EAPPI and the Church of England: "Jewish Over-Lobbying" was to blame...!!!


By Jonathan Hoffman
July 11, 2012
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-lobbying-with-the-church-of-england-...

"A few people said that all the lobbying from the Jewish side led us to vote the other way,” said the Rt. Revd. Nigel McCulloch, who is chair of the Council of Christians and Jews (CCJ), the UK’s oldest Jewish-Christian interfaith group. “There was over-lobbying by some members of the Jewish community. The CCJ actually warned against this, as we know how the Synod works and it’s not a good way to get things done.”

So let's get it straight..............:

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/69693/church-synod-vote-support-eappi-...

First the Synod rides roughshod over the concerns of Jews (though hardly overwhelmingly: 55% of the Bishops approved EAPPI and 58% of the Clergy and the Lay members). Moreover those who voted for EAPPI cannot be called to account because (to the best of my knowledge - I would welcome correction) no breakdown of the voting by name is published.

Did Rowan Williams vote for EAPPI for example? We will never know. He can hide behind anonymity it seems.

Second - just to twist the knife - we are told that some of the Synod members said (anonymously again of course) that they voted for EAPPI just to spite the Jews who wrote to them (incidentally how do they know which of the representations they received were from Jews? Have these clerics been taking lessons from Richard Ingrams?)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/howard-jacobson/howard...

"Naughty Jews - you tried too hard..."

Seems to be the same old story:

Jews Can't Win

The Synod members who supported EAPPI should be hanging their heads in shame. But of course they aren't.

And their actions place the Queen (the Head of the Church of England) in an impossible position with regard to the vast majority of her Jewish subjects who find the Synod decision repugnant.

Postscript #1:

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishFeatures/Article.aspx?id=277177

Rowan Williams abstained.

Postscript #2:

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/69840/board-cancels-meeting-archbishop...

Rowan Williams said “There are some people, in their uncritical assumption that the government of Israel can do no wrong, who are clearly going to be very irritated by information being disseminated of the kind that EAPPI does.”

Shame on him. This is the kind of moronic comment seen on 'Guardian:Comment is Free'. However he is ever silent about the main threat to Christians in the Middle East:

http://www.anglicanfriendsofisrael.com/2006/12/a-challenge-to-dr-rowan-w...

He also said “Half an hour at Yad Vashem will persuade you, if you need persuading, why the state of Israel needs to exist securely. Half an hour at a check-point will persuade you, if you need persuading, that there are forms of security that are indefensible and unsustainable.”

Another appalling comment. Israel has the same right to exist securely as any other country. It does not depend on the Holocaust! And the checkpoints are there to stop suicide bombers - does Williams know nothing? And the juxtaposition of Holocaust and checkpoint references borders on the antisemitic.

Postscript #3:

Melanie Phillips is spot-on:

http://phillipsblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/07/the-synods-shame-.html

Jonathan Arkush's on-the-spot account of just how nasty the Synod debate was:

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/analysis/69849/jewish-stereotype...

Ruth Gledhill apoologises to JC readers on behalf of the Church of England:

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/analysis/69845/my-church%E2%80%9...

COMMENTS

Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 09:09

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd28oaF2KII&feature=related

I assume the motion to sever all links with the CofE is being tabled by Hoffie. Hard to believe there is another Deputy so addicted to abject failure.


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 10:03

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Severing links with the Ch of Eng will hurt the church how ?


Hannah

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:16

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Can't the US just make it go away too?


Bonnie Prince C...

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:26

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1 point

And what would Real Real Zionist have us do? This response is so typical of him. He's very good at being gratuitously insulting to people like Jonathan Hoffman who devote themselves to trying to stem the tide of Israel demonisation and delitimisation, but I've yet to see one positive suggestion from him.

I don't always agree with what Jonathan says and does, but I respect the fact that he is actively seeking to defend Israel whereas the vast majority simply sit on their a**ses and criticise.

So here's a wee challenge, RRZ. What would you have us do to undo the damage done by this action taken by the CoE? What action would you have taken to prevent it and why didn't you?

Over to you.


Advis3r

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:29

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That's like asking a chimpanzee to explain Einstein's theory or relativity - the reponse you'll get will be equally as enlightening.


