Question Time: The Right Response to Owen Jones' Assault on Israel


By Jonathan Hoffman
November 26, 2012
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Owen Jones was applauded for his assault on Israel in BBC1 Question Time on Thursday (at 27:00 on the replay):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01p2wbj/Question_Time_22_11_2012/

Here's what the audience member SHOULD have said:

The idea that Israel broke a ceasefire is preposterous. Hamas fired over 900 rockets into Israel in the months in 2012 preceding Operation Defensive Shield and then escalated hostilities in the second week of November:

http://www.thejc.com/blogs/jonathan-hoffman/hamas-escalates-violence-aga...

Jones asserts that Israel killed Omar Mishwari - just as John Donnison of the BBC asserted it. But there are several possibilities as to how the baby died:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/follow-up-on-omar-mishrawis-d...

Jones trots out the usual hard left lies:

- that Israel's presence in Judea and Samaria contravanes international law - no it doesn't
- that the settlements contravene international law - no they don't
- that Gaza is under 'siege' - no it isn't, truckloads of necessities go in every day, according to what those in charge of Gaza want

Detailed refutations can be found here:

http://zionistfederation.blogspot.co.uk/

Not to mention everything that Jones left out eg the genocidal Hamas Charter, the hate programmes on Hamas TV.

Not to mention that in Defensive Pillar, Israel achieved the lowest ever civilian:combatant ratio in the history of asymmetric warfare

Addendum 1: Here's an excellent site to combat the libels:

http://huff-watch.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/answering-libels.html

Addendum 2:

Seems that despite his Oxford education Owen Jones cannot tell the difference between Income and Wealth! (unforgivable even though he read History rather than PPE):

http://order-order.com/2012/03/24/owen-jones-gets-brillo-ed/

(Video via The Commentator)

COMMENTS

Mary in Brighton

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 10:18

Rate this:

-3 points

Unfortunately Jonathan, my sense is that people are getting more sophisticated in respect of, and better informed about, these issues.

You have to do better than platitudes, simplistic assertions, soggy sound bites and tired and tattered Hasbara.

And citing and linking to yourself only makes what you say less compelling still.

richmillett

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 10:41

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3 points

Well done, Jonathan. It was a remarkable childlike rant from Jones. Unsurprising. First, The Independent gave us Hari, now this.

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 10:59

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-3 points

It surprises me not that you are impressed Richard. However, if he went out into the real world and spouted this transparent drivel to people with some joined up brain cells he would get torn to shreds.

After all you are impressed by Dan " every time I meet a decent goy I am shocked and surprised " and " Israel's natural allies are American fundamentalist Christians and the European far right " Marks.

richmillett

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 11:08

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2 points

"However, if he went out into the real world and spouted this transparent drivel to people with some joined up brain cells he would get torn to shreds."

RRZ - for once we agree. Jones would, indeed, get torn to shreds by someone with some joined up brain cells. Good to see you coming around, finally. Reading my blog must have helped.

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 11:30

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-2 points

Ha ha I can't be talking about Jones cuz I have never heard anything he has said or read anything he has written. But of course you knew that already.

But on one thing you are right. Reading your blog DOES help.

richmillett

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 11:47

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2 points

oh come on, a sage such as yourself with such incite into everything has never read or heard Owen Jones? I find that impossible to believe.

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 12:13

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-2 points

I am afraid you are just going to have to try harder on that one.

I may be being unfair to Jones but from what I have recently read about him he seems a bit of a cultish figure.

Maybe if I tire of the mumblings, ramblings and rantings of your little three man cult ( unlikely ) I might give Jones a whirl.

richmillett

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 12:26

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2 points

My wish is your command! Here he is!

http://order-order.com/2012/03/24/owen-jones-gets-brillo-ed/

Anything else I can help you out with?

richmillett

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 12:27

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1 point

Or should i say your wish is my command. Anyway, have a look.

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 13:26

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-2 points

Ok so now I have heard him. If luck is where opportunity meets preparedness he is not going to have much luck, unless and until he grows up somewhat. Though time does seem to be on his side.

I must say though that even with the disadvantage of somewhat tender years he already comes over as a worthy opponent of you three nut jobs.

