My speech to tonight's London Pro-Israel Rally


By Jonathan Hoffman
November 15, 2012
Share

Friends

I want to welcome you all to this great show of support for our brothers and sisters in Israel who are yet again forced to confront those who deny their very right to exist. Throughout its 64 year history Israelis have had to defend the State from those who would deny it the right to exist. In 1948; in 1967; in 1973; in 2008 and 2009 in Operation Cast Lead; and now in Operation Pillar of Defence.

And just as before, our enemies will not succeed. Am Yisroel Chai.

We stand here representing the UK. We have among us Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists and probably lot of others as well. We are the Zionist Federation, the JNF, Christians for Israel, Muslims for Israel, Britain Israel Coalition, Likud-Herut. Thanks to the ZF for organising so quickly.

We come from many different backgrounds but we are united in our devotion to Israel and in our conviction that Israel has the right to defend its citizens. We will never allow Israel to fall victim to the same murderous terrorists who killed 52 Londoners on 7 July 2005.

More than 900 rockets have been fired on Israelis living in the South of the country since the beginning of the 2012. Since last Saturday November 10th more than 120 rockets were fired before the launch of Operation Pillar of Defence yesterday. They even hit a children's petting zoo. More than 900 rockets have been fired at Israeli civilians in 2012, compared to a total of 653 for the whole of 2011, and 238 for all of 2010 - less than one third of the total so far this year.

Over 1 million Israelis live in the range of the rockets and their lives are threatened with every launch. Daily life in southern Israel has been totally disrupted.

On Saturday night an anti-tank missile was fired at an IDF jeep traveling on the Israeli side of the border fence. Four IDF soldiers were injured.

No government can tolerate such a level of threat to its population. Israel has shown unbelievable patience but at some point it had to act.

Of course Jeremy Bowen says that Operation Pillar of Defence is just an electoral stunt and nothing whatsoever to do with rocket threats. This is what he wrote on the BBC Website:

But there will be questions about the timing of Israel's action. The Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called an election in January. In the past, military strikes have been used to send messages about the toughness of Israeli leaders.

Jeremy Bowen is wrong – isn’t he?

He is about as wrong as the Newsnight Programme which led to the accusation of Lord McAlpine as a paedophile. He is as wrong as the Newsnight editor who dropped the investigation of Jimmy Saville. He is as wrong as the BBC Director General George Entwhistle who screwed up and walked away with £450,000, twice the amount to which he was contractually entitled.

I have news for Jeremy Bowen. Israel was around long before he was born and will be around long after he's gone - and long after the BBC is gone.

Israel’s leaders would NEVER sacrifice human life merely to win an election. My friends, Operation Pillar of Defence would have happened regardless of the timing of the next Israeli election.

Even the British Foreign Secretary William Hague has shown how wrong Jeremy Bowen is. He said today that the terrorist group Hamas bears "principal responsibility" for the military operation Israel is now conducting in Gaza. He said he "utterly condemned" the rocket attacks by Hamas on southern Israel.

This creates an intolerable situation for Israeli civilians in southern Israel, who have the right to live without fear of attack from Gaza," he said. "The rocket attacks also risk worsening the plight of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, which is already precarious.

Yesterday Israel targetted Ahmed Jabari, Hamas’ military chief in Gaza and an arch-terrorist. Jabri was directly responsible for financing and executing terror attacks against Israel. In 2006, Jabari masterminded the attack that led to the murder of Israeli soldiers and the capture of Gilad Shalit. As head of Hamas' negotiations team, Jabri prevented the release of Gilad Shalit for over five years. Jabri had close connections with Sheikh Yassin. From 1982 until January 1995 Jabri was arrested and imprisoned in Israel. During this time he joined Hamas, serving as the representative for all Hamas and Islamic Jihad members in his prison. Jabri regularly used antisemitic incitement to urge the destruction of Israel.

And those of you who have seen the footage of Jabri’s killing will have noted how careful the IDF was to minimise harm to civilians around the car. Israel is ALWAYS careful to minimise harm to civilians. Israel drops leaflets and even makes phone calls to watrn Gazan civilans to stay well away from Hamas terrorists. In Operation Cast Lead there was an unprecedentedly low civilian casualty rate. While males over age 15 make up approximately 25 percent of the Gaza population, they made up over 74 percent of the fatalities.

Israel has the most moral army in the world. Those words are not mine. They are those of Colonel Richard Kemp, the former British Commander in Afghanistan. In a recent speech to IDF soldiers in Tel Aviv, Richard Kemp cited a United Nations study. Yes United Nations. That study shows that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare. The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed.

That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one.

In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one.

Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.

In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.

Hamas targets civilians. Israel targets terrorists. That is the difference.

My friends the days ahead do not promise to be easy. But we will be steadfast in our love and support fro the people of Israel.

