Open email to Simon Hughes MP


By Jonathan Hoffman
September 20, 2012
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Dear Mr Hughes

How many Israeli deaths will you accept to implement your preferred 'One State' solution?

Because most Israelis - Jews and non-Jews - would never volunteer to sign away the Jewish State.

Do you think there might be a reason that there are no LibDem Ministers in the Foreign Office?

And since you have a long history of anti-Israel comments, what makes you think anyone - apart from the usual exremists from the PSC and ISM - is going to listen to you?

Example: Saying that Operation Cast Lead was "disproportionate and self-defeating".

And if you think that Jews should not have their own State, how come you support the right of LibDems to have their own Party? On your logic the LibDems should be absorbed by one of the larger two Parties - and moreover the LibDems should have no say in which one it is.

Yours sincerely
Jonathan Hoffman

COMMENTS

Harvey

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 09:34

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1 point

Who is Simon Hughes ?
In slang Hebrew , it's known as Pukka Pukka
Hot air , listened to by no one and signifying absolutely nothing .


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 09:50

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2 points

“I’ve always seen as the best model, the work being done on antisemitic activity, because it has clearly been accurate, well-respected, useful and persuasive”.

Yet Hughes doesn't think that wishing away the only Jewish sovereign state, like he is doing, isn't "antisemtic activity"? Astonishing.

When Jenny Tonge wished away the Jewish state Nick "I'm sorry" Clegg asked her to apologise or resign as a Lib Dem. When will he be asking the same of Simon Hughes?


Harvey

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 10:15

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0 points

Hughes states he's concerned about Palestinian Human Rights but omits anything about Israeli Human Rights . He gives settlements as the sole obstacle to peace , yet fails to mention Palestinian non recognition of the primacy of 'Two states for Two people ' .
He fails to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians and their supporters will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state and that a Palestinian state is simply a stepping stone to a single Islamic state .
Israel will never accept a satellite of Iran perched within 10 clicks of Tel Aviv and Within RPG range of Ben Gurion Airport . It s never going to happen .
Get over it .


joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 10:38

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-1 points

Harvey

Israel will never accept..etc

So that means you are one-stater, too. Just like Hughes, Tonge and all the other insignificant numpties.


Mary in Brighton

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 10:55

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-1 points

Jonathan, as I am sure you know, Mr. Hughes is in Brighton at the moment. I am sure he wouldn't want to wait until after the conference to read your important email. I'll print a copy off and run it over to him.


zaheerayin

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 11:26

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-1 points

Why is this an open email? What is the purpose in calling the man out? If he responds, do you intend to publish that as well? All very grubby.


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 11:44

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1 point

Joe, i think you have unfairly represented Harvey. He said "Israel will never accept a satellite of Iran perched within 10 clicks of Tel Aviv". That is, Israel won't accept an Islamist state like Iran bordering it, something I would expect you agree with. It is hardly controversial.

As for "Just like Hughes, Tonge and all the other insignificant numpties." I agree Hughes is insignificant. I cannot understand why Martin Bright has given his views such exposure. I am baffled. Martin?


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 11:52

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-1 points

Grubby doesn't even scratch it. I too have written Simon Hughes an email. We wouldn't want him to be in any doubt about who he is dealing with.

In the meantime Hoffie's bestest friend sinks lower and lower.

http://www.thejc.com/blogs/marcus-dysch/brian-coleman-arrested-and-baile...

http://wwwbrokenbarnet.blogspot.co.uk/

Hoff has deleted his blog on this subject but I have a picture of it and posted it elsewhere.


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 11:57

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0 points

Richard it would be very difficult for Joe to represent Harv fairly since he ( Harv ) seems more than a tad confused. As best as I can decypher it he doesn't want a Palestinian state and he doesn't want one state. Are there options that I have missed ?


Harvey

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 11:58

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0 points

You have time on your hands Millis . Try using it to read my comment properly .
Israel will never accept a proxy Iranian state on its 67 borders .
It will not accept a Palestinian state which maintains full RoR to pre 67 Israel and is on record stating that refugees will not be granted Palestinian nationality .
Arab and Palestinian attitudes have not changed in 65 years .
Nation destruction rather than nation building .
What's your current position on the boycott Israel movement ?