Actually I would like to amend that slightly. I don't think you are a nut job.I think your thinking is invariably as woolly as Hoff's favoured style of head wear, see your blog about the Palestinian Ambassador for a classic example. I haven't quite figured out about your taste in company, particularly your close association with the other two members of your little three man cult who most definitely are nut jobs. But no rush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBH6XONDpes

Harvey

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 14:01

Rate this:

1 point

Jones had his well rehearsed 90 seconds of fame and no doubt sent his acolytes into paroxysms of joy on the blogosphere . The sad reality is that polemicists such as Owen Jones do the Palestinians no favours at all . His polarised one side good one side bad does not reflect the incredible complexity of the IP situation . Positive outside intervention is determined by a balanced fair consideration to both sides needs in order to ultimately achieve some sort of reapproachment . Ultimately that contribution will lead to both parties making painful but very necessary concessions .
Jones is incapable of that . His rhetoric is a banner wave to the hard liners of Hamas and leads them to believe they have a political critical mass in the West .
The reality is they don't have support unless you count the cultists of PSC and other fringe organisations .

Ultimately Jones is nothing more than a sock puppet for a terrorist organisation .

Harvey

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 14:17

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1 point

On the same track as Jones , here is another example of how political bias can be so extreme so as to suppress moral and professional standards of journalism .

http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/27/bbcs-jon-donnison-summoned-to-government-...

Harvey

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 14:27

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1 point

More here
. http://www.israellycool.com/2012/11/27/bbcs-jon-donnison-summoned-home/

Hopefully the Beeb will give him a new assignment where he can rediscover his journalistic talent .The Damascus front line line would be a good starting place .

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 15:00

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-1 points

Home ? I would be careful with this one Harv. If I were you......

happygoldfish

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 15:52

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0 points
here's a transcript of what owen jones said (Question Time, 22/11/2012) …

Let's be absolutely clear about what happened.
Firstly, this whole idea that Gaza, that Hamas, broke the ceasefire, is just not true. In fact it was broken after, in October, Israel killed 15 Palestinian fighters, they shot dead [an] immensely disabled Palestinian, they killed another 13-year-old in an intrusion, and when there was an attempt to actually get a ceasefire, negotiations were ongoing, that is when they assassinated Ahmed Jabari, completely ending those ceasefire talks.
Now it's often said, and Barak Obama made this point, he said "What country on earth would tolerate rockets being fired at them?"
I ask you this, what people on earth would tolerate a siege which stops basic supplies getting in, an occupation, a 45-year-old occupation, a brutal occupation at that, illegal settlements all over the West Bank which are in total violation of international law, and what we've seen in the course of this onslaught are the deaths of 158 Palestinians, at least 30 of whom are children, and I don't want to just throw statistics around, I'll give you one example, of one of those children Omar Mishawari, he was 11 months old, he was a little boy, the son of a BBC journalist, and he was killed in a so-called targeted strike.
Now we all want a secure and lasting peace.
When we have Israeli ministers like the interior minister calling for Gaza to be sent back to the middle ages, when in the last offensive we have another minister calling for a holocaust to be inflicted on Gaza, when we have the son of Ariel Sharon who wrote in the Jerusalem Post talking about how Nagasaki and Hiroshima were solutions, possible solutions to be inflicted, when we have those people we won't get a secure peace.
But the way we will get it, for Arabs and Jews alike, [is] to end the occupation, end the siege of Gaza, and dismantle the illegal settlements, and finally have a just settlement for the Palestinian people, ensuring peace for Arabs and Jews and the region as a whole.

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 18:48

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-1 points

This is ridiculous. Regarding the " incidents ". Neither me nor Owen Jones nor happycrayfish know the truth in respect of them. So what we have is not a debate or discussion but a bicker. Not worth engaging with.

Real Real Zionist

Wed, 11/28/2012 - 11:55

Rate this:

-1 points

You seem to have so much more information than the mere mortals among us. Where DO you get your information from?

Real Real Zionist

Wed, 11/28/2012 - 12:41

Rate this:

-1 points

an Israeli military spokeswoman said.

I see. Thank you

Real Real Zionist

Wed, 11/28/2012 - 12:41

Rate this:

-1 points

an Israeli military spokeswoman said.

I see. Thank you

You have no idea what my prejudices are.

happygoldfish

Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:51

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2 points

Real Real Zionist: You seem to have so much more information than the mere mortals among us. Where DO you get your information from?

