Boycott The Guardian


By Real Real Zionist
January 31, 2012
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For happygoldfish ......since I was so rudely interrupted by Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Or rather Mr Hyde and Mr Hyde.

There is nothing wrong with the English in the sentences you example. I never said there was anything wrong with the English in " Anti Zionism is anti semitism " , merely that it was a dumb thing to say.

It is often used in such a way that the speaker seems to employing the " is " of identity, even interchanging between " is " and " same as " ," equivalent to " etc. There is no point in arguing about this, it is a purely empirical observation. Advs3r/ Jose/ Anthony/ blackie does so his very self on the previous blog if you would care to take a look and see. If your experience is different to mine we will just have to leave it at that.

While there often seems to be a number of different " is's " there is really just the is of identity and the ontological is ( unless we admit the dubious case of the existential is ) " I think therefore I am " ( is )..

So if on any occasion we don't have the is of identity we have the ontological is.The is that refers to the being of a person or thing or phenomenon. Anti Zionism consists of anti semitism, anti semitism is a property of anti Zionism, anti Zionism is made up of, among other things, anti semitism. Monkey chanting on the terraces is made up of racism.

But there is a great deal of difference between " chicken is meat " and " anti Zionism is anti semitism ".
" Chicken is meat " is a NECESSARY TRUTH because being meat is a NECESSARY PROPERTY of chickens. You can't be a chicken if you aren't meat.

Famous examples provided by Saul Kripke include the queens parentage and the atomic number of gold. Could the queen have had different parents to the ones she actually had ? Not if we mean Elizabeth. How could this very woman have had different parents ? It could only be true that the queen had parents other than those people >> if the queen was someone other than Elizabeth. And how could something with an atomic number other than 12345 ( whatever it is ) be gold ? And how could something with atomic number 12345 not be gold ? Having atomic number 12345 is a necessary property of gold. Having atomic number 12345 is the ESSENCE of gold.

Are you claiming the same status for " Anti Zionism is anti semitism " ? And " monkey chanting on the terraces is racism " ? Are you saying antisemitism is the essence of anti zionism ? That you cant be anti zionist without being anti semitic ? That only anti semites can be anti zionist in the same way that only meat can be a chicken ?

We can argue phiosophically about whether only meat can be a chicken but since every chicken ever known to man has been meat just as every piece of gold has had atomic number 12345 is strong empirical evidence in favour of a particular view.

Are you saying that every anti zionist there is or ever has been is or was anti semitic ? What about people like Einstein who change their mind quite a bit ? Was Einstein anti semitic on some days but not others ?

It doesn't even have the status of monkey chanting on the terraces is racism.

The reality is that anti Zionism is anti semititism is purely stipulative. It is because I AND/OR SOME COMMITTEE OR OTHER SAYS SO.

So here we are trapped in the contradiction of trying to speak a private language, just like humpty dumpty. And as I pointed out on another blog, speaking a private language was the surest sign that humpty was nuts.

COMMENTS

happygoldfish

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 13:40

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2 points

Real Real Zionist: ......since I was so rudely interrupted …

yes, the usual suspects were rather dragging your original blog about

let's recap where we'd got to: you started …

Real Real Zionist: It never ceases to amaze me just how dumb much of the stuff that is said on here is. Most of it said in all sincerity and seriousness.

Today's example....." Anti Zionism is anti semitism". Get your head around that if you possibly can.

The "IS " here is the is of identity. "Anti Zionism IS anti semitism "

The simple fool proof test of whether this or that IS this or that, is the test of substitutivity. We should be able to substitute one word or expression for the other in ANY sentence without loss or change of sense.

So " There was a great deal of anti Zionism in Moorish Spain " ,has as much, and the same,sense as " There was a great deal of anti semitism in Moorish Spain" .

and i replied:

do you seriously say there is anything wrong (with the english) in saying …
"why can't i have milk with my chicken? chicken isn't meat"
"chicken is meat!"

or, closer to your example …

"making monkey noises on the terraces is racism"

what is the difference between those examples and

"anti-zionism is antisemitism"

and you replied:

Real Real Zionist: Goldfish bit tough to deal with on my phone I will address your question when I get hhone.

Real Real Zionist: There is nothing wrong with the English in the sentences you example.

i take it that you now accept that in the phrase "Anti Zionism is anti semitism", the "is" does not have to be (your phrase) "the is of identity"?

that is all i was saying … there is nothing wrong with the english in those perfectly natural examples, in which the "is" is not "the is of identity" …

so you were wrong to claim that "Anti Zionism is anti semitism" cannot possibly be true (ie, to claim that it was an identity)

(of course, if you'll quote an example (preferably with a link) in which the context shows otherwise, then i'll comment on it )


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:02

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-1 points

It seems that dumbo-Millis doesn't like to see his stupidity exposed, by an number of posters, not just me.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:05

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-1 points

Dumbo-Millis still confuses the 'is of identity' and the 'is of classification'.
One is rather delusional as far as physical entities are concerned, the other is perfectly legitimate, and especially in the case of "Anti-zionism is [a form of] antisemitism".