There is a lot you can do in the days ahead. You can speak out at injustices in the media – especially the BBC. Last night the BBC – to its credit – interviewed our friend the wonderful Jonathan Sacerdoti of the Institute for Middle East Democracy. But during his interview they showed scenes of the attacks in Gaza. But they were not careful enough. We saw a great example of what has become known as “Pallywood” – or acting for the cameras. It’s on You-Tube. You see a guy in a black sweatshirt writhing on a stretcher at 2.12 in the clip. Then by 2:43 – miracle of miracles – he is walking – he has made an incredible recovery!

Chaverim -- In the days to come there will be two conflicts – the one in Gaza and Israel and the one in the media.

You can put Israel’s case on social media. Don’t leave Twitter to the Forces of Darkness. Search for hashtags #Gaza and #Israel and stay up to date by following @IDFspokesperson.

In mainstream media you can write to make Israel’s case. You can phone in, eg to LBC, BBC World Service and Any Answers on the BBC. The Forces of Darkness will be doing it, we must too.

You can write to your MPs and to the Foreign Office - Please emphasize how Israel’s targeted attacks are in response to the rocket attacks that have come from Gaza over the last few days. The Forces of Darkness will be doing it, we must too.

You can come to see the Batsheva Dance company at Sadlers Wells next week. The dancers have families in the IDF and in the south of Israel - Come and support them!

We wish the IDF every success, we pray for the safety of all Israelis and we hope that as few as possible civilians in Gaza are harmed. As for the media conflict – that’s up to us to win. We will not let Israel down .. we will not let Israel down …. will we?

Am Yisroel Chai …

Postscript:

Here's the JC's report on the 250-strong pro-Israel demo:

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/91165/pro-palestinian-and-pro-israel-p...

And Richard Millett's:

http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/photos-and-footage-from-l...

COMMENTS

Mary in Brighton

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:04

Rate this:

-3 points

Jonathan that is quite simply awful. Who on earth wrote it ?

Please I don't want some smart ass to say " it wasn't anyone on earth. "


joemillis1959

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:48

Rate this:

0 points

Jonathan, mate, you must have been quite upset to see so few people there - about 50-70 - to hear your Cicero-like oration. And no communal leaders, either. Shocking.

And it must have come as a blow that some of your closest acolytes weren't even in the pen and were gabbing with others(you know who you are, I won't name names, but a severe talking to, lines and detention are in order. And who was that numpty with the tall flag pole with the flags of many nations?).

One issue that you may want to revise.

Of course Jeremy Bowen says that Operation Pillar of Defence is just an electoral stunt and nothing whatsoever to do with rocket threats. This is what he wrote on the BBC Website:
But there will be questions about the timing of Israel's action. The Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called an election in January. In the past, military strikes have been used to send messages about the toughness of Israeli leaders.

You say too that Jeremy Bowen is wrong. Now he's been wrong about many things, including the things you list, but on this occasion, he's right.

Because if you read The Jerusalem Post, of all papers, you'll see it contradicts you when it says that five out of the past seven Israeli elections came immediately after military operations initiated by Israel.

So in that respect, Netanyahu is not being very original. But then again, he hasn't ever had a original thought in his head, being a puppet of the settlers and tycoons.

Anyway, hi, ho, hi, ho it's off to do the devil's work, I go.

Shabbes.


Harvey

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 09:58

Rate this:

0 points

Joe
You don't have to over egg the going to work bit . Like the bloke in the Full Monty who leaves home every morning , kisses the wife good bye and sits in the park for the rest of the day . It's ok .
Seriously Joe , why as an employee ( ahem ) of UJIA do you seem to delight in the fact there were only 70 of us there last night . Surely as a committed Zionist (LOL ) you would have wished to see more . Didn't see you . Were you disguised as one of the NK ?

Incidentally , I lost count of the number of foam PSC loonies pinned by the police against the sides of their vans .


Harvey

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:02

Rate this:

0 points

Mary
You know it's a great speech . You just can't admit it .
Substitute palestine for Israel where appropriate and you will see what I mean


Advis3r

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:10

Rate this:

2 points

Millis spot on with the 5/7 thingy. However you forgot to mention that it boomeranged as much as it questionably assisted the incumbent in the upcoming election.
Having looked at the British media's reporting of this latest conflagration it is truly depressing how months and months of rocket fire against Israel has largely gone unrecorded but when finally Israel decided enough is enough all of a sudden we get "state terrorism" as if the surgical elimination of someone who was the epitome of evil and who was responsible for the loss of countless innocent lives should engender any form of pity. Unfortunately it seems especially in the UK the human rights of an evil uncaring murderer are greater than those of his innocent victims. Shows a complete lack of moral clarity and makes one wonder what would happen if heaven forbid another fascist dictator arose who wanted to dominate the world. I can't see Britain in its present morass having the backbone to stand up to it.


Mary in Brighton

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:25

Rate this:

-2 points

Harvey I can only repeat , it is awful. Full of platitudes , soggy sound bites, tattered hasbara, and excruciating Jonathanisms.


