Davis et al - continued


By Jonathan Hoffman
February 18, 2011
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The following letter is in today's JC:

Tzipi Livni’s endorsement of the call to Mick Davis to join the conversation is a little ironic, considering at the last elections her Kadima party refused to form a government with the other two leading elected parties.

Your leader stated “this newspaper has grave reservations about the current Israeli government’s genuine commitment to seeking a two state solution”. Your partisanship sits most uncomfortably alongside your tradition of being the 'organ of British Jewry', since a logical conclusion of this is that your editorials should reflect the wide range of opinions about Israel within the community.

The 'Palestinian Papers' have shown that to blame the breakdown of the peace talks on the government's unwillingness to extend the settlement freeze was a red herring since Palestinian negotiators had already conceded that most of the settlements would remain. And a freeze was offered, but in exchange for recognition of Israel, but Mahmoud Abbas vetoed it.

Israelis have seen the hasty return of land for peace in Gaza reciprocated with a regular hail of rockets into the south of the country. In view of these circumstances, quite understandably, the electorate chose parties which would be not be so quick to trade land and would look at other ways of achieving peace with their neighbours. Slowly the living standard of Arab citizens in the West Bank is rising and many West Bank Arabs would prefer to live under Israeli rule, as recent surveys have shown. This is a very challenging job and the Israeli electorate deserve our support -- not our criticism.

Sincerely
Jonathan Hoffman and Michelle Huberman

It was edited, here was the version as submitted:

Tzipi Livni’s endorsement of the call to Mick Davis to join the conversation is a little ironic, considering at the last elections her Kadima party refused to form a government with the other two leading elected parties. It was hoped at the time that Tzipi could raise herself above petty politics to work for the good of the country. And why can’t Mick Davis work away from the glare of the press? We feel sure he has plenty of opportunities behind the scenes to air his views directly to the Israeli government, but why does he need to hand ammunition to our enemies when we have already seen the likes of Gerald Kaufman use his comments to support his opposition to alteration of the Universal Jurisdiction procedures?

Your leader stated “this newspaper has grave reservations about the current Israeli government’s genuine commitment to seeking a two state solution”. Your partisanship sits most uncomfortably alongside your tradition of being the 'organ of British Jewry', since a logical conclusion of this is that your editorials should reflect the wide range of opinions about Israel within the community --- and not express a party preference. The 'Palestinian Papers' have shown that to blame the breakdown of the peace talks on the government's unwillingness to extend the settlement freeze was a red herring since Palestinian negotiators had already conceded that most of the settlements would remain. And a freeze was offered, but in exchange for recognition of Israel - a sine qua non one might think, but Mahmoud Abbas vetoed it. We already have our leading politicians openly criticising the current Israeli government, does your newspaper really need to add to the chorus?

Israelis have seen the hasty return of land for peace in Gaza reciprocated with a regular hail of rockets into the south of the country. In view of these circumstances, quite understandably, the electorate chose parties which would be not be so quick to trade land and would look at other ways of achieving peace with their neighbours. Slowly, slowly the living standard of Arab citizens in the West Bank is rising and many West Bank Arabs would prefer to live under Israeli rule, as recent surveys have shown. This is a very challenging job and the Israeli electorate deserve our support -- not our criticism.

Sincerely
Jonathan Hoffman and Michelle Huberman

COMMENTS

jandrsimonson (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 08:40

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-6 points

Why thank you Yonithan, an absolute masterpiece of critical analysis. Though we ,of course , were expecting no less. Well worh the expectant sleepless night. Koff


Advis3r

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 08:56

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2 points

Zippi Livni is the consumate opportunist. Mike Davis of whom I know and care to know little is entitled to his own personal views but when he utters those views as the head of a leading Anglo-Jewish Organisation and those views are seized upon by the enemies of my country to further delegitimize it, thereby placing my loved ones and me as Israeli citizens in jeopardy then he should, if he has the moral courage to do so, either unconditionally retract those comments or resign. However seeing the moral turpitude which appears to reign supreme among British leaders generally, whether Jewish or not, (Jack Straw's outrageous comments about the Holocaust Memorial Day immediately come to mind) I do not suppose I will be reading about his retraction or resignation any time soon.


jandrsimonson (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 09:29

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-5 points

It is not for Israel to allocate British Jews a " function ". British Jews are British citizens, and as such enjoy all the rights and priveleges that go with that.