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 12:10

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1 point

Harvey's position is in line with Israel's and reasonable people around the world; no radical Islamist Palestinian state on its border. That doesn't exclude a Palestinian state per se, as you and Joe well know.


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 12:31

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0 points

But how you going to prevent a Palestinian state from becoming whatever it will become ? It would be an independent state yes ? Or do you mean no ?


joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 12:46

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0 points

No, Richard, Harvey's and your position is that of Jewish one-staters. Like the Palestinian one-staters, the BDS mob, PSC, Tonge, JFJFP and other assorted loonies, they want the destruction of our only Jewish and democratic state. For shame, aligning yourselves with anti-zionists like that.


happygoldfish

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 12:50

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1 point

richmillett: Joe, i think you have unfairly represented Harvey.

no, millis was correct

joemillis1959: Harvey

So that means you are one-stater, too.

… though he quoted the wrong part of harvey's post …

harvey: He fails to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians and their supporters will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state and that a Palestinian state is simply a stepping stone to a single Islamic state .

if harvey considers it a fact that the palestinians will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state, then there is nothing for israel to negotiate over, and he is a one-stater

joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 13:20

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0 points

Thanks, Goldfish

But what I'd really like to know is where those such as Richard et al who claim to be two-staters would put the Palestinian state. West Bank? Gaza? Sinai? Jordan? After all, even Kahane could claim to be a two-stater as he called for a Palestinian state in Jordan, to which all those non-Jews west of the River Jordan would be transferred.

Wonder if they'll come back on this without the usual straw man arguments and vituperation.


Harvey

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 13:24

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0 points

Happy
Unfortunately fisking comments doesn't appear to be one of your strong points

Fatah & Hamas : Partners for Peace?
Whilst President Obama, the British Government and the EU seem to be convinced that the Palestinians want a peaceful solution to the conflict with Israel - and that this can be achieved simply by Israel making concessions - Israelis and others are not quite as convinced.
The following statements suggest that the goal of the Palestinian leadership has not changed. Their ultimate goal is the total destruction of Israel.
“According to the phased Plan, we will establish a Palestinian state on any part of Palestine that the enemy will retreat from. The Palestinian state will be a stage in our prolonged struggle for the liberation of Palestine on all its territories.”
Abu lyad, Arafat’s 2nd in command, 1988 (freemiddleeast)
“It doesn’t mean that we don’t want the 1948 borders, but in our current political program we say [to the world] we want a state on the 1967 borders.”
Najat Abu Bakr, Fatah Member of Palestinian parliament, PA TV (Fatah), 25/8/2005
“The Palestinian people will never accept the right of the Jewish people to their own state. Not for 1000 years.”
Abu Mazen , 12/7/2009
“With the two-state solution, in my opinion, Israel will collapse, because if they get out of Jerusalem, what will become of all the talk about the Promised Land and the chosen People? What will become of all the sacrifices they made - just to be told to leave? They consider Jerusalem to have spiritual status. The Jews consider Judea and Samaria to be their historic dream. If the Jews leave those places, the Zionist idea will begin to collapse. It will regress of its own accord. Then we can move forward.”
Abbas Zaki, Fatah Central Committee, 7/5/2009, ANB TV


Mary in Brighton

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 13:33

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0 points

Harvey you have at needless length reinforced Happygoldfishes's point. It would have been quicker and easier to just have said " I agree ".

If two states are impossible on account of the incurable rejectionism of the Palestinians then you are a one stater, unless as RRZ implies, you have another possibility in mind that you are not sharing with us.


happygoldfish

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 13:39

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0 points

happygoldfish: if harvey considers it a fact that the palestinians will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state, then there is nothing for israel to negotiate over, and he is a one-stater

harvey, you do consider it a fact that the palestinians will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state

(never mind whether that fact is right or wrong, which is what you're arguing at length over …)

mary is right …

your opinion is that that fact means that israel must never accept an independent palestinian state


Yoni

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 14:59

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0 points

Why are the usual haters incapable of reading?

