to save you the trouble and expense of buying a copy

Between 1948 and 1967 there was no so called occupation and no settlements
During that period there was an unrelenting litany of terrorist atrocities committed by arafats fedayeen on israels civilian population within the green line
It begs the question , why did the Palestinians fail to declare their nation state during that period . Purely rhetorical as it is patently obvious that statehood within the west bank and gaza was never the prime objective which was the annihilation of the Jewish state
In 1967 Nasser took his opportunity to carry out just that and failed
No one is under any illusion that palestinian aspirations have changed in the slightest since then
At least with Hamas , what you get is what is on the label whereas the venal PA say one thing but mean another
You and your ilk conveniently choose to airbrush historical fact and which fails to fit your biased hate
Palestinian intransigence , belligerence which led to the 67 war resulted in their taking 10 steps back . There is a cause and effect to all our actions and the Palestinians are no exception to that rule
In the absence of an irrevocable peace accord and the recognition of israel as a Jewish state for the Jewish people why on earth would israel cede one metre of territory to a declared existential enemy

Indeed. Harvey, there is cause and effect to all our actions. And the occupation of the West Bank is causing Israel to slide towards apartheid, the effect of which will be its demise.
Also, are you now admitting that the Palestinians saw themselves as a nation before 1967? That's progress, I suppose.

Millis
For your part you seem quite prepared for a return to 67 borders with a resurgent Hamas within a few kls of israels main population centers and certainly within range of ben gurion airport with all that entails
You are never prepared to address the main theme of my post which is why did the Palestinians fail to declare their nation state before 1967 and as to how their position has changed since then . Hamas will not accommodate any irrevocable peace treaty with israel . The PA maintain their demand of ror which would mark the end of israel as a Jewish nation as well you know
And yet your prime concern is not the immediate existential threat of the
above but secondary threats relating to demography
While that is an issue to be addressed , the visceral threat of a Islamist shill for Iran on israels doorstep is wholly unacceptable to any one who has israels security at heart .
It says much about you that this concept seems to slipped off your radar

Actually yes , I did see the Palestinians as a nation before 67, much the same as now
The only problem is that vision as I understand it from Palestinian pronouncements includes all lands from the river to the sea
Is that acceptable to you millis
A simple yea or no will suffice

Harvey, demography is the existential threat facing Israel, not big upped paper tigers like Hamas or hizbollah. If you think Israel can't deal with such paper tigers outside its borders then you have a very poor view of Israel.
Obviously I am not in favour of a one-state solution. Why would I support their or our extremists?

Your priorities are skewed
Hezbollah and Hamas are not paper tigers especially when parked on israels door step
You remain remarkably casual on the question of israels security

They are totally paper tigers. They pose a threat only to those who want to spread fear and hatred, the exact opposite of the basis for Israel - hope. The threat is that if they didn't exist, someone would have to invent them as a "bogeyman".
Unlike you, I have every confidence in Israel's ability to counter such pathetic creations. You really do have a very poor view of Israel.

Supposedly 40K rockets held by Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon many of them capable of reaching every major population centre in Israel in some minds pose less of a threat than the so-called Demographic time bomb we keep hearing about. However that time bomb has fizzled out if it ever existed.
Today, in Israel, there are 5.7 million Jews and 1.45 million Arabs, with another 1.5 million Arabs living in the West Bank. With the Gaza Strip fenced off and separated from Israel, Jews now enjoy a 2 to 1 majority in Israel and the West Bank.
The demographic momentum has also recently shifted. Since 2000, Jewish fertility and immigration have been above, and Israel Arab fertility has plummeted below, all scenarios considered by Israel's demographers and the ICBS. Specifically, Jewish births have grown by 40 percent since 1995, while total Arab births have fallen back to decade-ago levels throughout Israel and the West Bank.
Large segments of the Orthodox Jewish population display the highest fertility rate at 4.8 births per woman, followed by Arab groups at 3.5 births per woman, while the large secular and traditional Jewish majority displays rising fertility rates of 2.2 births per woman. The latter group has become the determinant factor propelling Jews beyond the modest expectations set by Israeli demographers.
Moderate but persistent net aliyah (new Jewish immigration minus emigration plus returning Israelis) at current levels of 20,000+ per year are sufficient to keep Israel's Jewish majority steady until 2025, when the current Jewish baby boomers begin to have children. The bottom-line shows Jews holding a strong demographic advantage today in Israel and the West Bank, exclusive of the Gaza Strip.
The threat of Hezbollah and Hamas is real and in due course will have to be neutralised by whatever means is deemed appropriate.

Before Israel's creation, Arab historians derided Palestine as a zionist myth. Funny how after 1967, they stopped claiming that.

The article in Economist failed to provide balance. No mention is made of the many fewer Israeli checkpoints or the high economic growth rate in the past couple of years in the West Bank as terrorist attacks have diminished. I'm not sure that the improvements would continue if full independence were granted.

Historically, after every war, terrority changes hands. If the occupants don't like the new regime, they emigrate. In what other part of the world do such refugee problems fester for so long, and where refugees are placed in camps for worldwide public relations? We should keep how King Hussein threw Palestinians out of Jordan after they revolted against his leadership.

Even if Israel had no civilian settlement in the valley, it would still need to maintain military control until such time as a genuine peace treaty were signed. By genuine I don't meaned forced, or where a signer says one thing for western consumption and quite something else for their Arab breatheren.

Israeli rule there may not be democratic. Yet, that's preferable to surrender without a genuine peace.