These incude the right to old any opinion they might arrive at on any subject under the sun.

As it happens Mick Davis's views are shared by an awful lot of British Jews, probably a significent majority of them.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 09:33

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-5 points

Mick Davis is in tune with most British Jews, Jonathan, and that's what really riles you. And as he says, we shouldn't be beholden to or care about what anti-Zionists or others say or do. We must not be silenced by them. We must speak the truth, however uncomfortable. A sign of true communal leadership is telling the truth, not saying amen to every Israeli policy.


Yoni1

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 11:45

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6 points

"Mick Davis is in tune with most British Jews"

Pure speculation.

"Mick Davis's views are shared by an awful lot of British Jews, probably a significent majority of them"

Pure speculation.

"These incude the right to old any opinion"

What was that you were saying earlier about Jose's spelling, dimbo?

"Why thank you Yonithan"

There is no such person as 'Yonithan', you mega-moron.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 11:46

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6 points

Loyalty to Israel is not "saying amen" to every Israeli policy, it is taking the time to explain the Israeli government's actions. Whether one agrees with them or not. Accusing those of us that have taken the time to explain Israel's actions of "saying amen" to them is a trick of Israel's enemies. So it is hardly surprising to see Joe Millis using the same argument.

It's funny (in a tragic way), that when Kadima were in power I still stood up for Israel's government and tried to explain their actions to my fellow countrymen. This was especially difficult during Operation Cast Lead, which in my view is the main cause for a lot of antagonism towards Israel around the world today (or at least the way in which the media covered it).

I also remember watching Netanyahu on television explaining the war to journalists. He told them about the rockets and the effects they were having on people in southern Israel. He made a good case for Kadima's actions. I can't help but wonder what Livni would have said to the world if it had been Likud in power during that war, not Kadima, and what the consequences would have been.

Livni and Davis are inviting you to join Israel's enemies in throwing the Israeli government under the bus, and they are doing so to further their own political ambitions. Sadly this is just another example of the left's complete and utter lack of principles. And just look at who is championing Mick Davis in this thread - that just about says it all.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 12:42

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-7 points

Sorry, Matt Pryor, but "explaining" Israel's actions is the same as agreeing with them. I don't know about you, but I cannot explain in a positive light something with which I disagree profoundly.
In fact, if someone shows themselves as being willing only to "explain" Israel's actions always in a positive light, that person helps Israel's biggest detractors because the simple response to that is always: "Well s/he would say that, wouldn't s/he?" It's a self-defeating stance.
As Mick Davis pointed out, the only way the enemies of Israel are being helped is by letting them dictate what those who have Israel's best interests at heart can or cannot say.


amber

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 12:42

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1 point

simonson now claims to speak for the majority of British Jews. This is when he is not speaking for "the world".

What arrogance. He would like nothing more than for British Jews to abandon Israel - because he hates Israel.

Transparent.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 12:47

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-7 points

It is hardly speculation to point out that Mick Davis and the JC for that matter reflect the views of the vast majority of British Jews. Polls, including the JPR one -- which has many faults, not least its methodology -- suggest that

[British Jews] are eager to see the Israeli government take steps to achieve it:

• Over three-quarters favour a “two state solution” as the “only way Israel will achieve peace with its neighbours in the Middle East”, and two-thirds favour trading land for peace. Furthermore, three-quarters oppose the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.
• Some go further still – just over half (52% as against 39%) would support Israeli government negotiations with Hamas.

