not an issue for today.

Mary in Brighton: Getting into a mood of white hot fury over nothing seems a bit neurotic at the very least.

I am sure that staying up so many nights composing your first thing in the morning rants can't be good for your health.

But anyway....you fail to address Mary's point that responding to meaninglessness with " white hot rage " does seem rather schizophrenic.

The major point is that Israel's response is craziness at its most naked.It merely caused Europe and now Australia to make it clear where the red line is.France has already started using the S word. Opinions about the settlements are varied. But only rabids deny that they are a " problem " if not a barrier. To deliberately compound an acknowledged serious problem is surely a clear sign that the present Israel govt is not interested in a deal. For " the present Israeli govt " you can read Israel, because by the time Bibi is gone it will be too late. One European diplomat opined that the thing has a year,18 months maximum, to run.

Time is not on Israel's side. Ask who needs a Palestine state and the honest answer is Israel and the wannabe apparatchiks of the PA. The Palestinian people don't need one as such. In fact there are respectable arguments to the effect that they would be better off without one.They need an end to this status quo which is almost unbearably stressful but if there is not to be a state then the quicker that is acknowledged the better, then the thinking anew can start.

Eventually the PA will tire and take Erekats advice and hand the keys back. Then the de facto one state will be there for all to see. Those that dream this one state can be run on apartheid lines with Jewish sovereignty over the non Jewish inhabitants,are, well, dreamers.

Fake Zionist I don't care who you want to rely on - tell me what would happen if one day you are walking along the road and unseen by you a 16 ton truck comes hurtling towards you and a member of the IDF Spokesman's office who just happens to be walking towards you tells you to watch out because there is a vehicle approaching. Would you pay him no heed because of course you can't trust anything he says can you?

I live opposite E1 there is a four lane highway which separates it from Ma'ale Adumim on which Palestinians are free to travel and do so. So tell me please who do you trust someone who lives there or newspapers who have a penchant for it getting wrong - always!?!

Real Real Zionist: … you fail to address Mary's point that responding to meaninglessness with " white hot rage " …

("fury", not "rage") i did little other than to address her claim that there was a contradiction … 6 of my paragraphs begin with either "it is "meaningless" " or "it has caused fury" you and your friends have the unfortunate habit of not bothering to answer whatever you don't like, and instead making personal attacks on the writer, disparaging any source that puts the israeli side, or (in this case) claiming that it hasn't answered the previous question here you ignored the media lies about "dividing" the north and south west bank by dismissing a perfectly good map on the grounds of its source ("honest reporting") …

Real Real Zionist: "why are all the media saying that the E1 construction would divide the west bank in two?"

Maybe because the media you have in mind are more reputable than Robespierre's Committee of Public Safety, sorry, I mean Honest Reporting.

here's a different map, this time showing the whole area … … i suppose again you're going to attack the source, instead of actually commenting on the media lie?

I didn't say it was a contradiction I said I agreed that it was somewhat schizophrenic.

To be honest ( unlike honest reporting ) I don't really care about your maps. But they are not just media lies thay are FO lies and European lies.

It hardly matters. The point is if there is to be a deal EVERYONE knows what it will look like.

ie

Two states roughly along the pre @67 frontiers.

Israel keeps the existing major settlement blocs with compensatory land swaps.

A shared capital ie Jerusalem.

That is the only possible deal because there is nothing else that any Palestinian negotiator could possibly agree to. If it is impossible for Israel to agree to that then agreement is impossible. If that is the case lets acknowledge it and quit with the bs.

Virtually nothing makes two states absolutely and physically impossible. But building new settlements particularly in such an important area decreases the chances of an agreement when we are already close to the tipping point into impossibility. The Europeans see that that is the Israeli motivation ( apart from having an emotional need to have a hissy fit ) But to repeat the bleedin blindin obvious for there to be a deal there has to be agreement. If facts are created such that the only deal available is one(s) that can't be agreed to it is time to move on and let the thinking anew begin. Israel's loss.

And I am extremely gratified to learn that I have friends.

correction: the thinking anew has already begun. Let it be brought centre stage.

Happy, unfortunately, your maps tell only part of the story. Although Maaleh Adumim is indeed a town 15 kilometres from the Jordan River, its municipal boundaries stretch almost to Jericho.

By building in E1 (not Whitechapel, although who knows with this Israeli government ;-)), Israel would in effect be creating an expansion to the River Jordan, thus bisecting any possible Palestinian state. And for what? Hubris?

