Women who libel Israel


By Jonathan Hoffman
October 27, 2012
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http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/women-who-libel-israel.premium-1.472031

By David Landau

Every time Anat Hoffman performs her stunts at the Western Wall, well-meaning liberals like Bradley Burston fall for it.

As a liberal myself (I hope), and as a longtime admirer of Bradley (and in many ways of Anat), I always ask myself, Why? Why participate in a cynical charade designed to portray Israel as a benighted and misogynous backwater?

"Try to imagine this," Bradley begins in his latest fulmination in the wake of Anat's latest provocation. "Try to imagine this in an account of a foreign regime: A Jewish person wearing a prayer shawl is heard publicly chanting the Sh'ma, the core statement of Judaism. The regime's state-funded clerics and its judiciary have ruled that such worship "hurts the feelings" of other people in the area, thus constituting a disturbance of the peace. Police arrest and manhandle the worshipper…"

Well, try to imagine this, Bradley. Try to imagine a Protestant Christian cleric, wearing robes that define his denomination, standing in St Peter's Square, Rome, and leading a group of Protestant Christian coreligionists in a brief prayer service.

It would be brief, because they'd all be carted off by the Swiss Guard quickly enough, for "disturbing the peace".

Now – closer to home for the Hadassah women whose attention Anat was trying to catch – imagine our Protestant doing the same in the forecourt of St Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue.

Or, even closer, imagine the Satmar Rebbe and a group of his followers marching into New York's Temple Emanu-El and conducting their prayers there. What would your vaunted American Jewish pluralism make of that?

AHA! I hear you say. But this is the WALL we're talking about, the site holy to ALL Jews. Not some single-denominational place of worship. Anat Hoffman and her Women of the Wall want equal, respectful treatment at the Wall.

"It happened at the holiest site of all of Judaism," Bradley explains. "The Kotel, the Western Wall, the last remnant of the ancient Temple, which the Talmud teaches was destroyed by sinat hinam, the baseless hatred of Jews for other Jews."

Fair enough, let's shift the analogy to the site holiest on earth to ALL Christians, the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

Now, try to imagine this, Bradley. Imagine a few Copts straying across one flagstone demarcated in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as the praying territory of the Ethiopians. Imagine a few Armenians encroaching onto one minute of the prayer-time demarcated by ancient accords for the Greek Orthodox. Wars were launched for less.

As for Protestants (the bulk of U.S. Christians), they have no locus standi (in the most literal sense) at all in the ancient Church. They venerate the Garden Tomb, elsewhere in the city. Imagine, Bradley, an American Protestant cleric or layman insisting on conducting a public prayer service (as distinct from private, silent prayer) in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The police would have to intervene fast to rescue him or her from the "disturbance of the peace" that would most inexorably ensue.

Where would your sympathies be, by the way, Bradley? Or yours, Anat?

By the same token – and this is really another rhetorical question – where are your sympathies in the matter of Jews, in tallitot like Anat, insisting on declaiming their Sh'ma Yisrael on the Temple Mount, which after all is even holier to Jews than the Western Wall Plaza below?

I know where they are; they're with mine. All three of us liberals see that behavior as wantonly provocative, almost calculated to incite a "disturbance of the peace" in the most literal sense of that phrase, a disturbance that could set the whole Middle East ablaze.

Perhaps the best analogy to the Wall is London’s Westminster Abbey, the foremost national shrine that is also the foremost place of worship of a state that has a state-religion, Church of England Protestantism.

The Catholics, long persecuted in the past, have their own Westminster Cathedral nearby. The Jews, long discriminated against, too, have their synagogues. The Muslims their mosques, and so on.

There is pluralism and freedom of religion in Britain. Everyone can visit every house of worship, respectfully. But they cannot – even if they are devout and pious Christians – conduct any Christian divine service in Westminster Abbey other than the service of the state-religion: Church of England. To do so would entail being arrested and manhandled, as Anat was and hoped and intended to be, when she conducted an act of Jewish worship at the Western Wall that diverged from the rite of the state-religion of Israel: Orthodox Judaism.