Perhaps most significantly for a community that has long debated the acceptability of Jewish criticism of Israel in public, a slight majority (53% to 45%) believes that Jews living in Britain have the right to judge Israel, and nearly three-quarters believe that Jews should be free to speak their mind about Israel in the British media in at least some, if not all circumstances.

Luckily, we are pluralistic and tolerant community and even minority views, such as Jonathan and Michelle's, vcan be voiced without fear of retribution and revenge.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 12:54

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7 points

Millis what a moral coward you are.

"explaining" Israel's actions is the same as agreeing with them

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I do not have to agree with Israeli government's policies, I did not vote for them. Moreover whether I agree with them or not is entirely my business, not yours and not anyone else's. As a friend of Israel I have a moral obligation to explain the reasons for such policies to people who would otherwise think the worst in order to increase understanding.

Joining in with Israel's enemies to force the Israeli government into a position which is contrary to the wishes of the Israeli electorate, or to isolate Israel further in the international community, is a betrayal of Israel.


joemillis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 13:02

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-7 points

Pryor, it is emphatically not moral cowardice to speak the truth. Quite the opposite, it is cowardice to explain policies with which you disagree.
By explaining, presumably positively, Israel's policies on every occasion, it makes it very easy for Israel's enemies to turn around and say it's a Pavlovian response Those who explain Israel's policies whether they believe in them or not lack all credibility because of this. Thatis joining in with Israel's enemies' agenda.
Telling the truth isn't. Telling the truth takes moral courage.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 13:41

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6 points

Millis, congratulations on spelling my name correctly. And why are you posting under two different accounts?

When a friend of mine does something and their enemies accuse them of doing it for evil motives, I will stand by them and tell the truth and explain their actions. Even if it invites ridicule, hatred and derision from the jeering mob (which you are rushing to join).

Nobody is asking you to justify suicide bombings Millis, or attacks against Muslims, or anything of the sort. You are asked to explain Israel's negotiating position with the Palestinian Authority. It's really not that hard to explain, and though you may disagree with it it is quite a reasonable and pragmatic position.

By failing to do so it is not Netanyahu or Likud that you are betraying, but all Israelis. You are paving the way for Israel's enemies to force a settlement onto her without any guarantees of long-term peace - and there will not be any peace unless it is based on mutual respect and tolerance.

When families are dragged screaming from their homes in Jerusalem by the IDF as they were in Gush Katif, you will bear responsibility, because you did not stand up for them. And all because you want to avoid a bit of name calling.

Shame on you.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 13:49

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-7 points

Pryor, but people who are quite happy to explain away Israeli actions towards the Palestinians in all circumstances are not being true friends of Israel. They are playing into Israel's enemies' hands, because their response is seen as merely Pavlovian and non-thinking or discerning. A case of "They woluld say that, wouldn't they"? It places those kind of uncritical friends in the same boat as those on the other side who refuse to criticise the Palestinians or the fundamentalists. That's a true betrayal of Israel.
I care not a jot what the other side think or say. I will not have what I think or say dictated by mono-dimensionalists. They don't determine the truth. Thankfully.


Yvetta

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 13:49

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5 points

Bravo, Jonathan and Michelle!


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 13:49

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-5 points

Oh, and I was playing around with my sign in, but decided that having my name as it was looks far better.


amber

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 14:46

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2 points

Millis, on these very blogs, you have seen virulently ill-informed anti-Israel tirades - and you have not countered them. Instead, you spend your time attacking Israel.

In these circumstances, that is not moral courage. It is morally degenerate - and it is also incredibly stupid.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 14:51

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-4 points

Amber, as I have pointed out, I don't care what the anti-Israel mob says. I will not let their agenda dictate what I can or cannot say. There is no courage in being dictated to by naysayers of both sides.
I do not spend my time attacking Israel. Israel is much more than the policies of this or that government. It's a shame you do not get that.