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:17

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0 points

So, what dumbo has proven here is that his assumption that we are dealing here with an 'is of identity' is plainly wrong. Then he gets to the conclusion, based on this false assumption, that the statement itself is wrong.

Ever seen worse logic ?


happygoldfish

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:30

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-1 points

oh get off the page, you idiot …

go back to the other blog and blather on there

rrz and i came to this page to get away from you lot

jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:42

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-1 points

And you'll never make me believe rrz is not a troll since he used my profile picture and seems to see me in every poster, although I haven't been posting on the JC for a year and a half.
This gives a good idea of the kind of persistent paranoid we are dealing with, doesn't it?


happygoldfish

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:52

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-1 points

(jose, you don't blog, you clog )

jose: The 'other' blog was deleted by Millis, btw.

what are you talking about?

the other blog is still at http://www.thejc.com/blogs/real-real-zionist/boycott-the-guardian-0 or http://www.thejc.com/node/62762

go back there!

jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 14:59

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0 points

Anyway, wherever dumbo-Millis posts his stupidities with my profile picture and goes calling all people by my name is obviously a case of provocation. So don't be sorry, rrz had it coming.


Advis3r

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 15:37

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-1 points

RRZ Millis or whatever your name is please explain what is dumb in saying Anti-Zionism is (a form of) anti-Semitism?

Nothing you have so far said actually addresses the point. Maybe to return to a previous post you should tell us what Zionism means.

Many of your arguments are fallacious because you are mixing identity with condition. Simple example 100 degrees centigrade is boiling point - identity, 100 degrees centrigrade is hot - condition.

Someone inadvertenly may say something which in context is anti-Semitic but out of context is not. That is why the EU working definition says "could taking into account the overall context". Here the overall context is a denial of the Jewish people's aspirations towards the establishment of their own state and so denying the Jewish people such a right could in context be construed as being anti-Semitic.

Furthrmore anti-Semitism is in the eye of the beholder as is all forms of discrimination. Let's see you go up to a group of black kids and jokingly call them the N word. Your life would be measured in milliseconds and rightly so but you didn't mean to be racist after all they use the word among themselves don't they? So in context it is racist just as I consider someone denying my right as a Jew to have my own State is anti-Semitic which is anything but dumb.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 15:47

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0 points

Dumbo-Millis is unable to make a correct argument. It is not worth trying to educate him, he is just trolling the JC.


Advis3r

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 16:26

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1 point

"Advs3r/ Jose/ Anthony/ blackie does so his very self on the previous blog if you would care to take a look and see. If your experience is different to mine we will just have to leave it at that."

Wriggle wriggle just like a worm. But Millis that is what you have always done right?

Given his previous form I would not be surprised if "Jose" is Millis too after all he uses the same picture.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 16:53

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1 point

Advis3r, do my arguments look as dumb as those of Millis?
Please show some respect!


KatieCarslake

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:19

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-1 points

I don't think I have witnessed anything as amazing as this in my entire life. Not even when I taught primary school. Advis3r/Jose you do know what they say about talking to one's self, don't you?

JC, do you want your blogs to become known as a safe house for nutters?


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:40

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1 point

Well, since paranoids are nutters and your "Advis3r/Jose" betray you as such, I may keep the key of the asylum.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:46

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1 point

For the moment, the JC is a safe house for all that hates Israel and Jews in England. Well, not all. Millis is unpacking and has little time to post. But he'll be back soon.
JC, I suggest banning KatieCarslake and Mary in Brighton. Plus a number of Millis' avatars, as it can be suspected to have at least three, two of them under his own name.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 17:52

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-1 points

happy goldfish there is little point in responding to you at the moment. I will do so after Jose has come out of his current major episode.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 18:12

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1 point

Hey rrz, did you quit calling me "Anthony" or "Blackie" or "Advis3r"?
Does that mean that you are finally taking your medicine?


jose (not verified)

Tue, 01/31/2012 - 18:16

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0 points

Anyway, you cannot answer to Goldfish or whoever because your whole argument is based on a false premise that we are dealing here with an 'is of identity'.
All others correctly mentioned that it wasn't and agree on the classification type of the 'is'.
So try better next time!


happygoldfish

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 10:15

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-1 points

Real Real Zionist: happy goldfish there is little point in responding to you at the moment. I will do so after Jose has come out of his current major episode.

i have to agree with you


zaheerayin

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 10:34

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-1 points

Seriously, I hope he's ok. He didn't seem too well.


jose (not verified)

Wed, 02/01/2012 - 14:23

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1 point

@goldfish: agree with an idiot, be one !


happygoldfish

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:45

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0 points

Real Real Zionist: happy goldfish there is little point in responding to you at the moment. I will do so after Jose has come out of his current major episode.

happygoldfish: i have to agree with you

jose's profile has now been removed, so it seems the moderators have banned him, at last!

so let's start again …

Real Real Zionist: It never ceases to amaze me just how dumb much of the stuff that is said on here is. Most of it said in all sincerity and seriousness.

