Resolution 242 and all that.


By Rich Armbach
May 27, 2011
Share

It is inexplicable that the Greater Israel lobby is such a big fan of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, given that this resolution requires that, on the conclusion of the appropriate peace agreements , Israel will withdraw to the frontiers as they were prior to the 1967 war.

That Israel chooses to “ interpret “ the resolution as meaning that it is required to withdraw from just some of the occupied territories is ludicrous and desperate, verging on the pathetic.

The resolution ....” Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include both the following principles...

1)Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict “

Now you would think that it couldn’t get any clearer than that. And you would be right. It couldn’t. And yet , laughably, Israel chooses to “ interpret “ the provision and comes up with the quaint notion that “ territories “ , in the absence of a definite article, means some , not all territories.

A UN resolution is quasi legislation. The first stop in applying legislation is the plain ordinary meaning of the words. Where the plain ordinary meaning of the words is clear, the question of interpretation doesn’t arise.
Who is the judge of the ordinary meaning of words ? Why the ordinary users of the language of course.

“ Don’t buy used cars off that man, he is a crook.” Does the absence of the word “ any “ mean you should buy some used cars off that man ? Of course not.

“ Don’t eat biscuits out of the red tin.” Does this mean don’t eat some of the biscuits ? Of course not.

“ Dogs must be kept on leads near ponds in the park.” Does this mean near just some of the ponds ? Of course not.

If a head teacher issued an edict saying “ At the end of term pupils must remove personal belongings from the school premises “, what would it profit a pupil to say, “ well she probably means just some belongings so I’ll leave my guitar, my cricket bat and my drum set “ ? You are right it wouldn’t profit him at all.

Where the question of interpretation does arise (in this case , has we have seen, it doesn’t ) it is appropriate to ask, not what the drafters intended, but what the legislators intended. So in an internal UK situation, a judge will ask himself what parliament intended, not what the drafters intended. What did MP’s think they were voting for ?

So in this case we might ask ( if the ordinary meaning of the words wasn’t so perfectly clear ), not what the drafters of the resolution had in mind, but what the members of the security council thought they were voting for. And there is no doubt that the majority had all the territories in mind as the Russians and the French continually testify.

That so and so has subsequently said this and subsequently said that is irrelevant. It’s what the resolution says that counts.

And even if what the drafters had in mind was relevant it wouldn’t help the Greater Israelers that much. Dean Rusk, the then American Secretary of State said “ We never contemplated any significant grant of territory to Israel as a result of the six day war”. Lord Carodan said “ The parties assumed that withdrawal from occupied territories as provided in the resolution was applicable to East Jerusalem”.

As a matter of interest the UN has six official languages and they all have the same status. In all of the five other languages the definite article IS THERE. So even if we accept that the absence of the article changes the meaning ( which as we have seen it doesn’t ) the resolution requires Israel to withdraw from all the territories by a majority of 5 to 1 languages.

It is also interesting to note that the resolution reaffirms the UN Charter principle that territory may not be acquired by war.

“ ......inadmissability of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just peace. “

Since this is in the context of the six day war it particularises the general principle and says Israel may not acquire territory as a result of this war.

COMMENTS

Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 11:35

Rate this:

0 points

"inexplicable, ludicrous and desperate, verging on the pathetic, laughably, quaint notion ... etc ...etc"

What a lot of rhetoric - far more than intellect.

Gunnar Jaring, Rogers, Kissinger, Albright, Baker - we've seen 'em all, and none of these powerful people have made Israel move one inch in the last 44 years. Only Rabin's collossal stupidity and Sharon's evil managed to do that.

Next Monday we mark 44 years since the Six Day War; on Wednesday (June 1st) we celebrate the 28th day of Iyar, the day Jerusalem was finally re-unified.

The rhetoricists can keep on huffing and puffing for another century; Jerusalem will still be unified, and if our Arab cousins keep on the way they are going now, they'll eventually lose whatever parts of Eretz Yisrael over which they currently have control.

For next Wednesday (starts Tuesday night): Chag Sameyach!


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 11:44

Rate this:

0 points

I see Reiss is in favour of one state between the River and the Sea. Just like Hamas.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 11:52

Rate this:

0 points

Are you Reiss's spokesman? I doubt it,like most other people he probably doesn't deal with liars.

So far, you've identified yourself well as a Hamas spokesman, so I believe what you say about them.

Personally, I believe in one state in the Land of Israel: the State of Israel. Your hatred for it proves to me that I'm in the right direction.

And when are you going to reply to the accusations that you have deliberately falsified news reports?


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 11:58

Rate this:

0 points

No, I'm not your spokesman, Reiss. Your belief in one state between the River and the Sea will lead to the demise of Israel. So who's doing Hamas's work for them. Jewish sovereignty has always come to a crashing end because of extremists like you.
And as I said before: being accused by you, Reiss, is like getting a Righteous Among the Nations medal from Yad Vashem.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:01

Rate this:

0 points

"Righteous Among the Nations medal" - on that I can agree with you - you are no Jew.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:05

Rate this:

0 points

" Your belief in one state between the River and the Sea will lead to the demise of Israel"

- prove that statement.