Kahina

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 15:19

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5 points

I'm surprised that Mick Davis needs to go public about wanting his views to be heard by the Israeli government, he surely has enough contacts behind the scenes to let his opinions be known. Didn't the JC report that he was seen out with Ron Prosor recently? http://www.thejc.com/news/the-diary/42907/mick-and-ron-still-friends

And Tsipi Livni has just signed her death warrant over this. Israelis absolutely hate Brits interfering in their affairs, so the fact that whilst in opposition she has called for a role to an unelected British charity leader to discuss Israel's future is hardly going to endear her the the electorate. Her opponents are really going to have a field day with this story when it comes to election time.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 15:30

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-4 points

Kahina, you have a point but he spoke out for all the right reasons. If he did not make his views known publicly then he would have no credibility when coming to support Israel. The naysayers would just say he was being Pavlovian.
And it was clear from the JPR poll that the Jewish community wants leadership that feels free to speak their mind, irrespective of what the ideological purists on either side say.
And as for Tzipi Livni, what she said will have little or no effect because Israelis care very little about the diaspora. Her comments won't even register - and more's the pity for a country which is the national homeland of the Jewish people, the majority of whom don't live in Israel.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 15:51

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2 points

Millis, again your arguments are intellectually flawed.

If he did not make his views known publicly then he would have no credibility when coming to support Israel.

When HAS he spoken up for Israel? I don't recall him speaking up for Israel during cast lead, when IDF soldiers were being portrayed as murderers, or during the flotilla fiasco. I don't recall him speaking up for Jews in Gaza when the Israeli government was forcing them from their homes. I don't recall him speaking up for those same people who are still homeless. I don't recall him speaking up for people living in Sderot or Ashkelon who are still enduring regular rocket attacks from genocidal lunatics living a few miles away.

So again, when HAS he spoken up for Israel?

The naysayers would just say he was being Pavlovian.

But you don't think anyone should care about what the "naysayers" think or say. Scroll up, if you can't remember making this statement.

You arguments make no sense. All I see is excuses for your cowardice.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 15:54

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1 point

probably a significent majority of them.

And that moron criticised my spelling in my non-native language!


suzanna

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:01

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-3 points

'Slowly the living standard of Arab citizens in the West Bank is rising and many West Bank Arabs would prefer to live under Israeli rule . . . '

According to Margaret Curran MP who has just returned from the West Bank:

'The two big things that struck me the most were the economic disparity and levels of poverty in the West Bank as well as the geographical size and number of the illegal Israeli settlements, which are having a devastating impact on Palestinian life.

I was always aware of the desperate humanitarian situation and the levels of poverty in Gaza but I had assumed there was good economic progress in the West Bank and that it was thriving and moving ahead. But in reality it was far worse than I had anticipated. Clearly in Ramallah you can see the evidence of growth with new buildings going up and even the Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad spoke about 8% economic growth (in Ramallah). But when you look outside of Ramallah and at the map of the West Bank, the extent of poverty together with the illegal settlements and associated infrastructure, the Wall and checkpoints, is pretty shocking.


Kahina

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:14

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3 points

Exactly Joe. Israelis care very little about the Diaspora. They don't want Jews who haven't put their kids through army service or experienced being in a bomb shelter having a say on their security.

Joe you've served in the IDF, got a vote, so we have to respect your choice, even if we're not in agreement with you. Mick hasn't. It's not enough just to have your Mum living there. As a major JC advertiser, he should be using that advantage to publicise the achievements of the UJIA, not criticising the government on the peace negotiations.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:18

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2 points

Suzanna: PM Fayyad is wrong and Margaret Curran is right?
Surely she knows better!
By the way, there is no "desperate humanitarian situation" in Gaza. No famine, no sign even of underfeeding (in fact there is proof of the contrary, overfeeding). Life expectancy is greater than all Arab countries.
So either Curran is deliberately lying or she has been brainwashed on the way.
No one would pretend the situation of the 'Palestinians' is nice. But they chose war and terrorism, didn't they?


suzanna

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:21

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-1 points

Margaret Curran MP went on to say this:

The site of the Wall, which is built on and encroaching Palestinian land, gave me chills. It is having dire and pretty graphic human consequences for Palestinians.

