Good things come to those that wait


By Real Real Zionist
February 16, 2012
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First let me say that " postphoned " is a very diplomatic choice of words.

Because I choose not to quibble with "there is such a thing as anti Israeli racism ( as opposed to anti semitism ), doesn't mean I am comfortable with the language. Many people wanted to see an end to the Soviet Union but I never heard it called racism. But like I said I will play. I won't quibble.

The problem with these kinds of empirical statements is that regardless of how many confirming instances there are just one counter example renders them false.

This why scientists say there are no scientific facts just theories.We have varying degrees of confidence in these theories. Take the theory that water boils at 100C at sea level.We have so much confidence in this theory that we act as if it were a fact rather a product of inductive reasoning.When we get on an airplane we express confidence in a whole host of theories since we have not encountered any counter instances.

How do the statements you invite me to agree with rate as theories ? Not very well I am afraid.

" Seeking the destruction of Israel...." That is probably the best bet. " Destruction " has apocolyptic undertones. The destruction of Israel would involve the destruction of many people. When people think Israel they think Jews. So I would say that that is genocidal anti semitism.

However, variants such as " a bad idea ", " should be dismantled ", " should not have come about " , etc not so. To say that these ARE racist is false because there will be any number of counter examples. Why can't you be content with the entirely true statement that such things are often motivated by racism ?

Will deal with the singling out thing tomorrow. Got up late ha ha ha .

PS don't be too hard on Jose. After all it was a free education ha ha ha

COMMENTS

happygoldfish

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:32

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have i got this right?

you say that seeking the destruction of many of the population of israel is racism

you say that a historical comment that the creation of israel in 1948 was a bad idea, or should not have happened, is not racism

you spent all night working on that??

ok, now answer my perfectly clear question, that your blog-title indicates i've been waiting for

do you agree that denying israel's right to exist, or seeking its destruction, is anti-israeli racism?

for the benefit of new readers: this phrase is from the (november 2010) ottawa protocol of the interparliamentary coalition against antisemitism (http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism...) … "singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction"


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:36

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Erm no. You have not got it right.

And I did a lil sleeping too. Is that not allowed?


happygoldfish

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:46

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Real Real Zionist: Erm no. You have not got it right.

ok, what did i get wrong? …

happygoldfish: you say that seeking the destruction of many of the population of israel is racism

you say that a historical comment that the creation of israel in 1948 was a bad idea, or should not have happened, is not racism


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 13:29

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Ok you have the advantage on me in that I, being the kind of person that I am, generously , for the sake of argument, accepted your terms of reference, in order that there coulld be some dialogue I see now that too much generosity can be a fault.

So I am going to start over. If you are getting poor answers it is because you are asking poor have you stopped beating your wife type questions


Advis3r

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 14:36

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Goldfish again I admire your patience but you can obviously see that backed into a corner he chooses a coward's way out and tries to move the goalposts.
May I suggest we help him out.
"Saying that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a bad idea, or should not have happened, is not racism" is an opinion. Do you hold that opinion? Yes/No?


happygoldfish

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 14:46

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Real Real Zionist: If you are getting poor answers it is because you are asking poor have you stopped beating your wife type questions

no, it's because the answers are not to the question i asked

i keep asking the same question, and you keep answering different questions (in one case, by interpreting "destruction of israel" in a way that obviously neither the inter-parliamentary coalition against antisemitism nor i could possibly have meant, in another by claiming that "anti-israeli racism" can't exist)

do you not recognise these (almost identical) questions …

and doesn't your blog-title indicate that you were claiming to answer them?

happygoldfish:

Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong.
But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.

rrz, singling out israel for destruction is obviously anti-israeli racism

do you agree?

and (ok, less obviously) also antisemitism, since it singles out jews as the one people whose national home is to be destroyed

happygoldfish: rrz, i say that (to use words from the ottawa protocol of the ica( http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism...)) …

singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction

is anti-israeli racism

do you agree?

happygoldfish: why are you unwilling to discuss anti-israeli racism? do you say it doesn't exist?

(and it's a much easier issue than antisemitism)

do you agree that singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium is anti-israeli racism?

and do you agree that denying israel's right to exist, or seeking its destruction, is anti-israeli racism?

happygoldfish: ok, now that you accept that "anti-israeli racism" makes sense, we can return to the question about it that you postponed answering …

do you agree that singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium is anti-israeli racism?

and do you agree that denying israel's right to exist, or seeking its destruction, is anti-israeli racism?

happygoldfish: but for now

do you agree that singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium is anti-israeli racism?

and do you agree that denying israel's right to exist, or seeking its destruction, is anti-israeli racism?

and most recently …

happygoldfish: ok, now answer my perfectly clear question, that your blog-title indicates i've been waiting for

do you agree that denying israel's right to exist, or seeking its destruction, is anti-israeli racism?

rrz, do you agree that i keep asking the same question?

is there any chance that you'll answer it??


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 15:05

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Yes you keep asking the same, but poor questions, and an answer can only be as good as the question. But nonetheless I am going to answer them again.

Btw does the protocol say "...... is anti Israeli racism " or does it say "......is discriminatory and hateful" ( not that I care what the protocol says ) except that you keep referring to it


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 15:11

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Please send the link to it again


Advis3r

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 15:14

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A prime example of the avoidingthe question fallacy.

To explain - The fallacy of avoiding the question is a type of fallacy of avoiding the issue that occurs when the issue is how to answer some question. The fallacy is committed when someone’s answer doesn’t really respond to the question asked.

Example:

Question: Would Machester United be in first place if they were to win tomorrow’s game?

Answer: What makes you think they’ll ever win tomorrow’s game?

See RRZ above at 14:05 for another example of this.


happygoldfish

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 15:15

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Real Real Zionist: Btw does the protocol say "...... is anti Israeli racism " or does it say "......is discriminatory and hateful" ( not that I care what the protocol says ) except that you keep referring to it

the protocol (see my first quote above) (the link is in the second quote)) says (as you know):

"......is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest"

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