"Jewish sovereignty has always come to a crashing end because of extremists like you."

- prove that statement; both of the above are wild, halucinatory statements. Where do you buy your mushrooms?


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:12

Rate this:

1 point

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


Advis3r

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:19

Rate this:

0 points

Yep the Arabs are absolutely adept at it by now. They tried in 1948, 1967, 1973, and through two intifadas and are still at now. You would have thought they would have learned by now that Israel as the Jewish State is here to stay and that they should reach an accommodation with it rather than deny its existence - but tell that to Hamas.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:36

Rate this:

0 points

- or to Millis; he'll be sure to pass it on at his next briefing.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:38

Rate this:

0 points

Reiss, if you don't get that Israel can't exist as a Jewish and democratic state with a non-Jewish majority ruled by a Jewish minority then there is no hope for you.
Remember the Sicaarii -


simoneq

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:39

Rate this:

0 points

Kramer writes
on Wednesday (June 1st) we celebrate the 28th day of Lyar, the day Jerusalem was finally re-unified.

In keeping with everything Israel stands for don't you mean "Liar" ?


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:39

Rate this:

0 points

Mr multi-aliases and Reiss, you tell Hamas. After all, you are doing their work for them.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:44

Rate this:

0 points

Well, Miliis, I at least am putting my money where my mouth is: I live here in Israel, hope or no hope.

You chose not to live here - unless for some reason you can't enter Israel ...

So why don't you invest your feeble efforts in furthering your chosen environment, instead of firing cowardly at Israel from what you consider a safe distance?

If the Arabs' plight troubles you so much that you write 5-6 posts a day here, why don't you go to Gaza and do social work there?

And you have been accused of falsifying news reports; why don't you offer some defense?


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:47

Rate this:

0 points

simoneq: "In keeping with everything Israel stands for don't you mean "Liar" ?"

You will probably be very sad to learn - and that will make me very happy - that Nazi Adolph Eichman (one of yours) was executed by Israel around midnight 31st May, 1962 - which JUST HAPPENS to be ... 28th Iyar, the day Jerusalem was unified, 5 years later.

Smoke that.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:57

Rate this:

0 points

Reiss, you can accuse me of whatever you like. It's a badge of honour for me. It makes me feel like Einstein getting the Nobel Prize.
Can't enter Israel? Oh, you make me laugh. I must tell that one to the people from Kiryat Ben-Gurion who pick me up at the airport every other month. They'll laugh too and then wonder which numpty is behind the joke.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 12:58

Rate this:

0 points

Simon, Reiss doesn't represent Israel. He represents a minority within a minority within a minority. A dangerous, violent minority, but a minority nonetheless.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:06

Rate this:

0 points

I see no difference between simoneq and Millis.

But I'm not in for a slanging match.

Millis, you've uttered extremist and halucinatory statements,and have been asked to verify them. You obviously can't.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:14

Rate this:

0 points

Millis has been in the past Telegramsam, Iain Rabbak, Moshe Tzarfati and jose, so he thinks everyone else is like him and uses aliases.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:20

Rate this:

0 points

You are hilarious, Reiss. I've only ever posted under this name.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:22

Rate this:

0 points

... and falsified news reports under that name, and have offered no defense for this.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:23

Rate this:

0 points

Reiss, you also need to remember that Israel is the state of the Jewish people, and what with Bibi speaking on behalf of all Jews in Congress this week (despite the fact that more Jews voted for Obama than for him by a ratio of about 2:1), all Jews have a say on Israel. Even those you hate. And I take much joy and comfort in that you hate so much.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:23

Rate this:

0 points

Being accused by you, Reiss. A present from God.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:27

Rate this:

0 points

"all Jews have a say on Israel"

Millis, you forget yourself; you are a fascist, not a communist.

You don't pay taxes, serve in the army, risk your life in any way, as do Israelis.

Your stance is more of those old Muppets, Waldorf and Statler, sitting and heckling from the balcony in The Muppet Show.

Knock of the "equality" crap. It doesn't convince anyone.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:40

Rate this:

0 points

Reiss, I know you really hate it, but it needs to be said: Israel is the state of the Jewish people. All Jews have to have a say on it. Even the majority who don't live there. Otherwise, it's not the state of the Jewish people. So what's it to be, Reiss?


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:41

Rate this:

0 points

Speaking of muppets, where's your mate Mr Multi-Aliases?


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 13:55

Rate this:

0 points

"The State of the Jewish People" doesn't give you voting - or sniping - rights. Not all Jews have a say on it.

Once you have said "I will not live in Israel" - which you de facto have done - your rights have been frozen.

"No taxation without representation" works the other way around as well.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:12

Rate this:

0 points

You, Reiss, are in no position to determine rights. Jews have every right to have a say on Israel, otherwise it isn't the state of the Jewish people. Perhaps that's what you want. A state for Orthodox and ultra-nationalist Jews. Good luck with that.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:13

Rate this:

0 points

Where have I said that I will not live in Israel, Reiss? Chapter and verse.