Harvey

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 10:53

Rate this:

1 point

I take it that's a thumbs up


Harvey

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:00

Rate this:

0 points

Seriously Joe
Where did you get 60-70 of us . There was at least 400 of us .
You're just making it up as you go . Tut Tut .


Mary in Brighton

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:17

Rate this:

0 points

Harvey you fibber !!!!!


joemillis1959

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 11:30

Rate this:

0 points

However you forgot to mention that it boomeranged as much as it questionably assisted the incumbent in the upcoming election.

I don't forget, and one can only hope that this is Netanyahu's Peres 1996 Kafr Kana moment.

as if the surgical elimination of someone who was the epitome of evil and who was responsible for the loss of countless innocent lives should engender any form of pity.

Do you mean the guy who ensured Gilad Shalit returned home safely? You know, Israel's sub-contractor in Gaza. Ooops, that's an unfortunate turn of events.


joemillis1959

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 12:18

Rate this:

0 points

Harvey,

Seriously Joe
Where did you get 60-70 of us . There was at least 400 of us .
You're just making it up as you go . Tut Tut .

Yes, I know Gary Sakol, bless his cotton kilt and a good man in an invidious position, said 250, but he would, wouldn't he?

I asked a policeman, fairly high-ranking too, with pips, not yer common or garden PC. Like you do. And to be honest, I thought he was being a bit generous, given that the pen was only 2/3 full. Still, it was better behaved than the other lot.

But I was a bit concerned to see people with Cross of St George flags. I'm sure that as an avowed anti-racist, you were concerned, too. And who was that numpty with the big flag pole with the flags of many nations? He looked quite lonely, poor thing.

And you didn't get my point that rather than being delighted, I was shocked and appalled that the communal leadership didn't turn up - not the Chief Rabbi, not JLC leaders, not the BoD leadership and not top people from UJIA (although they can be excused because they cannot as an educational charity be seen to be political). So much for statements about standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Israel. I look forward to reading Isi Liebler's next column castigating the usual suspects - if he's allowed to write anymore about British Jews, that is.


happygoldfish

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:22

Rate this:

1 point
jeremy bowen is insinuating the racist slur that people have died because that is what wins israeli votes

he relies solely on the proximity of 5 wars to 7 elections, and despite the clear evidence that the election results show the opposite

as jpost says, and as bbc middle-east-editor jeremy bowen knows: "… recent history shows that such actions hurt a sitting government as often as it helps it get reelected."

… the natural conclusion is that any proximity is either statistically insignificant, or is due to other causes

in particular, the last two wars have been immediately after the usa presidential elections …

netanyahu may well have had american electoral reasons to postpone the present war, rather than to advance it … in which case, that obviously left only 3 months before the latest date for the next election (9/2/2013)

lahav harkov, jpost, 15/11/2012: 5 of last 7 elections took place after IDF ops
… making it the fifth election out of the last seven to take place months after an IDF operation

"months" after? with less than 3 years between elections, how long a gap does harkov expect?

the average gap between elections was only 2 years 9 months, and the longest gap (before the present) was 3 years 2 months

one of the 5 elections was 7 months after … in less than 3 years, that's a quite long time!

and of course, a war may cause an election to be called … a successful war may encourage the coalition, and an unsuccessful war may destroy the coalition

israel tends to put wars off as long as possible

israel does not like wars

israeli voters (most of whom are in the army reserves) do not like wars

the bbc should not be hosting the racist insinuation that they do


joemillis1959

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 15:01

Rate this:

0 points

recent history shows that such actions hurt a sitting government as often as it helps it get reelected.

I believe that was the hope I was expressing in response to Norman.

]"months" after? with less than 3 years between elections, how long a gap does harkov expect?

Within the 90-day period that is mandated in Israel after an election is called. Would that they would have snap, 21/28-day campaigns like here.

insinuating the racist slur

and

the bbc should not be hosting the racist insinuation that they do

Lots of racism there, Happy Dictator/Blacklisted Goldfish. Are you sure you aren't related to the long lost Jose/Anthony/BD?

And as for that very lonely person at the ZF demo last night with the long flagpole and the flags of many nations, do you know him?


Ben F

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 15:21

Rate this:

-1 points

Was this the demo?

http://youtu.be/QcQMJJqfeS4


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 16:18

Rate this:

0 points

Happy is running that many obsessions at once he is going to blow a fuse.


joemillis1959

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 18:44

Rate this:

0 points

I have a posting here at Harry's Place.

Today, I lost a very close and dear friend because of the conflict in southern Israel. And that, I think, represents at micro level the relationship between Jews away from Israel and the Israeli state.