Amazing Otway with one stroke of the pen wiped out 100,000 so-called Palestinians. He quotes the Economist which also provides no evidence or context for the supposed reduction in the Arab population of the Jordan Valley - somehat contradicts the Demography claim - but obviously the Israel bashers want it both ways we must leave Judea and Samaria because of the demographic time bomb and we must also leave because we are ethnically cleansing the Arabs living there.
The Economist is no friend of Israel. For example according to a March 6, 2010 article traffic lights in Jerusalem "flick green only briefly for cars from Palestinian districts while staying green for cars from Jewish settlements for minutes."
When pressed to provide evidence for this wild charge, the Economist provided a list of intersections at which drivers from Arab neighborhoods are allegedly forced to wait at long red lights to make way for those from Jewish neighborhoods. Shortly afterward — coincidentally, or not — Al Jazeera English broadcast a short news segment purportedly demonstrating the discrimination at one of the intersections named by the Economist.
An investigation revealed that the Economist and Al Jazeera claims were absurdly false — the latest examples of how even the most benign irritations encountered in quotidian life are manipulated to demonize the Jewish state. In fact, the discrepancy between the timing of red and green lights is related, as in cities across the world, to street size and traffic flow, affecting cars from both Arab and Jewish neighborhoods equally.
But Otway would claim that this is evidence of apartheid.

"advis3r", between the river and the sea - Israel, the West Bank and Gaza - the area controlled by Israel there is a now a non-Jewish majority.
5.5 million Jews in Israel, 1.8 million non-Jews.
West Bank has 3.5 million non-Jews, gaza (not occupied but controlled by Israel) 1.5 million non-Jews.
Total: 5.5 million Jews and 6.8 million non-Jews. That's a real existential threat to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.
It seems both you and Harvey have this galutish view of Israel as some nebbischer nothing, not the high/tech, economic miracle that it really is.
Shame on you anti-zionists.

I really do not understand why you need to paint Israel as some kind of nebbish? What purpose does this attitude serve?

I see voicing security concerns is acting like a nebbish and 40,000 rockets are nothing over which to be overly concerned. I assume on that basis that your home has no locks on the doors and windows because most burglars are really just paper tigers and although they may do considerable damage to your home and loved ones you’ll get them in the end. Yes your claims are as foolish as that sounds.
Perhaps you can provide evidence of your 3.5 million non-Jews living in Judea and Samaria I don’t include Gaza. Even if for one moment I accept your outlandish claim that Israel occupies Gaza what has that to with Israel retaining Judea and Samaria from which you want it to withdraw. .
If you are using the PCBS` figures then they have been conclusively shown to be wrong. The current PCBS data is wrong because it does it not reflect corrections the PCBS itself noted in its original census of 1997. That census included Palestinians who had left over the years, but who were issued identification cards during Israel's Civil Administration. According to the Oslo Accords, these persons had preferential rights to return to the territories. However, the PCBS included these individuals in their figures even if they were absent for decades. Using this data, the PCBS arrived at a faulty estimate for the West Bank and Gaza population totalling 2.8 million persons even then no where near the incredible figure you have posted.
International supervision, however, required the PCBS to define the methodology that helped it arrive at its final numbers. Once it was understood that the PCBS augmented its numbers by including 325,258 residents living abroad, and 210,000 Jerusalem Arabs already counted by Israel, it was clear that the PCBS 1997 Census should have totalled 2.2 million persons. This number essentially confirmed Israel's estimated figure of 2.1 million persons living in the territories, based upon school records, the re-issuance of identification cards, and Israel Border Police records. Again no where near the 3.5 million you keep quoting.
In order to support your thesis you repeatedly include Gaza from which Israel has withdrawn and where no Jews are living at all. On that basis you might as well include figures from Jordan and every other country in the Middle East where people who claim to be refugees or their descendants from Mandate Palestine live.

Anthony writes......

" Amazing Otway with one stroke of the pen wiped out 100,000 so-called Palestinians. "

Not at all. The estimate of 300,000 to 56,000 was claimed to have happened in " a couple of generations. " It occurred to me that this was a very loose statement. A couple of generations in the mind of a 90 year old is likely a lot longer than a couple of generations to a 5 year old. For this reason I began to suspect the number had been inflated and therefore deleted the blog.

200,000 to 56000 since the occupation is a statement I have confidence in.

I am very short of time at the moment but tomorrow I will tell you how this depopulation / ethnic cleansing process works.

In the meantime perhaps Anthony might supply us with a list of publications he regards as " friends of Israel " and whose word we may therefore take as Gospel.

"advis3r" - and your aliases - are trying to say that nuclear-armed, economically advanced, start-up nation, OECD member Israel can't contend with a guerrilla organisation like hizbollah? You want us to believe that Israel is some kind of nebbish? Who donyou think you are kidding? No one but yourself.
And read it again: I wrote that Israel controlled gaza, not that it occupied it.

The Palestinians did have a homeland. It was called Jordan. If they didn't revolt 40 years ago against King Hussein, they'd still be there. The same with Kuwait during the 1991 Persian Gulf War when they sided with Sadaam Hussein. Given this track record, how would you expect them to behave if they had their own state adjoining Israel?

Israel controls the Rafah crossing?

Israel controls access to Gaza from the sea the air and the parts where its border is contiguous with that of Gaza to prevent arms smuggling it does not control Gaza your friends in Hamas do that.

Israel controls all goods that go in and out of Gaza. It controls Gaza. Again, you are painting Israel as some kind of nebbish, which it patently isn't. Why would you want to do that, I wonder.
Also, like your new alias. Is he the one you are going to use so as not to desecrate Shabbat, your Shabbat goy as it were?

Are you incapable of answering a post without betraying your fixation. Enlighten me who is supposed to be my new alias? Obviously you need to seek help in the meantime I would recommend this as a first step.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200811/truth-lies-and-self-deception
Until you do seek help there really is no purpose in engaging with you, if there ever was.

millis, you talking of aliases - pot, kettle, black.

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