Non-Orthodox Jews in the U.S. and elsewhere may understandably balk and bridle at the assertion that Orthodox Judaism is Israel’s state-religion. But it is plain silly for Bradley Burston to deny what is a manifest truth, and to moan and mourn at the blithe indifference of the Israeli press and public to Anat Hoffman's antics.

The State of Israel, a product of European political culture, has a state-religion. American Jews – and Israelis playing to their gallery like Anat – need to understand and accept that, just as Europeans – and Israelis – understand that their constitutional conventions are deeply different from America’s political culture. Just as the Women of the Wall would accept and respect the rules in Westminster Abbey, and surely not sympathize with Methodists or Mormons trying to muscle in and hold a service there.

Israel's formative political culture is not necessarily immutable. As Golda Meir, that American-educated yet benighted and misogynous Israeli head of government (America has yet to elect one), never tired of explaining and repeating: If non-Orthodox American Jews want to influence the issue of synagogue-and-state in Israel, they need to live here in sizable numbers and vote here.

Decades later, that remains demographic, democratic, common-sense.

COMMENTS

Harvey

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 13:46

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Welcome to the Millis world of revisionist Zionism .
Not content with a one sided ,distorted position on the complexities of the West Bank / Gaza situation , it now appears that not even Tel Aviv is safe from his 'unique Pro Israel ' stance .

Boy would I have liked to have been in on that UJIA selection process and interview .
Walls' pork pies' on an industrial scale springs readily to mind .

Still at least justice was seen to be done in the end .
The hunter hunted down .


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 13:46

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Those receiving Jobseeker's Allowance because they cannot hold down a job should not be spending their day blogging - they should be seeking gainful employment as opposed to wasting taxpayers' money


Harvey

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 13:57

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That's so true . Joe you spent a fair part of yesterday copy pasting and blogging .
I think it justifies a call to Mick to let him know how his money is being misspent .
Except of course ..... Well we all know the rest . Happy uninterrupted blogging Joe !


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:10

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I see it's lunch break time at the GLA. Or perhaps you've given one of your lackeys your log in details, just to give the impression that you are allowed to blog during working time. You better tell Mr Hoffman that another letter to Andrew Collinge and/or Jeff Jacobs is in order, especially since he seems also to be distributing Private and Confidential correspondence. He really doesn't want want me to do that, does he.

And he shouldn't worry his tinfoil-hatted head worry about me. Part of the job is working social meejah. What fun.

So why did you/he (as you are his spox) cut and paste a column by someone who called for Israel to be raped? Obviously the author doesn't like Israel and women. Depravity at its worst.

And being a Zionist doesn't mean denying the past of rewriting history. It's recognition of what led to the creation of the Jewish and Democratic state of Israel, and knowing what is needed to resolve the conflict so that Israel can live in peace with its neighbours.

Revisionist Zionism? Me? A Herutnik? For you that would be flattery. But I'm from the Labour Zionist tradition.

Jonathan, I urge you through your lackey to get help. Depression is such a nasty thing, it affects how you deal with other people and leads people to self-harm in so many ways.


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:18

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It has to be said Jonathan, you are beginning to sound ill.


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:21

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I'm waiting for Suzanna to ask where the third Muppeteer is.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:29

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Oh Richard has got his hands full with Jose.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:51

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It might be best if the alleged RRZ and Mary buzzed off.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:52

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Jonathan, you might find this helpful, from the Black Dog Tribe


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 14:57

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Best for who Joe ?