Unfortunately, the current - and probably the next - Israeli government seem to be doing the dastardly delegitimisers job for them. And that, I hope you will agree, is very short-sighted indeed.

"So tell me please who do you trust someone who lives there or newspapers who have a penchant for it getting wrong - always!?!"

Jose if by " someone who lives there " you mean you, I have to say if you told me it was Tuesday I wouldn't act upon it without getting it independently checked out.

Real Real Zionist: I didn't say it was a contradiction I said I agreed that it was somewhat schizophrenic.

isn't that the same? … "schizophrenia: (in general use) a mentality or approach characterized by inconsistent or contradictory elements"

Real Real Zionist: … they are not just media lies thay are FO lies and European lies.

It hardly matters.

lies do matter, even if they are about israel and you certainly shouldn't criticise those who point out such lies

Real Real Zionist: Virtually nothing makes two states absolutely and physically impossible. But building new settlements particularly in such an important area decreases the chances of an agreement when we are already close to the tipping point into impossibility. The Europeans see that that is the Israeli motivation ( apart from having an emotional need to have a hissy fit )

Real Real Zionist: If facts are created such that the only deal available is one(s) that can't be agreed to it is time to move on and let the thinking anew begin …
correction: the thinking anew has already begun.

now who's being schrizophrenic?! i agree … the vote, and abbas's speech have begun a new line of thought … they have created a two-track peace process … the israelis will be following the security council resolution 242 track, requiring the arabs to give israel secure and recognised borders, free from threat of force, and with israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders, with adjustments (that track has the backing of the united states and europe) the palestinians will be following the general assembly resolution 194 track, requiring israel to allow about 5 million palestinian refugees the "right of return" into israel itself (that track has the backing of the vast majority of the general assembly) oh well … at least, with two tracks, there's no chance of a collision!

Inconsistency is not the same as contradictory. When two propositions cannot be true together or two or more implications in ( seemingly ) one proposition ( eg Pegasus doesn't exist ) cannot be true together then we have a contradiction.

Contrariness and contradictory are entirely different logical categories.

To declare something meaningless and then get into a white hot rage about it is contrary, but not contradictory. A schizophrenic typically exhibits cotrary behaviour not contradictory behaviour.

" oh well … at least, with two tracks, there's no chance of a collision! "

Or any kind of meeting. Oh well one state it would seem to be then. I am not going to waste energy discussing who's fault it is. It won't matter. Israel will cease to be as a Jewish state. Hardly matters whose fault it is.

Fake - the feeling is mutual but there again I know what I write is the truth you on the other hand wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

Millis - Ma’aleh Adumim Mayor Benny Kashriel has issued an open invitation to all the European ambassadors to visit E1 and see for themselves that building on that tract of state land within Ma'ale Adumim's municipal boundaries won’t harm the creation of a Palestinian state.

So why don't you go and see what I see every day of the week instead of soaking up Arab lies. At least four/five years ago when this first surfaced the media were truthful enough to state that "the Palestinians claim..." now they are stating it as "fact". The good old tell a lie make it a big one keep repeating it and it soon takes on the appearance of truth.

'Thus Israel's response in announcing the housing units is born of a bitter reaction to the
wholesale international swallowing of the Palestinian narrative'

So, of course, your narrative is correct and just but the democratic opnion of all the nations that voted for (or abstained) is due to their being deluded and unable to make rational decisions based on objective fact?

You are all democrats - so you claim, so respect the democratic vote of the UN. You all claim to want a two state solution so accept the two states that the world has endorsed. It's the way forward.

suzanna since when was the UN a democracy.
As Abba Eban famously remarked if Algeria proposed a resolution condemning Israel because the earth was flat because Israel had made it so 113 nations would vote for the resolution 33 would abstain and 9 would vote against it.
The Palestinians do not want a two state solution if so why are they insisting that millions of their citizens should not live in their own State but live in another State - Israel i.e. the so-called "right of return"?
The whole thing is a myth and the sooner the world wakes up and gets wise the better.

Interesting that Hague has said economic sanctions against Israel are not,at this time, on the table.

Think about that one. Something that would never have entered anyones head a couple of days ago, that was unthinkable is now being thought about. And the French also are now using the S word. Next stop where ?

Well done Bibi !!!!! I want to be in your lifeboat !!!!

Israel's Legal Right to Judea and Samaria is enshrined in International Law!

