A Proms protest with a whiff of Weimar about it (Telegraph)


By Stephen Pollard
September 3, 2011
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My take on Thursday's Proms disruption. It's here http://goo.gl/Wn5JD

COMMENTS

Jonathan Hoffman

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 10:45

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Name names....

Here are some names of the disrupters ...

Tony Greenstein
Deborah Fink
Bruce Levy
Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi
Willem Meijs
Sue Blackwell

If anyone knows more, please post here or email me, confidentiality guaranteed.


jonathancohen (not verified)

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 11:18

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Harvey Garfield disrupted a gig. And the 35s disrupted some bolshoi ballet and red army choir performances in the 70s. Some of them are still alive so you can have your own little Salem witch trials against them.


Jonathan Hoffman

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 11:33

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If you don't know the difference then you are even more thick-headed than we thought, 'jonathancohen' aka "tsarfati" aka "T-Sam" aka Millis


jonathancohen (not verified)

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 11:51

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These blogs are something else. Not only is there some Christian fundamentalist claiming to be an orthodox jewish west bank settler,there's also some nobody who makes up names and wants to go on a witch hunt. Who is this jonathanhoffman person? Is he/she for real or is it just a made-up name?


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 12:16

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Iris , jonathancohen asked you a question. If you were a true lady you would answer the gentleman.

JonathanH what are you planning to do with these names? You do make me laugh


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 14:03

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Mr. Cohen, our Jonathan is the one in the black wooly. He's very real, I'm afraid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBH6XONDpes


Jon.

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 14:58

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@JonathanHoffman

I love how you've ended a 'name and shame' post with "If anyone knows more, please post here or email me, confidentiality guaranteed."

The irony is delicious.


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 15:27

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RRZ....and who are you to cast aspersions on my ladiness? Hmmm? Rumor has it our own Amber has a glorious 5 o'clock shadow...and a wooly hat too.


Yvetta

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 15:55

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What a pity that Mr Pollard, who has written a first-rate piece in the Telegraph, continues to tolerate insulters of Israel and Jews on these blogs.


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 16:14

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What's really a pity is that these blogs have been dominated by abusive extremists and their various aliases for so long that the world gets a poisoned and skewed view of what Jews are all about. Not all Jews agree with Israel's policy. But these abusers have made it impossible to debate this because of their abusive language and tactics.

You don't have a woolly cap too, do you Yvetta?


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 16:27

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ha ha ha ha


Advis3r

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 16:45

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In your case Watchful let's be frank you don't agree with Israel's policy whatever it may be.


Advis3r

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 16:53

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jonathancohen probably a member of the Trotskyist SWP whose name is probably nearer to "Ali" than "cohen" is unable to tell the difference between an Orthodox Jew and a Christian Fundamentalist sort of puts the other things he says into perspective. I don't claim to be an Orthodox Jew living in Judea I am an Orthodox Jew living in Judea and if you can't or won't accept that - that's your problem from what you write it is obvious you have difficulty discerning the truth in any event.


Advis3r

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 16:54

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jonathancohen probably a member of the Trotskyist SWP whose name is probably nearer to "Ali" than "cohen" is unable to tell the difference between an Orthodox Jew and a Christian Fundamentalist sort of puts the other things he says into perspective. I don't claim to be an Orthodox Jew living in Judea I am an Orthodox Jew living in Judea and if you can't or won't accept that - that's your problem from what you write it is obvious you have difficulty discerning the truth in any event.


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Mon, 09/05/2011 - 17:02

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You don't get to decide what I believe, Advis3r, but don't get a nosebleed over it.


Stanley Walinets

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 10:54

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How disgraceful that these people should demonstrate against Israel's behaviour at a musical concert in the Royal Albert Hall. And that these people regard themselves as Jews! They MUST be self-haters. AND anti-semites. No self-respecting Jew would behave in such a way.

Er....
Er.. .... ...

In the early 1980s Zionists, campaigning to force the Soviet Union to allow Russian Jews to go to Israel, used identical tactics. Music lovers with long memories can recall disruption of a Soviet performance of Rimsky-Korsakov's Russian Easter Festival Overture at London’s Royal Festival Hall. A Russian soprano singing with the BBC Symphony Orchestra was also targeted.

Er ...
Goodness gracious me - Zionists? But they're Jews, aren't they? Must be some mistake....


Advis3r

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 12:32

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Obviously Walinets you are so morally repressed that you are unable to discern the difference between the disgrace that occurred at the Proms last week and the legitimate demonstrations in the 1970s and 1980s against the repressive Soviet regime which in its time slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Jews, sent thousands more to Siberia where they perished in great suffering and prevented millions of others from leaving to seek freedom in their own homeland. But that is no more than we have come to expect from you.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 15:31

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"But that is no more than we have come to expect from you."

Well at least everyone, including those slow on the uptake, now knows what to expect from YOU


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 15:34

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Though I, being uncommonly smart, sussed you way way back.


Ben F

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 15:37

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How way back? As far back as his blacklisted dictator days?


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 15:52

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Drawing false moral equivalence is a hallmark of the fatr Left Israel haters - it's in their genes


Advis3r

Wed, 09/07/2011 - 16:56

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The dummies not having any intelligent to say try to make out I am someone I am not - a clear case of OCD.


Stanley Walinets

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 14:14

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Hello again, Advisr3....
So tell me - when is a Jew not a Jew? When is a Jew justified in demonstrating against a major injustice, and when not?

Is the Jew who demonstrates against a nation which behaves evilly against thousands of Jews, respected as a 'legitimate' Jew? While the Jew who demonstrates against a nation which behaves evilly against thousands of non-Jews, a 'disgraceful' Jew?