IF the 'palestinians' want to have a state (for which they have shown nil evidence so far), recognise Israel and reject Iranian influence, THEN they can have a state.


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 15:09

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0 points

"No, Richard, Harvey's and your position is that of Jewish one-staters. Like the Palestinian one-staters, the BDS mob, PSC, Tonge, JFJFP and other assorted loonies, they want the destruction of our only Jewish and democratic state. For shame, aligning yourselves with anti-zionists like that."

I have always argued for a two state solution, but it just isn't feasible at the moment with what is going on. Only in Millis/Yachad Disneyland is it feasible at the moment.


joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 15:45

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0 points

Good that you argue for a two-state solution. But where would you put the Palestinian state? West Bank-Gaza? Along the 67 line with minor alterations (up to 5% land swap) to take into account demographics? Sinai? Jordan? As you may have noticed, it could be argued that Kahane advocated a two-state solution - Israel and Jordan, where all the non-Jews west of the River would be transferred.

What's it to be, Richard? This time without vituperation try to walk the walk.


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 15:49

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0 points

Clinton Parameters. I'm with President Clinton. Good enough for you?


happygoldfish

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 15:52

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1 point

Yoni: IF the 'palestinians' want to have a state (for which they have shown nil evidence so far), recognise Israel and …

but yoni, harvey considers it a fact that the palestinians will never recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state

harvey: He fails to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians and their supporters will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state …

richmillet: I have always argued for a two state solution, but it just isn't feasible at the moment …

so, rich, you disagree that the palestinians will never accept or recognise the existence of an independent Jewish state?

joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 15:54

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0 points

Clinton parameters seem fine to me. Oh, and that's Yachad's view, too, so welcome to the club


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 16:38

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0 points

No, it's not. You and Hannah have got us all screaming for the exits saying it's now or never because by 2020 it will all be too late because the Palestinians will outnumber the Israelis blahblahblah


joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:01

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-3 points

That's misrepresentation, because therevis practical parity now between Jews and Arabs between the river and the sea. I know, you dispute that - without the vituperative blablahblah - but let me paraphrase Harry Callahan
"I know what you are thinking: are there 1.5 million Palestinians on the West Bank, or 2.5 million, or perhaps more. Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I'm not sure myself. But given that Israel is a democracy and not an apartheid state, why not extend sovereignty to include the West Bank and hold a free election for all the residents. Now you have to ask yourself one question: am I feeling lucky? Well, are you, Richard?"
Time is running out, mate. And like me, I know you would hate to see Israel do to itself what the rest of the Middle East couldn't do in 64 years.


richmillett

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:14

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0 points

Many in Israel want to do just what you and Harry recommend on the basis that there are only 1.41m Palestinians on the West Bank: http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/MSPS65.pdf
Not sure the world would accept it though.


Harvey

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:18

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0 points

Mary
Ideologically I support a two state solution . Two states for two people broadly based on Oslo ie land swops as necessary to take into account settlements blocs. However , going by the comments by Arab leaders and spokesperson as posted , the reality is that there can be no Palestinian state . That does not make me a one stater . It simply makes me a realist rather than a dreamer like the rest of the Peace Now / Yachad campaigners .
The status quo will be maintained which is also unacceptable . It may well lead to Israel annexing the West Bank which solves nothing . Israel will remain a democracy given the Haredi demographic which outstrips Palestinian population increase.

In 1977 Anwar Sadat broke the impasse when he visited Jerusalem and spoke to the Knesset .
In those heady days anything seemed possible .
Land for peace and recognition and so it was with the return of the Sinai .
However , I also respect the honesty of Mr Zaki when he states that any withdrawal will be seen as a milestone in the eventual elimination of Israel . I'm sure I'm not the only one who recognises the impact of that message .


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:26

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0 points

I was thinking that a certain someone would now know better than to bicker with the nut jobs and leave them for me to deal with.

Interesting that Yoni has been pulled out of the glove puppet box.


zaheerayin

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:30

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0 points

Does this mean my dresses are safe now?