It’s not that that friend and I are so far away politically. Quite the opposite, in fact. We both agree that the occupation has dehumanised and brutalised both sides. We both agree that if the Israeli government really cared about the people of Shderot, Ofakim, Beersheba, Netivot (and now Tel Aviv, Holon, Jerusalem and Rishon Le-Zion – close to where my mother lives, by the way), it would try to help build the infrastructure of the periphery rather than wasting huge resources on settlements and yeshivot in order to placate coalition partners who want to maintain the status quo.

We are both liberal, open-minded people who have lived in Israel ourselves, have friends and family there, who love it to bits but are equally frustrated and angry with the Matzav – the situation. I despair about this. My former friend is more positive, and a lot more feeling towards the people of the Negev.

So what, you might ask, is the problem?

For one, I was rude about a number of the person’s postings that gave the impression that all they cared about was the Negev people.
And, from my point of view, and I’ve expressed this in a clumsy and an unfeeling way (that’s me, sorry), every time there’s a crisis in Israel – and let’s be honest, that’s far too frequent – there seems to be an urge to, not to put too fine a point on it, sit around the communal campfire and bask in a warm, fuzzy feeling of solidarity and unity.

That urge, while understandable, has passed me by. Because I think I know that once this particular crisis is over or becomes unpopular here and in Israel – maybe the rockets in the centre mean that Operation Pillar of Cloud/Defence (or Save Netanyahu/Barak, if you like) mean that the operation has jumped the shark – the warm, fuzzy feelings will dissipate very quickly and those of us who believe in a better future (“I can take the despair, but the hope is killing me” sort of people) will at once be branded self-hating Jews, traitors, anti-Zionists, those who give succour to our enemies etc – just like those of us who are dissenting now. While the other side will inevitably be called right-wing nutters, fundamentalists, head-bangers apologists, Israel firsters, hate-mongers and racists. I could go on. There are plenty of epithets thrown at both sides. And that’s why I believe that this warm, fuzzy solidarity and unity around the campfire is false.

And that’s what’s sad. Have I a solution? No. I am sincerely sorry about my friend. I am sincerely sorry about what I’ve said. But the basic beliefs are there. We appear not to have learned the lessons of the 1982 Lebanon War, and the murder of Emil Grunsweig by a right-wing activist. We can criticise Israeli actions, question them, in times of crisis. Friends don’t let friends drive drunk. Dissent is our strength.

Sorry, Slicha, Chaver(a)


joemillis1959

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 18:46

Rate this:

-1 points

There you go again, anthony goldfish. When you are busted, you are busted and reposting your stuff every five minutes just gives away the game and shows your desperation.

joemillis1959 Lots of racism there, Happy Goldfish
ah yes, you like criticising anti-racists
joe, do you agree that implying that people have died because that is what wins israeli votes is racist?
if so, what is your objection to my pointing it out?

It's very sad that you are so disturbed. I suggest you get help.

So when you answer these, I'll happily answer yours.

Are you sure you aren't related to the long lost Jose/Anthony/BD?
And as for that very lonely person at the ZF demo last night with the long flagpole and the flags of many nations, do you know him?

You see, that game you play when you leapfrog posts is what he used to do? And yesterday, at the time of the demo, the leapfrogging was missing. Strange that. He also used to call everything and anything racism. There's someone on Richard Millet's blog called Jose who does exactly the same.

Nu?


happygoldfish

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 09:22

Rate this:

2 points

joemillis1959 It's very sad that you are so disturbed. I suggest you get help.

i'm not the one who "lost a very close and dear friend", and only apologised after she died
joe, be nice to people!
(and fish! )

Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 10:15

Rate this:

2 points

Joe you have accumulated a lot of negative responses to your post on harry's Place - pity you can't take it down like you can here!


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 10:17

Rate this:

-2 points

Interesting letter published very recently in The Church Times.

For those who know nothing about him Paul Oestreicher is a retired and extremely widely respected CofE Canon

Sir, - That the Bishop of Newcastle and his Roman Catholic colleague cancelled their attendence at a meeting on "Justice and Peace in the Holy Land" (News, 2 November) organised by members of the Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme was a predictable, but very sad, sign of the times.

The Board of Jewish Deputies, supported by the Council of Christians and Jews and equivalent bodies in the United States and across Europe, has seen to it that any public criticism of Israel's policy is decried as proof of a revival of anti-Semitism. It is usually, as in this case, nothing of the kind.

A whole series of German churches have recently been leaned on to cancel their support for an exhibition that shows the past and present suffering of the Palestinian people. Only one version of a complex history is deemed to be fit for public consumption.

No charge is more painful to sensitive Christians than that of anti-Semitism. It is a highly effective weapon, silencing even those with a proven record of fighting against anti-Semitism.

The two Bishops, with the best intent in the world, were intimidated, not to say blackmailed, because they had been told that "many Jewish people in the north-east were angry and upset."

What they were not told is that other Jewish people in Britain and in Israel with no official voice are deeply ashamed of many aspects of Israeli policy. They are usually dismissed by the Jewish establishment as self-hating Jews, a ludicrous charge.