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:36

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Well the first thing I would do is ponder the question posed by Mary above.


KatieCarslake

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:38

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-2 points

If certain people have their way, we all would end up being perceived as a bunch of hysterical, paranoid cry babies.


Hannah

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:42

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A great deal seems to be made of the fact that the accompaniers spend only 1 week of their several months stay in '48 Israel. I don't see how this is surprising when the objective is to gain experience of the occupation. They are not going to learn much about that experience in Tel Aviv, are they?


Chris Tucker (not verified)

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:47

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Hey that's how I'm going to make my millions. Set up a virtual occupation experience in the Tel Aviv Hilton, 10,000 bucks a head. An extra 5 grand if you want some rocks to throw, and an extra 10 if you want a tear gas canister shot at your head from point blank range.


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:50

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lol


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 11:54

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Jose would they be South African, French, Spanish or Milton Keynes chimpanzees ?

Better get on with it Chris else some American sure as hell gonna beat you to it.


Advis3r

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:27

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As I said Bonnie Prince Charlie RRZ is a gift that keeps giving you can see more of his "pearls" of wisdom on Richard Millets website where he posts variously as "Rich" or "rich".


Hannah

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:33

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My guess is that we will not hear any more of this motion to sever all ties with the Church of England. It won't be brought, and if it is, it won't be discussed.


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:39

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Yep, it will end up in the same trash bin as his motion to boycott the Guardian.


Bonnie Prince C...

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:44

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That's the response of a charlatan. Ponder a bit give me a real answer.


Bonnie Prince C...

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:45

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And what would you have us do? Please give us the benefit of your wisdom.


zaheerayin

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:49

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Bonnie Prince C...
"That's the response of a charlatan."

For some silly reason, I find that hysterical coming from someone using the name Bonnie Prince Charlie.


Bonnie Prince C...

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:53

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Another smart-ass answer from RRZ, totally lacking in intellect and substance. Why does he/she not respond to my original challenge or at least have the honesty and integrity to admit that a proper answer is beyond him/her?


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:54

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What exactly is it you want to do Charlie ? Change the decision ? That isn't going to happen.

What is your objective ? If I can in any way relate to it I will tell you how I would go about it. Obviously if it doesn't make any kind of sense to me I won't be able to help you.


Bonnie Prince C...

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 12:54

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What's the silly reason?


Yvetta

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:00

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Depressing news, Jonathan.

Anyhow, the churches are all at by the look of things

daphneanson.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/methodist-ministers-denounce-their-pro.html


Bonnie Prince C...

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:01

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Yet another non-answer!!! I know that whatever action is taken is not going to change the decision. My objective is simply to find out if you have any ideas which might be helpful in resolving the obvious damage to the relationship caused by this decision and any which might help pre-empt similar situations in the future. You criticise others for what they do, but you don't seem to offer any alternative.


zaheerayin

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:05

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Maybe Chris would throw in a photo-op with the Bonnie Prince, here?


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:38

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Ending the brutal illegal occupation would go a long way towards pre empting similar situations don't you think ?

Charlie, my position is clear and very simple.My thanks to Finkelstein and his famous interview for helping to chrystalise it for me.If this sounds plagiaristic it is probably because it is a little.

Israel is a State, that is the law.It also is a sorta kinda half a democracy.That is a lot better than the majority of states in the world. But I am not concerned about that. What Israel is is Israel's business. I can have an opinion but everyone has got one.

Further, Israel purports to be a liberal, western kind of place. The days of conquest and rule are over.Israel has internationally recognised borders. Nowadays states are expected to stick within their internationally recognised borders and the civilised ones do so. If Israel were to do the same, game over so far as I am concerned. Problem solved.Move on.

So long as this occupation goes on situations such as we have been discussing will recur and with a frequency increasing at an exponential rate.There is NOTHING you can do about it.It is the price of Israel's sensibility lag. So I wouldn't waste energy on trying to counteract it. You are on a loser.

I prefer to do whatever my humble inadequate best allows to work towards the redemption of Zionism which I cannot see ever envisaged the occupation and subjugation of one people by another.Correct me if I am wrong.