Mary in Brighton

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:40

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Harvey how would a little Palestinian state make the " Arab world " more capable of eliminating Israel ?


joemillis1959

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:41

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Well, Richard, it would end the argument about the demographic time bomb once and for all.


zaheerayin

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:44

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0 points

And it would answer the stupid question of how many would have to die as well.


happygoldfish

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 17:59

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1 point

harvey: … the reality is that there can be no Palestinian state . That does not make me a one stater .

erm … yes it does!

Advis3r

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 13:37

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0 points

OK Millis/RRZ given that Mr Zaki said

"The Jews consider Judea and Samaria to be their historic dream. If the Jews leave those places, the Zionist idea will begin to collapse. It will regress of its own accord. Then we can move forward."

Please give us your reasons for supporting a two state solution.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 09:27

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1 point

You ask, Advis3r, the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics own figures reply
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/the-jewish-majority-is-history.prem...
According to the Central Bureau of Statistics (which is subordinate to the Prime Minister's Office ), of the 12 million residents living under Israeli rule, the number of Jews is just under 5.9 million (as of April 25 ). Twelve million minus 5.9 million Jews equals 6.1 million non-Jews. In other words, between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, there is a pretty Jewish state as far as its laws and customs, but the reality is not so democratic. Foreign sources report that Jews had already become a minority in the area of the greater Land of Israel several years ago. From now on, it is an official statistic.
And
http://www.themarker.com/news/macro/1.1841660


happygoldfish

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 11:00

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0 points

joemillis1959: According to the Central Bureau of Statistics (which is subordinate to the Prime Minister's Office ), of the 12 million residents living under Israeli rule …

according to your own link , that "happens" to include the 1.5 million residents of the gaza strip

… the 12 million, which does happen to include the residents of the Gaza Strip …

… which israel evacuated years ago, and which rules itself with its own laws

that leaves 10.5 million, of which 5.9 million are jews


Advis3r

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 11:30

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0 points

Millis statistics do not support a two state solution "from the river to the sea" since the Palestinians time and again tell us they want their own state on historic Judea and Samaria which is to be Jew free and to be able to exercise the fictitious "right of return" to pre-1967 Israel for all "refugees" which they say is a red line and which includes all descendants of the original "refugees" which depending on you ask could number up to four million since it also includes all those "refugees" who now live in the diaspora.
So despite what you claim the Arabs have absolutely no interest in two states for two peoples since they refuse to recognise that there is a Jewish people and constantly attempt to delegitimise any Jewish attachment to land of Israel. So what is it that you want Israel to negotiate - it's own demise?


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 11:44

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1 point

A couple of points about the demography thingy. If you leave out Gaza then according to what we have read above its a pretty close run thing so far as the relative numbers of Jews and non Jews between the river and the se is concerned.

If there isn't quite parity now there soon will be.

But I think Israeli's, given the present " no solution only management " attitude" will probably just have to live with that and whatever it turns out to entail.

The big puzzle for me is that on the one hand Richard, and others tell us that the demographics are fine, no problem, and demographic scare mongering is just blah blah blah. One other hand the same people tell us that one state advocacy is genocidal racism. These statements don't strike me as being capable of being true together.

I am asking Richard here because I am banned from his own blog for quoting Danny Boy Marks racist comments back at him.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:01

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0 points

Advis3r, Israel is non-negotiating its own demise by thinking that by holding on to the occupied territories it can remain a Jewish and democratic state. One thing has to go - the occupied territories or the Zionist ideal.


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:03

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0 points

Goldfish,

Well spotted. However, Although Israel disengaged unilaterally from the Gaza Strip, it still controls the lives of those who live therein.