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 15:19

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Joe this is not the western wall I type wherever I please. It might be best if you made some adjustments to your over bearing sense of self importance.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 15:26

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Best for rational debate, you two


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 15:42

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-2 points

ha ha ha ok

The floor is yours


Advis3r

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 15:44

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Millis - I think you have a grave problem with telling the truth. The Muslim tombstones in Mamilla lay where they have been for years. The plan was not to build houses but a museum the Museum of Tolerance on the site which had fallen into disuse and which the Muslim Religious Authorities had themselves proposed be removed. May I remind you that an old Sephardic Jewish cemetery dating back to the 18th Century was uprooted on Mile End Road London E1 to make way for an extension to Queen Mary College so removal of remains if conducted in a respectful manner is not unacceptable. What however the Jordanians did was wanton destruction of Jewish synagogues and the use of Jewish Tombstones to build latrines. I don't mind you posting your anti-Israel sentiments on here you are an abject failure at that anyway - what I do mind however is when you make outrageous claims and back them up with lies.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 15:49

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Advis3r, I suggest the next time you go to Jerusalem, you take yourself to the pretty houses for foreigners that were built between the Karta Car Park and the David Citadel Hotel. Yes, those houses. Not the straw man Museum of "Tolerance" you seem to be hacking a chaynic about


Advis3r

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 15:59

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I see since I am in Jerusalem any number of times a week and you're not so please tell me when it was that you were there and actually saw religious buildings and graveyards being torn down to make way for the Mamilla Project? Or is your gripe that you do not possess the wherewithal to buy a property there?

BTW that's a long lunch break you are having there isn't it?


Advis3r

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 16:11

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In fact isn't it true Millis that the Mamilla Project is a case of preservation and restoration?

See
http://www.lcud.tau.ac.il/lexicon/sites/default/files/article/112/Safdie...


zaheerayin

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 17:54

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Advis3r, this is just an architectural rendering. It's not evidence of anything...like Jonathan citing himself as a source.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 19:08

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First, Jonathan, may I suggest you read Mindfulness helps you become a better leader

I'd also recommend anything on the Action for Happiness website.

Now for the misogynists who cut and paste or hail a column by someone who believes Israel should be raped and who believe that Israel shouldn't live up to its pledge in the Declaration of Independence that the Jewish and democratic state will guarantee "freedom of religion [and] conscience” I suggest you read this. Remember, the Jewish Agency is hardly an anti-Israel organisation.

Whereas the Declaration of the State of Israel states that Israel will guarantee “freedom of religion [and] conscience:”

And whereas the Jewish Agency for Israel (JAFI), through the work of its Committee for the Unity of the Jewish People, and financial support for the programs of diverse streams of Judaism, supports the availability in Israel of multiple approaches to Jewish religious life, so as to meet the religious expressions of as many Jews as possible;

Ans whereas the western wall of Har Habayit has for centuries been a holy place of prayer for the Jewish people;

And whereas Jewish women and men, of all streams of Judaism, desire the opportunity to pray at the western wall of Har Habayit in a manner that fullfills their religious expressions, and in an atmosphere of mutual respect and ahavat Yisrael;

Therefore The Jewish Agency for Israel, consistent with its solidarity with the commitment of the State of Israel in its Declaration of Independence to guarantee freedom of religion and conscience,

Hereby calls on the Chairman of the Executive of JAFI, consulting with the Committee for the Unity of the Jewish People, and working with the JAFI-Israel Government Coordinating Committee and other appropriate parties, including the Western Wall Heritage Foundation, to arrive at a satisfactory approach to the issue of prayer at the western wall of Har Habayot [sic].

Pay particular heed to what Natan Sharansky said about the behaviour of the Israeli police.

Speaking at the closing plenary of The Jewish Agency’s board meeting, Natan Sharansky addressed the recent arrest of Anat Hoffman saying, “We are very angry and very upset at the behavior of Israel’s police.”


J.Clifford

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 17:25

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Suggest Joe Millis you take a trip to the Rabin center and follow his career as well as world events that were happening throughout his life. I think you will have to accept that he was not some rich right wing bigot but he did come to realise that by signing the Oslo accords (which I am quite sure you approved of) the people turned against him. His actions unleashed a reign of terror on Israel and Israelis which was quite unprecedented. In exchange for his attempt at peace buses and restaurants were blown up suicide bombers people maimed and killed.

The tragedy was he was demonised and accused of being a fascist by other Jews who should have known better, they even made a poster representing him as Hitler. You know how it goes Joe you and the other trolls use the same tactics on Jonathan or anyone else who disagrees with you. Look what happened to Rabin after all the incitement - you weren't Arafat's P.R. man at the time were you?