Care to join me ?

And do understand that for Hoffman this has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel or the Church of England. It is, as always, about him maximising the amount of attention he can attract to himself.


zaheerayin

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:53

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Does Jonathan have any plans to update his profile picture? I would hate to vote for the wrong person.

Jonathan, RRZ has stated his position. Your turn? What vision do you have for solving the problem of Israel/Palestine?

BPC's question is like a child coming home from school and saying "Mummy, each day on my way home from school I walk through this pond and it makes me all muddy. What can we do about it?"


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:55

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And Jonathan's Mummy said "can't you try another pond?"


zaheerayin

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:56

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Mary, behave.


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 13:57

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-3 points

Shan't.


Advis3r

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 14:00

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-1 points

Since there is no occupation I wonder how one can end it. Everybody thinks they are an International Lawyer and just repeat the spin put out by Arab propagandists.
Please tell us whose territory is it that Israel is purportedly occupying?


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 14:06

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I devoted the last few moments trying to think of a word that adequately describes Advs3r and the best I have been able to come up with is " Jose "


J.Clifford

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 14:13

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RRZ with his brown nose hat on wrote in another place "At the end of the day, though, how big a deal is this really? After all, not too many people care what the synod says or does. What's CoE attendance nowadays? 3% and falling."

So he really doesn't know or care about the subject under discussion so he attacks Jonathan who does know and care. He then attacks Israel even though he made more than one attempt to make aliyah and live there but the poor love couldn't hack it.

Don't worry Mary and all his other lickle trolls he is trying to re-invent himself at the moment as a Brown Nose extraordinaire. It probably won't last long (it never does) so maybe his "Mummy can find him another pond."


Advis3r

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 14:39

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RRZ you didn't answer the question only come up with your usual dodgy response. So let's for argument sake say I am Jose you still haven't answered the question.
Please tell us whose territory is it that Israel is purportedly occupying?


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 15:09

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Janet the only aliyah I ever attempted was from East Yorkshire to South Bucks. What on earth are you talking about ?

Though you are right on one point the matter of C of E attendance is a matter of sublime indifference.What has C of E attendance got to do with any of this ?


Advis3r

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 15:14

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-1 points

RRZ:Please tell us whose territory is it that Israel is purportedly occupying?


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 15:27

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"At the end of the day, though, how big a deal is this really? After all, not too many people care what the synod says or does. What's CoE attendance nowadays? 3% and falling."

Janet when and where did I say this ? I don't deny it , it sounds like me but I would be interested ( in passing ) to be reminded. "Another place " sounds very mysterious.( Unless you just made it up )Or unless Hoffie made it up. Are you in fact Hoffie as some claim ?


Advis3r

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 15:31

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RRZ:Please tell us whose territory is it that Israel is purportedly occupying?


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 15:37

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-2 points

Well Jonathan is not averse to donning a dress when the situation requires it but I doubt in this case.


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 15:42

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ha ha I doubt it too.But with Hoffie you just never can tell.


Harvey

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 16:14

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Mary
Would that be like Brucie donning an orange .
Apologies for my late arrival . I've been enjoying a great day out at the Air show so how about some strictly OT . Israeli aeronautical stands crammed full of suits with pens locked and loaded and in free flow . Those tills were kchinging big time .
Still it's always important to have a counter balance and the thought of the bds fruit Taliban making their way round Edgware Road intimidating bewildered shop keepers into removing a few dates is sure enough to strike fear into the hearts of Israeli exporters .
Or not !


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 16:34

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-2 points

Lol just a touch off topic Harvey but I am glad you had a good day. Goodness knows you are due one or two. Some good tips ?