Real Real Zionist: an Israeli military spokeswoman said.
I see. Thank you

my information is almost always accompanied by clickable links, so that anyone can easily check it

you are limited by your unwillingness to look at sources that do not support your prejudices

this series of lies and half-truths is too long to deal with in one go : let's start with the opening paragraph …

Owen Jones: Firstly, this whole idea that Gaza, that Hamas, broke the ceasefire, is just not true. In fact it was broken after, in October, Israel killed 15 Palestinian fighters …

if there was ever a ceasefire, it was certainly the gazans that broke it … in october 2012, they fired rockets into israel on october 1, 4, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29, 30, and 31 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012#October)

indeed, on 2/11/2012, "Mahmoud Abbas denounced the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel in an interview with Channel 2" (see http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=290276 )

Owen Jones: …they shot dead [an] immensely disabled Palestinian …

this "immensely disabled palestinian" appears to be 23-year-old Ahmad Nabhani, not retarded, but heavily medicated for depression, who had been returned unharmed by the israelis after approaching the border fence on three previous occasions, but on this occasion crawled there partly concealed by a dry river bed [so that the israelis could not see who he was nor what he had with him] and was shot (and later died, 5/11/2012) after ignoring warning shots and refusing to stop, see Diaa Hadid (AP)

Owen Jones: … they killed another 13-year-old in an intrusion …

this appears to be Ahmed Younis Khader Abu Daqqa, who was shot on 8/11/2012 when israeli soldiers, disarming explosive devices they found on the border, came under fire and therefore returned fire: it is not the israelis' responsibility if palestinian gunmen deliberately have a child shield with them

(and, obviously, returning fire is not a breach of a ceasefire! )

Owen Jones: …and when there was an attempt to actually get a ceasefire, negotiations were ongoing, that is when they assassinated Ahmed Jabari, completely ending those ceasefire talks.

there were no ceasefire talks, any more than there had been at any time during the relentless rocket attacks from gaza all year long

happygoldfish

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 19:02

Rate this:

2 points

Owen Jones: …and when there was an attempt to actually get a ceasefire, negotiations were ongoing, that is when they assassinated Ahmed Jabari, completely ending those ceasefire talks.

aha! … just found out where this extraordinary idea comes from … a misleading wikipedia passage ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pillar_of_Defense#Pre-operation_e... ) …
"An Israeli peace activist, Gershon Baskin, who was a mediator between Israel and Hamas in the negotiations that resulted in the release of Gilad Shalit, reported that hours before the strike that killed Ahmed Jabari, he received a draft of a permanent truce agreement between Israel and Hamas."
this is based on a cited haaretz article of 15/11/2012 whose headline is not supported by its own text …

Hamas leader Jabari killed amid talks on long-term truce
Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel …
A few months ago Baskin showed Defense Minister Ehud Barak a draft of the agreement and on the basis of that draft an inter-ministry committee on the issue was established. …
“In Israel,” Baskin said, “they decided not to decide, and in recent months I took the initiative to push it again.”

… ie, baskin's draft (btw, not for a ceasefire but for a "long-term truce") was referred to a committee who, several months ago, decided to drop it like a brick

baskin is the only person who thought his draft could still fly

owen jones is wrong, negotiations were not ongoing, the ceasefire (or truce) initiative had for months been at best dead in the water and at worst sunk like a brick

it was no more!

moral: if it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, and sinks like a duck …
then it's a brick!

happygoldfish

Fri, 12/14/2012 - 18:02

Rate this:

2 points

Owen Jones: Now it's often said, and Barak Obama made this point, he said "What country on earth would tolerate rockets being fired at them?"
I ask you this, what people on earth would tolerate …

owen jones criticised his first questioner with the words (at 29:45) "i'm disappointed you didn't engage with a single argument that i just put across", yet here he's done exactly that, with president obama (and david cameron and most other western leaders) …

owen jones has proudly refused to engage with obama's argument (ie, what would any country in israel's position do?)

instead, he "puts across" a different argument (ie, what would any people in the palestinians' position do?), and expects that to be answered, even though
i] he himself refuses to answer the argument of most western leaders
ii] he bases it on such a large number of lies or half-truths that it would be impossible for a questioner (even if prepared) to answer more than one in the short time available! …

(btw, owen jones is described by the bbc as "the Independent columnist" … what a good advertising slogan … "independent by nature: asking the questions other newspapers don't ask ")

owen jones is scared that he cannot answer obama without appearing racist … no other country would be expected to submit to almost daily rocket attacks on civilians without eventually attempting to destroy the rocket launch sites storage sites and personnel
ok, although owen jones is scared that he can't answer obama without appearing racist, we don't have to be scared about answering his series of questions! …

Owen Jones: … … a siege which stops basic supplies getting in …

both a lie and a racists' choice-word …

activity which would normally be called a blockade, or economic sanctions, is called a siege when it's done by israel

"siege" is defined as a military operation cutting off essential supplies (oxford dictionary and others)

the israeli-egyptian blockade of gaza allows in all essential supplies (and nearly everything else) … israel even supplies gaza with most of gaza's electricity!