A cold, hard look at the law reveals an undeniable if inconvenient (for some) truth: Israel and the Jewish People have full sovereign rights to Judea and Samaria.

http://shomroncentral.blogspot.co.il/p/5-legal-rights-to-samaria.html

Michael Gottlieb: … the law reveals an undeniable if inconvenient (for some) truth: Israel and the Jewish People have full sovereign rights to Judea and Samaria.

Gimmie a break...precisely because Israel has full and exclusive sovereign rights to the land means that the settlements - all of them - are 100% legal. The issue of settlement and sovereignty go hand in hand.

"...even if we assume that "national home for the jewish people" means a state and sovereignty, the mandate still does not specify that it covers the whole of palestine" - actually, the original intent WAS the whole of Palestine, which included what is today the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, but Winston Churchill unilaterally and illegaly lopped off eastern Palestine and gave it to the Hashemites, leaving the Jews with Western Palestine only. Western Palestine is the land from the Med to the Jordan River,which is what everyone is fighting about.

If it unclear to you why Israel has exclusive sovereignty over the "West Bank", read this link in its entirety:

http://shomroncentral.blogspot.co.il/p/5-legal-rights-to-samaria.html

If you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to address them.

Sorry Michael, the Mandate went no further than to mandate the Mandatory to implement the Balfour Declaration.

The Zionists pressed for the wording " the establishment OF Palestine AS the Jewish National Home. "

This was SPECIFICALLY rejected by the cabinet in favour of
" the establishment IN Palestine of a JNH."
So WHERE in Palestine was never specified.

Further whatever the British meant by JNF it is clear that it didn't mean a Jewish State.

Nor did it envisage Jewish sovereigny over, and subjugation of, another people ( that's why I'm a REAL Zionist. Geddit ? )

PS The Mandate ended in 1948.

Michael Gottlieb: … Israel has full and exclusive sovereign rights to the land …

this is fantasy

Michael Gottlieb: If it unclear to you why Israel has exclusive sovereignty over the "West Bank", read this link in its entirety …

i've done a word-search for "sover", and i can confidently say that the article gets no further than "… ever since the end of WWI, no Arab entity has ever had any legal sovereign rights to Western Palestine"

The Fake Zionist obfuscates again and like all liars he is so good at it.
The establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine why not in all of it? - was any of it to be excluded? Thought not.
it is clear that it didn't mean a Jewish State Only clear to you. But that's history isn't it? There is a sovereign state and it's called Israel and it is the State of the Jewish People and as such is the Jewish homeland. In the same way that Germany is the homeland of the Germans and Denmark is the homeland of the Danes etc etc. Ah but I was forgetting the Fake doesn't accept the existence of an entity called the Jewish people. Pity for him Am Yisroel Chai.

Oh and as for subjugating another "people" what "people" are you talking about? The only mention of a people in any of the UN resolutions passed in 1947/8 was the Arabs - so what "people" are you talking about? Also in 1947 the Arabs were given the opportunity to create an Arab State (it was never to be called Palestine was it) in most of the land that was supposed to have been set aside for a Jewish Homeland? They rejected it. The Arabs who remained in Israel are not subjugated are they?

"There is a sovereign state and it's called Israel and it is the State of the Jewish People and as such is the Jewish homeland."

Jose you are 70 per cent correct. Except it is the state of whoever is citizens of it. And it has internationally recognised borders. If it only would stick to them we could all move on and argue about Hull City's chances of promotion..

Not all liars are good at it. Some have their lies smeared all over their faces like ice cream over the face of a child. Oh sorry Hoff I didn't see you there.

Only Israel's borders with Egypt and Jordan have now been formally recognised.
The borders with Syria and Judea and Samaria are still in dispute. The State of Israel's has no borders with the territories of Judea and Samaria (an integral part of the Jewish Homeland) and the Gaza Strip other than the 1949 Armistice Line, and the ceasefire line with Syria which runs along the UN-monitored boundary between the Golan Heights and Syrian controlled territory. So another obfuscation from the Fake Zionist.

joemillis1959: … your maps tell only part of the story. Although Maaleh Adumim is indeed a town 15 kilometres from the Jordan River, its municipal boundaries stretch almost to Jericho.

the closest its boundaries get to jericho is alon, about 10 km south-west of the centre of jericho and over 15 km from the jordan or the dead sea …

joemillis1959: By building in E1 … Israel would in effect be creating an expansion to the River Jordan, thus bisecting any possible Palestinian state.