Lanne

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 17:59

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http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/931778/jewish/On-which-day...

"It is always forbidden for a man to shave his beard with a razor, or a razor-like implement (that completely removes facial hair)—as per Leviticus 19:27: "You shall not destroy the corners of your beard." If you shave, speak to your rabbi to determine which shavers are halachically permitted for use." In response to Jonathan's post. Men who shave all their beard should also be forbidden to pray at the Western Wall. I have to ask why their is no call for action to be taken against men who pray at the wall with all their beard shaven. Why the double standards?


joemillis1959

Mon, 11/05/2012 - 18:25

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Janet, between the signing of Oslo (Sept 1993) and Baruch Goldstein's terror attack in February 1994, there were no terror bomb - suicide or otherwise - attacks in Israel. The terror came after Goldstein. As usual it was a religious ultra-nationalist nut-job who started it. cause and effect.

Hoffman as Rabin HY"D? Wow, that's novel. He probably would have been among those nice people in Zion Square at the anti-peace rallies led by Bibi.


Advis3r

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 15:24

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Lanne - for your information Anat Hoffman is not prevented from praying at the Western Wall so long as she abides by the rules and regulations governing worshipping there which most people including non-Jews are more than happy to abide by. The rules do not prohibit men without beards from praying there so your claims of double standards are ridiculous.

Joe Millis lying yet again. Why don't you find something useful to do ignoramus.

This is the list of terrorist attrocities from 1957 - 1967 this mind you before the Six-day War.

Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.
May 20, 1957 - A gunman opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.
May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to kibbutz Kissufim.
June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.
Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.
Dec 21, 1957 - A member of kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.
Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.
Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in an ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lakhish.
Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.
May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mount Scopus, in Jerusalem. At 1654 Local time Lieutenant-Colonel Flint of the Mixed Armistice Commission was killed apparently by a single sniper round while trying to evacuate the dead and wounded Israelis from an Israeli police patrol. The Israeli police patrol was on a disputed route past the al-Issawiya village in the Jordanian controlled area of Mount Scopus.[8]
Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attaché in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.
Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.
Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot HaBashan was killed.
Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.
Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at kibbutz Ramat Rachel.
Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.
Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from kibbutz Heftziba was killed near kibbutz Yad Hana.
Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftah.
Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit She'an Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.
July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge


Advis3r

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 15:34

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Oh and before Baruch Goldstein committed his so-called act of terrorism on 25 February 1994 these were the terrorist attacks during the previous year:
1 Jan 1993 1 Israeli security agent killed
15 Jan 1993 4 injured in stabbing (one terrorist killed) at Tel Aviv bus station
1 Mar 1993 2 killed, 7 injured in stabbing attack in Tel Aviv
3 Mar 1993 1 guard injured in stabbing in East Jerusalem
15 Mar 1993 1 Palestinian injured in stabbing
22 Mar 1993 6 injured in stabbing attack at technical school
29 Mar 1993 2 police officers killed in Tel Aviv
1 Jul 1993 2 killed, 2 injured by three terrorists boarding bus; 1 person killed during boarding, 1 killed during hostage standoff
6 Jul 1993 1 injured in stabbing in West Jerusalem
5 Aug 1993 1 soldier kidnapped and killed north of Jerusalem
24 Sep 1993 1 killed by stabbing near Basra
9 Oct 1993 2 killed in Wadi Kelt
24 Oct 1993 2 soldiers killed in Jewish settlement in Gaza
29 Oct 1993 1 killed after being kidnapped from near Ramallah
7 Nov 1993 1 killed in shooting attack
9 Nov 1993 1 killed in deliberate vehicle collision
17 Nov 1993 1 soldier killed by stabbing at Nahal Oz
1 Dec 1993 2 killed in shooting ambush near Ramallah
5 Dec 1993 1 soldier killed, 1 injured in shooting attack on bus at Holon junction
6 Dec 1993 2 killed in shooting attack near Hebron
22 Dec 1993 2 killed in shooting attack near Ramallah
23 Dec 1993 1 killed by stabbing in Ashdod
24 Dec 1993 1 soldier killed in ambush in Gaza
25 Dec 1993 11 injured by bombing of Israeli ship in Eilat port
29 Dec 1993 1 person stabbed near Adarim, died of wounds 17 Feb 1994
31 Dec 1993 2 killed by terrorists invading an apartment in Ramle
12 Jan 1994 1 killed in stabbing attack in Rishon Le-Zion
14 Jan 1994 1 killed in stabbing attack at Erez junction
9 Feb 1994 1 killed after being kipnapped (Nachshon Wachsman HY"D)
10 Feb 1994 1 killed near Kibbutz Na'an
13 Feb 1994 1 killed, 2 injured in ambush of car
19 Feb 1994 1 killed in shooting ambush on car in Samaria - the latter being said to be the catalyst for Goldstein's attack on the Mosque since he was the attending physician.