Michael Gottlieb

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:09

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-2 points

I take great comfort in the fact that our great US of A has a staunch ally in the Middle East called Israel. Israel has sometimes been called the largest aircraft carrier in our fleet. And for good reason. While the whole Mideast region radicalizes and boils over in anti-USA violence and hatred, we can always count on Israel for a safe landing, to represent our real interests and to be our only true friend in this region that hates the West more and more with each passing day. We both share the same Judeo-Christian values. We are both democracies. We are both proud countries that respect human life, human rights and freedoms of all kinds. We are both the West. Like it or not, we need Israel perhaps as much as Israel needs us. I dare say maybe even more. That's why I am more than a bit concerned about our government's misguided foreign policy towards Israel. It seems that far from supporting her as we should be, we're throwing her under a bus. We appease her enemies. We disrespect her prime minister. And most disturbingly, we try to push through what's euphemistically called the "Two State Solution" to the Israel-Palestinian issue.
This Two State Solution is bad for Israel - no, it's deadly for Israel. It's deadly because if this "solution" is crammed down Israel's throat (which is what Obama is trying to do right now), then Israel will be forced to surrender her most important strategic asset – the high ground – and will be left defenseless. She'll be left to swim in a pool full of sharks without a harpoon. Don't believe me? Take a look at the following website for an explanation. The pictures that you'll see herein don't lie. They make a convincing argument why Israel must never agree to this trap called the "Two State Solution". A vote for Obama is a vote for Israel's demise.

Click here: http://shomroncentral.blogspot.co.il/


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:19

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1 point

Funny, that, Michael, because a two-state solution was George W Bush's vision too. And he, the greatest friend Israel ever had in the White House, was the first US president to talk openly about it. What do you want? A binational state, where the Jews aren't the majority? That's a bit anti-Zionist, isn't it?
Lunch break over.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:40

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0 points

Well to the right of us we have those telling us that two states mean the demise of Israel. To the left of us we have those telling us that one state leads to the demise of Israel.

Who to believe. It is so very difficult.

Unless.......no let's not go there.


happygoldfish

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 12:58

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2 points

joemillis1959: Goldfish,
Well spotted. However, Although Israel disengaged unilaterally from the Gaza Strip, it still controls the lives of those who live therein.

(btw, why do you say "unilaterally" … does that bother you, joe? )

no, palestinians in gaza are subject to their own democratically determined gazan laws, enforced by gazan police, gazan courts, and gazan prisons; they raise revenue to fund gazan hospitals, gazan schools, etc, supervised by democratically gazan councillors etc

in the words of the fourth geneva convention, they do not find themselves in the hands of a power other than their own

the lives of gazan residents are controlled by hamas


joemillis1959

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 13:18

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0 points

Nope, Goldfish. Unilateral was a statement of fact. But yes, it does bother me, because nothing good comes out of unilateral actions. And given that unilateral disengagement was meant to put the peace process in formaldehyde, its aim was not exactly honourable.
Israel controls their lives inasmuch as it regulates what goes in and out (in agreement with the US and Egypt). It controls the skies above the strip and access from the sea.
It may not be there physically, but it pretty much determines goes on, irrespective of Hamas.


happygoldfish

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 13:35

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0 points
(yes, i thought that bothered you! )

joemillis1959: … unilateral disengagement was meant to put the peace process in formaldehyde …

uhh?

israel makes a huge concession without anything in return, and you say that disables the peace process?

joemillis1959: Israel controls their lives …

you don't think gazan residents' lives are controlled by hamas?

Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 14:06

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-2 points

It wasn't Hamas that decreed that the Gazans should not have access to lentils, school books etc etc etc.

It wasn't Hamas that " put them on a diet ".


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 14:12

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-2 points

israel makes a huge concession without anything in return,

I made a huge concession once. I took this guys watch. I then sorta kinda gave it back while retaining certain liens. Like when he could wear it etc etc.

And I never got anything in return.


happygoldfish

Tue, 10/16/2012 - 14:25

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0 points

Real Real Zionist: It wasn't Hamas that decreed that the Gazans should not have access to lentils, school books etc etc etc.

afaik, israel has not prevented gazans from getting schoolbooks

if lentils were restricted (i can't remember), they were one of a very few items … food generally was allowed in in abundance

anyway, if i was prevented from access to lentils, but was allowed food generally in abundance, i wouldn't regard my life as being controlled!

Real Real Zionist: It wasn't Hamas that " put them on a diet ".

well, that's just a racist lie

israel has always allowed more than enough food into gaza

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