History repeats itself in strange ways. When Hitler's persecution of the German Jews began in the 1930s, their best friend in our Church was Bishop Bell of Chichester, who roundly condemned Nazi policies. Even some of his fellow bishops then accused him of being anti-German. Later events proved him to be the very opposite, when he was a lone voice protesting against the blanket bombing of German civilians.

Why will this issue not leave me alone? Because of my Jewish heritage, because of my grandmother, who was one of Hitler's victims. I care passionately for the future of the people of Israel, but, if that future is to be bought at the price of the continuing suffering of the Palestinian people, then it flies in the face of all that is good in Judaism.

Critical solidarity with both Israelis and Palestinians need be no threat to Christian-Jewish friendship. On the contrary, it should strengthen our common struggle against the dual poisons of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

Paul Oestreicher


Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 11:01

Rate this:

2 points

Let's see. I want to make certain that I have this correct. It is very confusing.
If Israel pinpoints and executes terrorist leaders who have aided in planning attacks on innocent civilians, that is bad.
If the United Kingdom declares war on IRA terrorist leaders who aided in planning attacks in London and Birmingham, that is good.
If Israel has to compromise some civilian rights of Arabs in order to protect its citizens from murderous assault, that is bad.
If the United Kingdom must take cautionary steps that limit immigration and other freedoms in order to protect its citizens from murderous assault that is good.
If Israel will not negotiate with terrorists or their governmental supporters until all acts of terrorism stop, that is bad.
If the United Kingdom did not consider any deals that did not include the surrender of the IRA top echelon and its terrorist thugs, that was good.
If Israel, with its international isolation, must work with less than pure regimes, then that is bad.
If the United Kingdom worked with terrorist sponsors such as Pakistan and Syria to win its own security, then that was good.
If Israel tries to become part of the coalition against terrorism, it is bad. (Could offend some Moslem State so Turkey refuses it entry).
If the United Kingdom counts on Israel, in spite of the rejection, to provide it with major information about terrorists, then that is good.
If Israel protests the wanton destruction of Jewish artifacts and shrines in Nablus and the Temple Mount, it is annoying, seemingly petty and, therefore, quite bad.
If the United Kingdom reacts with justifiable anger at the wanton destruction of symbols of UK's achievements and power, it is right, moral and good.
When murderous missiles from Gaza attack Israel's civilian population, Israel is warned not to retaliate by the United Kingdom since that would be bad, especially not to go in and launch a land attack against the terrorists.
When not even the United Kingdom's civilian population in Afghanistan was attacked by murderous missiles and terrorists, the UK vowed massive retaliation, and sent its troops in to deal with the Taliban terrorists that was very very good.

You must admit it is very confusing.


Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 11:04

Rate this:

2 points

"Because of my Jewish heritage, because of my grandmother, who was one of Hitler's victims. I care passionately for the future of the people of Israel, but, if that future is to be bought at the price of the continuing suffering of the Palestinian people, then it flies in the face of all that is good in Judaism" That's why he became a Christian?

Another anti-Semite using the I have holocaust survivors in my family card so I can say what i like about Israel eg Gerald Kaufman Norman Finklefeffer et al


Mary in Brighton

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 11:24

Rate this:

-1 points

Let's see I want to make sure I have this correct. Are you saying that of all people, Paul Oestreicher is a racist ?


happygoldfish

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 11:45

Rate this:

2 points

Real Real Zionist For those who know nothing about him Paul Oestreicher is a retired and extremely widely respected CofE Canon

For those who know something about him , paul oestreicher is a supporter of jews for justice for palestinians, and of very few other jews (who he regards as having a less-than-human face), and in particular is proud of his solidarity against israeli popular opinion (which incidentally he compares with germany "in the days of hitler") …

paul oestreicher, guardian, 20/2/2006In Britain, Jews for Justice for Palestinians organises to give Jewishness a human face.

My concern, however, is to express solidarity with the Israel that is not represented by its leaders or popular opinion. … There is such an Israel too. Its voices are still free to speak, though often reviled and misunderstood. That Israel has my solidarity, as all Jews have my love and prayers.

paul oestreicher is following the age-old antisemitic line of attributing undue influence to jews

Real Real Zionist The two Bishops, with the best intent in the world, were intimidated, not to say blackmailed

A whole series of German churches have recently been leaned on

if only there was a support group for church of england bishops, or for all those german churches, against all those jews with their less-than-human faces!

oestreicher unfortunately has a delusion that christians who disagree with him can only do so because we jews have got at them

(but don't worry! … we have his love and prayers! )


Real Real Zionist

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 11:57

Rate this:

-2 points

I am not worrying.You were long ago consigned to playing by yourself in the loony bin corner.


Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 11:58

Rate this:

2 points

Mary - yes! For all the reasons happy was kind enough to provide. According to Oestreicher the only good Jews are dead ones or they would be if they followed his advice. Our future is not being bought at the expense of Palestinian suffering. So-called Palestinian suffering (the Palestinians receiving the greatest amount of foreign aid per capita than any other recipient in the world) is being used to try and choke the life out of the State of Israel aided by people like Ostreicher.
I neither want his love or his prayers.

If you want a true Christian who is supportive of Israel you need go no further than...the Rev Peter Mullen

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/petermullen/100190323/finally-the-bbcs...

Someone who really gets it.


Mary in Brighton

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 12:17

Rate this:

-2 points

Advsr only someone completely demented could think Paul Oestreicher was racist. It maybe could be regarded as an example of how " racist " and "antisemitic " have been degraded by deliberate misuse and as Paul observes used as blackmail .

I think it best that you join happygoldfish in the corner that rrz referred to.


Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 14:18

Rate this:

2 points

Mary you obviously do not subscribe to the widely accepted definition of what an anti-Semite is. And if a corner is required I should imagine a demented anarchist is more appropriate for that position.

On 4th November 2008 the Guardian published an article by the Canon about Kristallnacht as the CST's Mark Gardner pointed out in
Antisemitic Discourse in Britain in 2008

Next, Oestreicher reached the
conclusion of his article. He began by
portraying Israel’s creation in 1948 as
Holocaust survivors having expelled
Palestinians (making no mention of the
1947 United Nations partition plan, nor
the failed Arab attempt to destroy
Israel after its 1948 declaration of
independence); and then portrayed this
as both a threat to world peace, and as
being today’s legacy of historical
antisemitism and the Holocaust:
The article then recalled how in the
1930s a British bishop had been wrongly
accused of being anti-German when he
called for British opposition to Hitler.
Oestreicher compared this with his own
position on Jews and Israel; insinuating
that only a very small number of Israelis
care about Palestinians, and that anyone
who supports such Israelis is accused
of antisemitism.
“…Today, those of us who offer our
solidarity to the minority of Israelis
working - in great isolation - for justice
for the Palestinian people, are often
accused of being antisemitic. The
opposite is true. It is a tragic parallel.”
By calling these accusations a “tragic
parallel” with the British bishop and
Nazi Germany, Oestreicher reinforced
the notion that Palestinians are the new
Jews, thereby implying that Jews are
the new Nazis of the 1930s, and
reinforcing his previous warning
about “sowing the seeds of another
holocaust”.

I stand by my comment.


zaheerayin

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 14:50

Rate this:

-2 points

"I stand by my comment."

We don't mind you standing, just so long as it's in the corner.


Mary in Brighton

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 14:54

Rate this:

-2 points

lol


Mary in Brighton

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 14:59

Rate this:

-2 points

Paul Oestreicher is the sweetest and most humane man anyone could ever wish to meet. He has been a chaplain at the University of Sussex for many years and is much loved by everyone. I have no intention of discussing him further with the likes of Happy goldfish and Advis3r.


Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 15:05

Rate this:

2 points

Zaheeryin usual inane comment at least it gave the demented Brighton anarchist a giggle.

By the way how do you two reconcile your supposedly liberal outlook on life while at the same time supporting as you clearly do anti-Semitic violent religious extremists who represent ultra right-wing values on issues such as democracy, freedom of the press, the rights of women, gays, and religious minorities?

Just asking.


Advis3r

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 15:17

Rate this:

2 points

Mary I had no intention of discussing this with you - in my experience discussing anything with you is an exercise in futility.

There have been many sweet anti-Semites - they killed Jews with their love. I hope you and the canon will be very happy.

For my part any one who compares Israel with Nazi Germany is an anti-Semite. I don't recall the German Jews calling for the destruction of Germany or blowing themselves up in German cafes or on school buses. The canon is of the view that we stole what was ours from a people who at the time did not even exist and would prefer that we now commit suicide to show how humane we are.

He is going to be disappointed.


J.Clifford

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 15:52

Rate this:

2 points

There was me absolutely taken in and believing that Joe Millis had lost his friend (I actually thought he/she had died) had reflected on his nasty spiteful behaviour and was going to change. Wrong! His obsession with Jonathan(together with the other trolls on here) is more importaant to him than unity with Israel at this time. Joe you told me your mother lives there so what are you doing to help her, can she get to a shelter in time, is she managing who is helping her to cope?