As I said Millis you are a lying ignoramus.


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 16:49

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SO CALLED act of terrorism ? Would you like to expand on that ?


joemillis1959

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 17:12

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Read carefully what I wrote, Advis3r. No bombings until after Baruch Goldstein. And that's from your Foreign Ministry's website. So if I'm a lying ignoramus, you are a fascist apologist for a Jewish terrorist and an ace purveyor of baseless hatred. Ad homs work both ways, capisce?

And I neither hate nor pity you. I am totally apathetic to you and your ilk.


zaheerayin

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 17:31

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"Anat Hoffman is not prevented from praying at the Western Wall so long as she abides by the rules and regulations governing worshipping there which most people including non-Jews are more than happy to abide by."

I got goose bumps reading that.


zaheerayin

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 17:38

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Now I'm wondering where Advis3r was when this was going on?

http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/83914/modesty-charedi-patrol-jerus...


Lanne

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 17:48

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"Lanne - for your information Anat Hoffman is not prevented from praying at the Western Wall so long as she abides by the rules and regulations governing worshipping there which most people including non-Jews are more than happy to abide by" I think you missed my point. For orthodox Jews to be consistent with what the Torah says, the rules and regulations governing worshipping should also apply to men with all their beard shaven as shaving all the beard is forbidden in the Torah.


joemillis1959

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 17:55

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Lanne, there's a saying: where there is a rabbinic will, there is an halachic way. Unfortunately, rabbinic will applies only to find loopholes for the male of the species. Women? It's a bit like this.


happygoldfish

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 19:08

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advis3r, j.clifford originally said of rabin

J.Clifford: … by signing the Oslo accords … His actions unleashed a reign of terror on Israel and Israelis which was quite unprecedented …

… and joe replied …

joemillis1959: … there were no terror bomb - suicide or otherwise - attacks in Israel. The terror came after Goldstein.

yes, joe, although the precedented terror was continued by arafat after the oslo accords of 20th august 1993 (signed on 13th september), with 29 israelis being killed in the 6 months before goldstein's massacre (the last 6 days before, goldstein being the attending physician), the actual bombings were started by arafat 6 weeks after

advis3r, do you accept that if joe had (adopting j.clifford's word) said "The unprecedented terror came after Goldstein", he would have been correct?


joemillis1959

Tue, 11/06/2012 - 19:10

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Goldfish. First, many of those killed before Goldstein's terrorism were armed soldiers. That's not terrorism, that's guerrilla warfare.
Second, your contention that it was Arafat who started the bombings is not necessarily the case.


happygoldfish

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 10:46

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joemillis1959: … many of those killed before Goldstein's terrorism were armed soldiers. That's not terrorism, that's guerrilla warfare.

only 8 out of 27 killed (not 29, i miscounted ) were soldiers

(and although i don't know whether they were "armed" … i don't think they were given the opportunity to use arms)

hmm … if killing unsuspecting soldiers in the street isn't terrorism, then surely a doctor going crazy and killing people (without any suicide note or other warning or explanation) isn't terrorism either?