(sometimes hamas cuts off essential supplies … on 20/11/2012, hamas actually attacked the kerem shalom border crossing, causing it to shut, and preventing 96 out of 120 trucks of humanitarian aid from entering … and many power cuts are unnecessary)

here are the details, from http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Humanitarian_situ... …

Food and Housing Security
1. Gaza is not experiencing food scarcity. Israel is not blocking entrance of goods into Gaza, except for weaponry and dual-use materials. Construction materials can be imported to Gaza under the supervision of international organizations.
 
2. Israel is continuing the yearly supply of five million cubic meters (1,320,860,250 gallons) of water to Gaza, despite the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns.
 
3. UNRWA (UN Relief and Works Agency) reports (17 Nov 2012) that despite some displacement of families due to hostilities, "there hasn't been any need to provide emergency humanitarian assistance or to open UNRWA facilities as emergency shelters."
Medical Care
1. Between January-October 2012, approximately 14,500 patients and their accompanying chaperones entered Israel from Gaza for medical treatment. 99% of the medical requests by Palestinian residents of Gaza were approved by Israel.
 
2. The World Health Organization has reported a ten-day slowdown in referral process for Gaza patients due to disagreements between the Ramallah and Gaza Health Ministries.
 
3. Gaza hospitals are currently operating at 80% capacity (17 Nov), slightly higher than routine periods.
 
4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.
 
5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority.
 
6. UNRWA reports that all of its 21 health centers are open and functioning. Of UNRWA's 12,000 staff members in Gaza, only one person has sustained injuries in the hostilities, and those are minor.
Electricity
1. Israel is supplying 125 megawatts of electricity to the Gaza Strip from the power station in Ashkelon despite the rocket attacks on Israel's population, and on Ashkelon itself.
 
2. Gaza continues to suffer from power outages due to a deliberate policy of Hamas, which opposes import of fuel from Israel. As a result, the Gaza power station is operating at 20% capacity.
the blockade, of course, is because gaza has for years been firing rockets at israeli civilians

yet owen jones turns it the other way round, and claims that the blockade (the "siege") is a reason for firing the rockets

Owen Jones: … an occupation, a 45-year-old occupation, a brutal occupation at that …

another lie and racists' choice-word …

there are certain words that certain people feel they have to use whenever they're talking about israel, even if there's no justification for it, simply because the sound gives the impression that israelis (or jews) are less than human

"brutal" is one … without specifically saying so, the obvious reference to "brute" gives the impression that israelis (or jews) behave like animals

(similarly, deaths caused by israel are described as "slaughter" to give the impression that israelis treat others as animals; and an attack by israel is described as an "onslaught" solely because it sounds like "slaughter")

there is nothing brutal ("savagely violent") about the israeli occupation

it has been considerably better than the jordanian occupation (of the west bank)

until the oslo accords, israel …

  • provided employment for a large proportion of the palestinian population (btw, 32,000 are still employed in israel, and 27,750 in the settlements … and israel persists in trying to strengthen the palestinian economy, see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Strenghtening-PA-... ),

  • provided the best health service in the middle east (btw, thousands of palestinian children, including gazan children accompanied by a parent, are still treated free in israeli hospitals),
  • established universities (there had been none before), and so on

    • since the oslo accords, instead of trying to cooperate, palestinians have gradually stepped up the atrocities committed against israeli civilians:

    suicide bombs (first using young men, then women, then children), shooting israelis in their cars, shooting or knifing israelis in their homes, rockets …

    at each step, the israelis have tried to counter illegal lethal force with legal non-lethal measures (road-blocks, the security barrier, economic sanctions/blockade etc)
    what people other than the palestinians would prolong their own occupation for 45 years by refusing to make peace?

    what people other than the palestinians, having aimed to destroy another country through three wars fought, and lost, on their behalf, would continue that aim 64 years on?

    what people other than the palestinians would keep their children and grandchildren in refugee towns for 64 years?