Today's example....." Anti Zionism is anti semitism". Get your head around that if you possibly can.

The "IS " here is the is of identity. "Anti Zionism IS anti semitism "

The simple fool proof test of whether this or that IS this or that, is the test of substitutivity. We should be able to substitute one word or expression for the other in ANY sentence without loss or change of sense.

So " There was a great deal of anti Zionism in Moorish Spain " ,has as much, and the same,sense as " There was a great deal of anti semitism in Moorish Spain" .

and i replied:

do you seriously say there is anything wrong (with the english) in saying …
"why can't i have milk with my chicken? chicken isn't meat"
"chicken is meat!"

or, closer to your example …

"making monkey noises on the terraces is racism"

what is the difference between those examples and

"anti-zionism is antisemitism"

and you replied:

Real Real Zionist: Goldfish bit tough to deal with on my phone I will address your question when I get hhone.

Real Real Zionist: There is nothing wrong with the English in the sentences you example.

i take it that you now accept that in the phrase "Anti Zionism is anti semitism", the "is" does not have to be (your phrase) "the is of identity"?

that is all i was saying … there is nothing wrong with the english in those perfectly natural examples, in which the "is" is not "the is of identity" …

and so you were wrong to claim that "Anti Zionism is anti semitism" cannot possibly be true (ie, to claim that it was an identity)

(of course, if you'll quote an example (preferably with a link) in which the context shows otherwise, then i'll comment on it )


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:04

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0 points

Yes that discussion did rather get forgotten amid the mayhem. Ok


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 10:26

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Yes I was wrong.

I wrote as if " anti Zionism is anti semitism" ( hereafter referred to as aZas) was invariably and always an identity statement. Clearly that isn't the case. It very often is but not always.

You will recall the point was that aZas was a dumb thing to say, and gave the fact that it was an obviously false identity statement as the demonstration of that.

So while aZas is ALWAYS a dumb thing to say it is not ALWAYS for that reason.

I think you will accept that where it IS an identity statement it is dumb.

But where it isn't an identity statement what is it ? Well it isn't a necessary truth like " chicken is meat", or "gold has atomic number 1234." So all we are left with is that it is an EMPIRICAL statement.

Now your problem here is that left as it is, unqualified, we only need ONE counter example to show it to be false.

So even where aZAs is not an identity statement it remains dumb. It is so OBVIOUSLY false it is a dumb thing to say.


happygoldfish

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 11:39

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Real Real Zionist: I wrote as if " anti Zionism is anti semitism" ( hereafter referred to as aZas) was invariably and always an identity statement. Clearly that isn't the case.

ok, that's the only point i was making

Real Real Zionist: It very often is but not always.

careful! "anti Zionism is always a form of anti semitism" is not an identity … maybe it's true and maybe it isn't!

Real Real Zionist: But where it isn't an identity statement what is it ?

(as "anti Zionism is always a form of anti semitism") it can be automatically true without being an identity (ie automatically true one-way but not both-ways)

Real Real Zionist: Are you claiming the same status for " Anti Zionism is anti semitism " ? And " monkey chanting on the terraces is racism " ? Are you saying antisemitism is the essence of anti zionism ? That you cant be anti zionist without being anti semitic ? That only anti semites can be anti zionist in the same way that only meat can be a chicken ?

it depends what is meant by "Anti Zionism" …

racists tend to mean different things by "Zionism", sometimes in the same sentence

often they use "Zionism" to mean (eg) religious dogmatism that the west bank belongs to jews, and then use "Zionism" in its usual sense, of supporting the (continued) existence of a jewish state … then, since almost all british jews do the latter, it follows that they are "Zionists" and therefore also do the former

i think you know that my position is to follow the Interparliamentary Coalition for combating Antisemitism (http://www.antisem.org) …

see its Ottawa Protocol (november 2010) at http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism... in which (after citing the eumc (now fra) definition of antisemitism) it makes the following unconditional condemnation:

Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong.
But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.

rrz, singling out israel for destruction is obviously anti-israeli racism

do you agree?

and (ok, less obviously) also antisemitism, since it singles out jews as the one people whose national home is to be destroyed

rrz, if you wish to take this discussion any further, i suggest you start a new blog on it (preferably with a blog-title that's actually relevant, if only to lessen the likelihood of off-topic contributions from the usual supsects )

Real Real Zionist

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 14:02

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Well that didn't turn out to be very good advice ? How's your weather forecasting ?

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