Advis3r

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 11:03

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Where to begin?
Mary - "so called terrorism"? I suggest you read this:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism#Obstacles_to_a_com...
and then tell me is Hamas - a terrorist organisation or a so-called terrorist organisation. Baruch Goldstein committed a heinous crime but was it terrorism?
Millis - First where do I condone the murder of 29 human beings by Baruch Goldstein? Be truthful you hate religious Jews - period.
Secondly we also see now that you are an apologist for Arab terrorism and the arch terrorist Arafat who excluding Hitler and Stalin was responsible for deaths of the most number of Jews in the 20th Century.
How nice of you to term as "guerrilla" attacks the murder of Jews which in many instances took place within the 1949 Armistice lines - your sophistry is lost on no one. I am quite sure the parents of the young men and women who were killed defending their fellow citizens will be gratified to learn that they were killed by "guerillas" not terrorists. I know what you wrote but being killed by a bullet or a knife makes you just as dead.
The frequency of terrorist attacks before 25 February 1994 was no less than after.
And Lanne Jewish law forbids a man to shave the “side-growth of [his] beard” (Leviticus 19:27, 21:5). Later this was interpreted as the hair on one’s head and cheeks. Payot, the side curls on the side of a man’s head, has become religious custom of the Hassidic and ultra-Orthodox. In biblical times, shaving used to be considered a pagan practice and, consequently, was prohibited. The beard is a means by which men and women are distinguished. It states in Deuteronomy, that men and women are forbidden to assume the clothing and customs of the other gender (22:5) The reason why Anat Hoffman's actions are a provocation. Ultimately, the rabbinic scholars of the past interpreted this to include a man shaving his face. However using an electric razor which has two blades is not considered by most religious authorities to be the method of shaving that was proscribed in the Bible. There fore it is perfectly permissible for a man not sporting a beard to pray at the Western Wall.
Anat Hoffman despite what zaheeryin says is also free to pray at the Western Wall. If however she chooses to do so in a provocative manner not in keeping with the sanctity of the place then she has to accept the legal consequences of so doing.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 11:19

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The mind boggles.


zaheerayin

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 11:23

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Are you quoting sharia law, Advis3r?


Advis3r

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 12:11

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Fake Zionist since you haven't got one how would you know?


Advis3r

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 12:18

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zaheeryin would you be able to understand the difference even if it was explained to you?


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 12:20

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That was so funny I forgot to laugh.


joemillis1959

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 12:56

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Advis3r, says a lot about you that you think I view religious Jews as a monolith. Second, there's a minority of a sub-sect of nationalist Jews motivated by religio/ethno-centric ultra-nationalism which have more in common with Bible Belt Evangelists than with any form of normative Judaism. Observing them, you can see how very early Christianity developed from Judaism into a small isolationist desert mountain-based cult.
And yes, you did condone/apologise for the terrorist Goldstein yimach shemo by saying he was driven by some other terror act and used his position as physician on duty to carry out his wet dream.


Advis3r

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 13:31

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Millis you blame religious Jews for everything that goes wrong.
It was also nice of you to use the epithet Yemach Shemo (may his name be blotted out) when talking about a fellow Jew no matter the seriousness of his offence. I note however when apologizing for the arch terrorist and Jew killer you didn't say Arafat yemach shemo how very telling.

I did not condone the actions of Baruch Goldstein and never have done.

He was however the attending physician in the aftermath of a number of terrorist attacks - but being such a put together chap you would not understand how that might unhinge a perfectly normal person.


joemillis1959

Wed, 11/07/2012 - 14:05

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I've never blamed religious Jews for everything. That's just paranoia and your constant playing the victim showing. Goldstein? Yimach shemo ve'zichro ve'she'yisaref be'gehenom. Arafat? ditto. Yigal Amir, ditto. All terrorists, irrespective of race, religion, creed, colour, gender ditto.

And don't play the Jewish unity card nonsense with me. Ain't nothing gonna make me feel any sense of empathy with a bunch of nationalist "Jews" motivated by religio/ethno-centric ultra-nationalism who have more in common with Bible Belt Evangelists than with any form of normative Judaism.

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