You who support the anti-Semites who inhabit this blog feign surprise when you get your comeuppance at Harry's place. Even more astonished when your anti Zionist remarks come back to haunt you. So I suggest you have a period of real reflection and contemplate what you want to achieve because Zionist you are not, contrite no way, a better person not likely.


joemillis1959

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 17:41

Rate this:

0 points

Happy, I am sorry you misunderstood, but the person is not dead - thank God 1000 times. We had a falling out because of my stupidity.


happygoldfish

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 18:05

Rate this:

1 point

joemillis1959 Lots of racism there, Happy Goldfish

ah yes, you like criticising anti-racists

joe, do you agree that implying that people have died because that is what wins israeli votes is racist?

if so, what is your objection to my pointing it out?

or do you defend jeremy bowen against a charge of racism (and criticise those who criticise him) by your usual claim that, no matter how anti-israeli (or anti-jewish) someone is, they can't be accused of racism because there's no such thing as anti-israeli (or anti-jewish) racism?

joemillis1959

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 18:06

Rate this:

-1 points

Being anti-Israel isn't racist. Because Israelis aren't a race - Israel is a state made up of many and varied races (Jews aren't a race either, we are a people or nationality) - so your whole premise is, I'm afraid to say, quite mistaken.


zaheerayin

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 18:07

Rate this:

-1 points

Looks to me like some people need to make Aliyah fast....


joemillis1959

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 18:34

Rate this:

0 points

There's antisemitism, for sure. But as Jews are not a race, and we don't self-define as such - you can have European, North African, Sub-Saharan African, Middle Eastern, Asian (Cochin, Goa and Karachi) and Chinese Jews, most of whom have the "racial" characteristics of the host society - then, no, sorry, there is no such thing as anti-Jewish/anti-Israel racism. And, I'm sure you know this, not all Israelis are Jews - about 25% aren't (according to my CIA World Factbook and the Ladybird Book of Countries ;-)).

As for Bowen, he's got an agenda which isn't pro-Israel or even neutral. So I can't defend the indefensible.


joemillis1959

Mon, 11/19/2012 - 18:54

Rate this:

0 points

Janet, thank you for your concern about my mother. At 80, and as she has gone through the Blitz in South East London, near Deptford and Woolwich dockyards, she has a somewhat stoical view about Hamas's rockets.

However, if push came to shove, my sister who lives in a leafy community near Kfar Saba would be down Route 6 like a shot to take her there - even, as I suspect because she's a stubborn old bird - she wouldn't want to go.

I'm sure I could do more. I think we all could do more, and if it would help, I'd be on a plane out. But I'm 15 years out of reservist age and probably two generations behind on weaponry and technology. So they'd have to train me up.

Regarding Jonathan Hoffman, as you may have noticed I haven't engaged with the trolls, because, quite frankly, they ain't worfit. In fact, I've looked at RRZ's little sideline - which some here accused me of being behind - and it is one of the most pathetic, small minded and sickest blogs I've ever seen.

It'll come as no surprise to you that I disagree hugely with Jonathan's views and methods. However, I cannot fault him on dedication and tenacity. And if the term "indefatigability" hadn't become a joke because of Gorgeous George, I'd salute him for it.

Now for the Harry's Place Blog piece - and this is a response to Norman, too.

I fully expected the vituperation. It really came as no surprise. I put it out there and I had no intention to bring it down, even if I could. It wasn't comeuppance, just a fulfilling of very low expectations.

I can't change people's views and I can't change the past. I can't change people's reactions and behaviour, either. I can, however, change my reaction, which means that I would rather debate than rise to the bait. So, to that end, I will not respond to invective and I will endeavour not to launch into any myself.

Life's too short, the blood pressure's too fragile and the heart's too precious to have or cause an aneurysm or coronary.

That's not to say my views are any different. We are all passionate about Israel, and where passions are involved, tempers sometimes get frayed. I doubt you'll agree with me and I with you - and I know that we won't convince each other - but I'm sure that we want the democratic Jewish state to prosper. It is, after all, the only democratic Jewish state there is, and if it goes belly up, I doubt we'd get another chance for another 2000 years.

We probably don't agree on the "why" and "how", but I am sure we do agree on the "what". That is, what we all want is a safe and stable Israel living within secure and recognised boundaries if not at peace with its neighbours then in some kind of modus vivendi.

So I'm all for unity with Israelis - especially those whose blue skies are polluted with kassams, Grads and fajrs - but I cannot support its government which I believe thinks that it can abandon the people of the Negev once again after the rockets stop falling.

I might be naive in thinking this, but I believe that the Negev deserves better infrastructure (roads, other transport links and industry) and better education - the region has some of the worst performing schools in Israel (which is a shame for a country blessed with so much talent and energy).

I still find it shocking that Ashdod, a city of 210,000 that is around 56 years old, doesn't have a hospital yet. People from Ashdod, which as you know is a major port, have to travel 30 minutes to Kaplan, in Rehovot, or 30 minutes to Barzilai in Ashkelon - which even now is not properly protected - if they need surgery or other serious medical treatment. And if you live in Kiryat Gat, home to about 50,000 people and Intel Israel, you've got even further to travel - and let's not forget Ofakim, Netivot, Shderot, and further afield Dimona and Yerucham. (In its previous incarnation, as JIA, UJIA helped Project Renewal in Ashkelon and Dimona. But katyushas from Lebanon were considered "more sexy", so UJIA now helps the people of Upper Galilee - and is doing a fantastic job).