Harvey

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 17:19

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Sure Mary
Don't show up here tomorrow . There are some real heavy duty security patrolling the perimeter with dogs that are not of the poodle variety . Ahava it is not .
Actually on second thoughts do !


zaheerayin

Thu, 07/12/2012 - 17:54

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Harvey only has one topic. Getting into his cab for the first time is probably ok, but imagine the nightmare of second and subsequent times.


happygoldfish

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 09:42

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(sorry to return to the topic of the church of england! )
(why do i have to post information pieces like this in someone else's blog? )

eappi isn't the only racist organisation supported by CofE member churches

from the website of st john's church at waterloo

The Waterloo Festival returns for its second year celebrating Waterloo and its rich diversity past and present, this time with the theme of ‘War and Peace’. From Thursday 12 July until Tuesday 17 July 2012, St John’s Waterloo, its Crypt and environs are hosting multiple events …

For the duration of the Waterloo Festival, funds are being raised for The Poppy Factory (registered charity no 225348), which works to help wounded, injured and sick ex-Service men and women find meaningful employment in the communities where they live around the UK (www.poppyfactory.org). The second beneficiary charity for 2012 is Amos Trust (registered charity no 292592), which promotes justice and hope for forgotten communities (www.amostrust.org).

so attend the st john's church tea dance today (2pm-4pm), and make a donation to an organisation whose homepage (http://www.amostrust.org/) promotes the idea that israelis regard the palestinians as not human

the homepage is quite small, the centre (roughly half the page) is a video, and the rest is just links, to left and right of the video

the video picture shows a happy palestinian mother and baby behind a metal fence, it is very tempting to watch the video, and the amos trust is clearly promoting it as its primary feature

the video is entirely a 2.5 minute song presenting the israelis as regarding palestinians as not human, and as despising them, and says that anyone saying that palestinians are humans is "going to be criticised without any doubt"

Garth Hewitt 'Humans Too'i got some news
may be a surprise
it's a basic truth
i've come to recognise
it may come as a shock
it's only known to a few
but palestinians are human too
if you share this secret
if you say it loud
you're going to be criticised
without any doubt

'cause they're hated and despised
and denied their rights
but strangely they're precious
in god's own eyes
palestinians are human too
oh they weep and they bleed
like me and like you
we can treat 'em like outcasts
as so many do
but palestinians are human too
if an israeli dies
we mourn as we should
if they're american or british
we know that they're good
but when it comes to arabs
and muslims too
we seem to turn a little racist
but i've got some news
palestinians are human too
for they weep and they bleed
like me and like you
we can treat 'em like outcasts
as so many do
but palestinians are human too
we can treat 'em like outcasts
as so many do
but palestinians are human too

will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance?


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 11:20

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If you take happy's advice and go to that site and start clicking around you may end up very sorry indeed. Don't.


Advis3r

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 11:24

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RRZ: Please tell us whose territory is it that Israel is purportedly occupying?


Advis3r

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 11:36

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The only people who treat the Palestinians as outcasts are the Lebanese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon
the Jordanians (http://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian), the Syrians, the Kuwaitis (http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20War%20Complete/Chapter%2010,%20Palesti...) etc etc.


J.Clifford

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 11:45

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RRZ Tut tut Joey your convenient and selective amnesia might be mistaken for fibbing - you know very well that the mysterious "another place" is facebook you only wrote it a day or two ago. Then again your aliyah attempts are in the public domain and there are people who are not suffering from selective amnesia who remember them. Maybe if you spent more time actually engaging in reasoned debate instead of spiteful irelevent digs you might keep your brown nose occupation this time.


J.Clifford

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 11:49

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What is your obsession with Harvey earning an honest living by driving a cab? Could it be that you are on the dole and you're jealous?


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 12:04

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" Janet ", hate to burst your bubble but I don't have a face book account and never go near the place. Tut tut.

And I did move from East Yorkshire to South Bucks but I didn't know this aliyah was on the public record.

I think you need to lie down a while.


Skovronek2

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 12:09

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Reading my Jewish Chronicle this morning, my first thought was that there had been a whole series of typos and that the Church of England had merged with Hamas. But no, it is the EAPPI that has provoked all the hysteria. Particularly amazing was the editorial headed "So now we know where we stand", which was little more than a childish tantrum.

Anyone who thinks that EAPPI is a racist enterprise can only be regarded as very seriously unbalanced and detached from reality.

The typical EAPPI representative is an upper middle aged Quaker biddy. She will spend time monitoring activity at check points and time accompanying young girls to school in an attempt to discourage harassment and attacks from settlers.

Why are people finding the reports of their experiences so scary? Because it contradicts all the Hasbara nonsense?

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