    what people other than the palestinians would increasingly commit atrocities, and name streets and stadiums after the perpetrators?
    every war ends with a peace treaty

    israel requires that peace treaty to be permanent, and in particular for the palestinians to give up their aim to re-absorb israel, and for secure borders as required by unsc resolution 242

    the palestinians have refused and still refuse to give up their aim to re-absorb israel, both by the "right of return" (of refugees and their descendants), and by military means … and abbas's recent unga speech (after the unga resolution recognising palestine) makes it clear that they intend to follow the unga resolution 194 track (return of refugees)

    the palestinians for 64 years have been trying to reverse the 1948 war

    israel for 64 years has been trying to secure a just peace treaty

    Owen Jones: … illegal settlements all over the West Bank which are in total violation of international law …

    let's assume that they are illegal (under the last sentence of article 49 of the fourth geneva convention) … even so, does that justify firing rockets against israeli civilians?

    owen jones emphasises that they are in "total violation" of international law …

    if owen jones's word "total" means anything, it is certainly a lie

    if owen jones means to give the impression that it is a "grave breach" of the convention requiring "penal sanctions" under article 146 (in non-technical words: a war crime), it is a lie, since breach of the last sentence of article 49 is not included in the article 147 definition of "grave breach" …

    Art. 147. Grave breaches … shall be those involving any of the following acts … wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in the present Convention, taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.

    if owen jones means to give the impression that it is at the top end of the scale of violations, it is a lie …
    unlike the many breaches of international law by other countries, this (alleged) israeli breach is pathetically harmless …

  • it does not kill anyone
  • it does not injure anyone
  • it does not deprive anyone of any property that he owns
  • it does not require anyone to move home (not even across the street)

    • … the only harm it does is that it forces palestinians to have jewish neighbours! (but even that's not as bad as it sounds, since at least those neighbours are usually a mile away, at the top of a hill! )

    … if only every country would break international law as harmlessly as the israelis!

    if owen jones means to give the impression that it is "total" in the sense of being undeniable or unarguable, then it is a lie …
    there are plenty of arguable defences (here, i wish only to say that it is arguable, rather than to actually argue it) …
    indeed, if it is a violation of international law, then the return (in 1967-9) of the pre-1948 jewish residents of the jewish quarter of jerusalem would have been a violation! … was that intended by the fourth geneva convention?

    and anyway, since the settlements do not kill or injure anyone, or deprive them of property that they own, or make them homeless, how can that justify the undoubted war crime of firing rockets at israeli civilians?

    Owen Jones: … and what we've seen in the course of this onslaught are the deaths of 158 Palestinians, at least 30 of whom are children, and I don't want to just throw statistics around, I'll give you one example, of one of those children Omar Mishawari, he was 11 months old, he was a little boy, the son of a BBC journalist, and he was killed in a so-called targeted strike.

    [later …]

    happygoldfish

    Mon, 12/31/2012 - 19:16

    Rate this:

    2 points
    ah, i've just found out where owen jones got the list of events with which he opened (after "Let's be absolutely clear about what happened"! ) …

    Owen Jones: … Let's be absolutely clear about what happened.
    Firstly, this whole idea that Gaza, that Hamas, broke the ceasefire, is just not true. In fact it was broken after, in October, Israel killed 15 Palestinian fighters, they shot dead a mentally* disabled Palestinian, they killed another 13-year-old in an intrusion, and when there was an attempt to actually get a ceasefire, negotiations were ongoing, that is when they assassinated Ahmed Jabari, completely ending those ceasefire talks.

    (for detailed comment on the inaccuracy of this, see above, here)
    [*this is correct: the original transcription "immensely disabled" was a mishearing]

    … it was from guardian associate editor and columnist seamus milne (also the guardian's comment editor, 2001-2007, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/seumasmilne ), whose article "It's Palestinians who have the right to defend themselves" was published 48 hours earlier …

    In fact, an examination of the sequence of events over the last month shows that Israel played the decisive role in the military escalation: from its attack on a Khartoum arms factory reportedly supplying arms to Hamas and the killing of 15 Palestinian fighters in late October, to the shooting of a mentally disabled Palestinian in early November, the killing of a 13 year-old in an Israeli incursion and, crucially, the assassination of the Hamas commander Ahmed Jabari last Wednesday during negotiations over a temporary truce.

    this is how misinformation about israel spreads …

    papers like the guardian publish facts without proper checks (there are no references enabling the reader to expose the inaccuracy unfairness or lack of context of the report of the deaths of the 15 palestinians, the palestinian being treated for depression, or the 13-year old), to support a dubious argument

    and then the bbc broadcasts a willingly gullible repetition of those unchecked facts, to support an even more dubious argument

    of course, it's not entirely the guardian's fault! …

    even seamus milne did not suggest that israel broke a ceasefire …

    that seems to have been purely owen jones's invention!

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