It's with those people I am united, not with the politicians of all parties - left and right - who have repeatedly let them down.

So let's try and generate more light and less heat. We will all benefit, as will Israel and its supporters of all stripes in this country. Do you not agree?


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 09:11

Rate this:

-1 points

Is Joe looking to kiss and make up with Jonathan ?


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 09:37

Rate this:

-1 points

" Is Joe looking to kiss and make up with Jonathan "

Ha ha yeah,someone has had a word.

"In fact, I've looked at RRZ's little sideline - which some here accused me of being behind - and it is one of the most pathetic, small minded and sickest blogs I've ever seen."

Of course you think that Joe. You have taken more than a look. You have been an avid follower and have bombarded us with suggested input which we ignore, largely because your " information " is invariably wildly inaccurate.

"So let's try and generate more light and less heat."

Just how far along the road to Damascus did you get Joe ?

Whats happened Joe ? Who has had a word ? I can always tell when you have been hit with a crisis that has caused you airbrush your previous comments and try to cover your ass. You are a compulsive bickerer Joe.It has got you into trouble in the past and will get you into trouble again. Needless to say I am unlikely to feel inclined to help you out again.

BTW it's " try to....." not " try and...."


zaheerayin

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 09:47

Rate this:

-1 points

Joe, how do people know which side of your mouth to slap you on?


Mary in Brighton

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 09:50

Rate this:

-1 points

The side that's moving silly. Joe has screwed up right ?


AlistairClark

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 10:50

Rate this:

-2 points

I think Israel should give Palestinian people more hope,especially in Gaza.I'd like to see it not being worthwhile firing rockets at Israel but what really do the Palestinian people have left as they live in miserable poverty.Israel needs peace,maybe it'll happen soon when Mazen goes to the UN .Both Peoples should not need to live in fear or with demonisation. Security,peace and borders will boost Israel into the worlds top countries .


AlistairClark

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 10:54

Rate this:

-2 points

Mr Millis,I love your posts and blogs.I love pro Israelis with a sane train of thought.


happygoldfish

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 12:22

Rate this:

2 points

joemillis1959 Jews aren't a race either, we are a people or nationality

let me get this straight

you regard a landlord's notice "no irish, no dogs, no blacks" as racist?

but you regard a landlord's notice "no dogs, no jews" as not racist?

because jews aren't a race?

joemillis1959 Being anti-Israel isn't racist. Because Israelis aren't a race - Israel is a state made up of many and varied races

and you regard a university or union which won't employ israelis as not racist?

(and what about the palestinians? do you regard it as possible to be an anti-palestinian racist?

do we live in a wonderful world where israelis and palestinians find it impossible to be racist to each other?)


joemillis1959

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 12:56

Rate this:

0 points

Happy,

let me get this straight …
you regard a landlord's notice "no irish, no dogs, no blacks" as racist?
but you regard a landlord's notice "no dogs, no jews" as not racist?
because jews aren't a race?

I take your point, but unfortunately we are using 19th/20th century to describe a 21st-century problem.

If we break it down, then "No Irish" would be discriminatory and liable for prosecution under the Equality Act (2010). "No Blacks" would be liable for prosecution under the Race Relations Acts, the latest being 2010. "No Dogs" I suppose would be doggist. ;-)

and you regard a university or union which won't employ israelis as not racist?
(and what about the palestinians? do you regard it as possible to be an anti-palestinian racist?
do we live in a wonderful world where israelis and palestinians find it impossible to be racist to each other?)

No, it would be discriminatory under the Equality Act (2010) and I hope Professor Moty Cristal and Ronnie Fraser win their cases and sue the arsenal off those who allegedly (I have to write that for legal reasons) discriminated against them.

Just as a footnote, Jews in this country are protected under the Race Relations Act, and that was the reason the Chief Rabbinate failed in its fight over the JFS admissions case.


joemillis1959

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:00

Rate this:

0 points

RRZ

The only time I contacted you was to point out that if you didn't remove something, I'd consult m'learned friends. And although you went all sulky, you did remove it.

Second, not being a tankie or a Trot, no one gets to me and no one - but no one - can tell me what to do and/or say and write.

But thanks for the grammatical correction.


Real Real Zionist

Tue, 11/20/2012 - 13:45

Rate this:

0 points

If you say so Joe. However, whatever else you think about me I am sure you know that I would not be stupid enough to say such a thing without the evidence. Knowing as you do that I am a big fan of evidence.

Maybe I might still hear from your learned friends ?

As for sulky you made that up. I made it perfectly clear that while I didn't give a flying chit about your learned friends I did not want a situation in which someone else was being blamed for our activities to go unchecked.I would therefore remove the offending comment out of politeness. Maybe you should read the appropriate email again.

POST A COMMENT

You must be logged in to post a comment.