JonOtway

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:18

Rate this:

0 points

This is the United Kingdom, a real western democracy. Anyone has a right to say what they want about anything, subject to the very proper laws concerning incitement to violence, religious, ethnic hatred etc


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:23

Rate this:

0 points

I really don't know why Reiss is so keen to post here, since I am told he has been violently abusive about the JC editor Stephen Pollard and its chairman Anthony Julius as well as some of its senior staff. I'm told the daft apath has delusions of grandeur and thinks he can prevent people entering Israel.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:34

Rate this:

0 points

otway, are you telling me that you have the right to express opinions on how Switzerland (or Swaziland) for that matter, as if you live there?


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:37

Rate this:

0 points

millis, "Where have I said that I will not live in Israel, Reiss? Chapter and verse."

I said explicitly, DE FACTO - by not living in Israel you have made a statement. That is your current position.

Come and live here, and maybe you'll enable the extreme left in the Knesset to nebech add %00.1 to the extreme left's feeble election appearances. But until then, rights-wise you are a nonentity.


Advis3r

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:40

Rate this:

0 points

As usual these posts are reduced to a slanging match I wonder why the JC ever thought it would ever be otherwise?

Meanwhile in the real world Israel's true friends are at work:

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=222506


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:44

Rate this:

0 points

"I really don't know why Reiss is so keen to post here,"

I can't speak for Reiss, but I've seen that he's documented hundreds of anti-Israeli statements from Israelo-phobes like yourself, who have slandered Israel in the JC Blogs.

B'Yisrael, anu lo mafkirim et hamigrash l'oyev.

People like you defame Israel in the hope that British anti-semites won't connect you with Israel.

It didn't work in Nazi Germany.

Maybe Reiss has it all wrong, and the correct way to stop JC anti-Israeli attacks is to create great British anti-semitism that won't distinguish between pro- and anti-Israel supporters. That would keep you busy.

I've seen that Reiss has exmained the Royal Family's Nazi roots - maybe that would be a good place to start.

Have to examine that thought further ...


Advis3r

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:44

Rate this:

0 points

So much so I am thinking of asking the gabbai in Schul tomorrow to say a special tefilla for Mr Harper and Canada.
Avram Burg should hide his face in shame - his father zt"l must be turning in his grave.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:55

Rate this:

0 points

Advis3r, agree with you re- Harper, but didn't understand the reference to young Burg - although I agree with the sentiment.

Did you know he'd taken out French citizenship.

His daddy failed with his party (reduced it from 12 mandates to 6) and failed with his son.


Ian Kramer

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 14:59

Rate this:

0 points

knocking off for Shabbat


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 15:00

Rate this:

0 points

Reiss, you hate it so I'll repeat it. Israel is the state of the Jewish people. All Jews. Even those you hate. Especially those you hate, in fact. So why do you post here after your vicious attacks on Stephen Pollard, Anthony Julius and others? That's some chip on your shoulder. Is it kosher?
People like you and Mr Multi-Aliases give Israel a bad name in order to create anti-Semitism.
Attah hu ha'oyev.


Joe Millis

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 15:01

Rate this:

0 points

Reiss, it was Zevulun Hammer z"l who took NRP from 12 to 6. Burg Senior was the one who built it up to 12. Get your facts right.


amber

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 15:59

Rate this:

-1 points

The author of this piece is profoundly mistaken. Resolution 242 does NOT require Israel to withdraw to the ceasefire lines of 1948 (often erroneously called the 1967 borders - they were never borders nor were they devised in 1967). The authors of the resolution have made this clear in numerous interviews.

How can one take a blog seriously when the opening sentence is an outright lie?


amber

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 16:01

Rate this:

-1 points

JC, millis has accused Kramer of being Reiss, and he has accused me of being Jonathan Hoffman. This is rich, considering the name under which he used to post.

Is this acceptable?


amber

Fri, 05/27/2011 - 16:08

Rate this:

-1 points

millis, your vicious attacks against Mr Hoffman are fine, are they?

Who do you think you are? You are a massive ego who thinks he has exclusive rights here.


Ian Kramer

Sat, 05/28/2011 - 17:25

Rate this:

-1 points

amber, millis DOES have exclusive rights here. When I posted details of how he had falsified 2 news reports, they were deleted by the Moderator. He is obviously a New Isarel Fund lackey, because everything he writes follows their policies.


Joe Millis

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 09:10

Rate this:

0 points

ROFL, the more you post, Reiss, the more we know who you are


Joe Millis

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 09:11

Rate this:

0 points

Jonathamber, you are the self-publicist with the massive ego.


Ian Kramer

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 10:39

Rate this:

0 points

Well, Millis, you've now been cayght lying here 3 times in succession, in a few days; we are slowly exposing who you are.


Joe Millis

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 11:22

Rate this:

0 points

I think it needs to be said again, Reiss: to be accused of lying by you is a gift from God.


amber

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 14:03

Rate this:

0 points

millis, you are telegramsam, are you not?


Joe Millis

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 14:23

Rate this:

0 points

No, Amber, I am not

POST A COMMENT

You must be logged in to post a comment.

LATEST COMMENTS