How do we judge and condemn evil behaviour by a State? Does it depend on which particular brand of human being is suffering? And how many?

And if the nation's victims are non-Jews, is the demonstrator therefore not worthy of the name Jew?

There you are then - some nice thoughts you can use to wipe the floor with me.


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Fri, 09/09/2011 - 15:22

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Stanley rocks!


Stanley Walinets

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 09:47

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Watchful Iris - Sorry love, don't understand what you mean - could you decode for me?
Jonathan Hoffman - What's this, Jonathan - first strike in a new form of war - War of the Websites?


Advis3r

Mon, 09/12/2011 - 12:18

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In case he missed it ...

Mr Walinets claims that Israel is evil in fact so evil that he considers to be on a par with the former USSR in its treatment of the Palestinians. He cites no evidence for this - I am sure he can come up with an incident here or there but that would be consistent with every democratic nation where occasionally wrongdoing occurs; even by the much vaunted British Army which is not fighting a war on its own doorstep against terrorists who seek its very destruction.
However I challenge him to produce evidence of a consistent official policy by Israel of subjugation and evil against Arabs and the Palestinians in particular such as the Soviets carried out against the Jews who were persecuted for even attempting to practise their religion let alone seek the freedom to live in Israel.
Today, within Israel, Jews are a majority, but the Arab minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights and are represented in all the branches of government. Some of the government’s harshest critics are Israeli Arabs who are members of the Knesset.
The situation of Palestinians in the territories is different. The security requirements of the nation, and a violent insurrection in the territories, forced Israel to impose restrictions on Arab residents of Judea and Samaria that are not necessary inside Israel’s what were the pre-1967 borders. The Palestinians in the territories, typically, dispute Israel’s right to exist within any borders whereas Jews living as full citizens in Russia did not seek the destruction of the USSR, only the right to live as Jews.
Despite continued Arab intransigence and their failure to curb terrorist activity or as they agreed to do dismantle the terrorist infrastucture Israel agreed to give and has given the Palestinians increasing authority over their own affairs. Today 98% of Palestinians live under the control of the PA or Hamas.
The principal impediment to Palestinian independence is not Israeli policy, it is the unwillingness of the Palestinian leadership to give up terrorism and agree to live in peace beside Israel. Now they seek to obtain from the UN what they are unable to achieve through negotiation.
It is however telling that despite all their criticism, when asked what governments they admire most, more than 80 percent of Palestinians consistently choose Israel because they can see up close the thriving democracy in Israel, and the rights the Arab citizens enjoy there. By contrast, Palestinians place Arab regimes far down the list, and their own Palestinian Authority at the bottom, with only 20 percent saying they admired the corrupt Arafat regime in 2003.
Mr Walinets' allegation that the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians are evil is at best misguided at worst it shows a complete lack of a moral compass.


Stanley Walinets

Tue, 09/13/2011 - 10:33

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Advisr3 - thank you for a politely-worded response - much better than the shrieks of outrage (justified or not) which characterise so many responses from people who can't bear views they disagree with.
Which of course isn't to say I accept all you're saying.

"Mr Walinets claims that Israel is evil in fact so evil that he considers (it) to be on a par with the former USSR in its treatment of the Palestinians."

I didn't claim the two nations' evils to be 'on a par'. I was simply pointing out that if it's ok to criticise a nation for its ill-treatment of people of your own kin, it's equally right to criticise another nation for its ill-treatment of people NOT of your own kin: ill-treatment of human beings of any kin is deplorable, and deserves condemnation. That is so even when the ill-treating nation happens to be the one you belong to. In fact if it's your own nation that's behaving badly - even evilly - that's all the more reason for you to condemn it, publicly.

You challenge me "to produce evidence of a consistent official policy by Israel of subjugation and evil against Arabs and the Palestinians in particular, such as the Soviets carried out against the Jews who were persecuted for even attempting to practise their religion ."

How do you regard Israel's determination that the Palestinians shall not be allowed to treat that part of Jerusalem, their historic al Aqsa Mosque in the Temple Mount area, as the key part of their religion's history that it is; but on the contrary to steadily evict the community that's lived there for generations, by for instance endlessly excavating beneath Silwan until the land their homes are on slowly subsides beyond habitation?

"The security requirements of the nation, and a violent insurrection in the territories, forced Israel to impose restrictions on Arab residents of Judea and Samaria....."

Er - let's translate that, huh? Eg:- 'The security requirements of settlers on the Arab residents' West Bank territories, which Israel chooses to describe as "Judea and Samaria", forces the Arab residents to defend the territory stolen from them by reacting with what Israel and its settlers describe as terrorism'. Might that translation fit better with the facts of 'terrorism'?

Finally you say:
"Mr Walinets' allegation that the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians are evil is at best misguided at worst it shows a complete lack of a moral compass."

I'm sorry, Advir3, your compass needle appears to be stuck. You mentioned at the start of your contribution you were sure I "could come up with an incident here or there but that would be consistent with every democratic nation where occasionally wrongdoing occurs.." In other words, if I merely mention occasional examples, they prove nothing. That's true, but it's a cop-out. We could both come up with 'incidents here and there'. I can only say, many incidents we hear of are very powerful and can only be discounted if we keep our heads firmly in the sand.
So I'll offer just one incident, the most recent of many, which I do think demands more serious consideration than you prefer to allow. It's rather too long for the present already very lengthy blog, so please look it up on my own latest blog, launched Sep 12th, headed "How to make friends and influence Palestinians"

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