Some of communities we visited near Bethlehem are literally imprisoned by it. One family home we visited was no more than a yard from the Wall. When the children looked out of the window - all that can be see is the Wall.

The permit system for Palestinians, which further restricts their movements, is crippling family life by keeping families apart. One woman I met was to married a Palestinian with an Jerusalem ID and she cannot go back to the West Bank and visit her family as she would not be allowed to return as she does not have Jerusalem ID. She is living with her husband and she cannot go anywhere. Some have not been able to visit families for years.Its only when you visit the region that you see the extent of the failure to allow Palestinians to live anything approaching an acceptable life. What we take for granted - simply living a normal life - many Palestinians do not have.

To claim that she is 'brainwashed'is pretty ridiculous.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:26

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-3 points

Pryor, the problem is that some people don't listen when they hear (there's a huge difference between listening and hearing) pro-Israel statements and Mick Davis has made very many of these. These people's ears prick up only when they hear what they perceive to be anti-Israel comments, that is those which do not conform to their view of what should be said.
I don't care what the naysayers say. But I do know what they say.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:26

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2 points

What we take for granted - simply living a normal life - many Palestinians do not have.

Well, that happens when they chose terrorists as their Fuhrers.

To claim that she is 'brainwashed'is pretty ridiculous.

Why? Because you say so? Where are the famine deaths in Gaza? Where are the underfeeding signs? Where is the shorter life expectancy. She has been brainwashed about this, clearly.


suzanna

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:28

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0 points

Ben Bradshaw MP who also recently returned from the West Bank wrote the following:

My first visit to the occupied Palestinian territories since I was Minister for the region 9 years ago left me shocked. No amount of reading about what’s been happening can make up for witnessing it first-hand. The remorseless growth of illegal Jewish settlements on Palestinian land. Their increasing encircling of East Jerusalem, making it harder to see how a functioning Palestinian capital could be based there. Israeli police and army defending the illegal settlements while doing little or nothing to protect Palestinians from settler violence.

The grotesque impact of the separation barrier – twice as high as the Berlin Wall and built for much of its length well inside Palestinian territory. The demolition of Palestinian homes and the revocation of residence permits amounting to the deliberate displacement of Palestinians from East Jerusalem. The cruel, inhuman and illegal treatment of Palestinian children by Israeli military courts.

This depressing picture was mitigated somewhat by the heroic work of Israeli, Palestinian and international charities and NGOs and by the remarkable resilience of ordinary people.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:31

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-4 points

Kahina, Israel is the national homeland of the Jewish people. Israelis like to say that, and it is part of Israeli government policy, but beyond declarations and statements it means very little to Israelis. And that's the problem because it is creating a disconnect between Israel and the diaspora.
Mick Davis has every right to say what he likes, when he likes and to whatever forum he likes, irrespective of what the naysayers think because they are irrelevant and must not be allowed to dictate what Jews can or cannot say. He is merely echoing the views of the majority in the
British Jewish community and in that he is showing true leadership.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:32

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-5 points

Suzanna, those whom you quote are hardly good examples. They will always say that. When encountering Israel or Israelis their response is as Pavlovian as those on the pro-Israel side who refuse to criticise Israeli policies even if they disagree with them.


Yoni1

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:34

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-1 points

Bradshaw is a disgusting piece of shit. His screeching in the HoC about the mythical 'Jenin massacre' was one of the worst moments in HoC history.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:44

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0 points

Suzanna: I'm sorry to point out some uncomfortable truths to you, and I realise that blaming Israel for all the problems in the world is habitual behaviour for you. However, I should not need to remind you that separatist Arabs have had autonomy from Israel since 1993. The lack of jobs and money is largely due to failures of their own leaders, i.e. the Palestinian Authority, to improve their lot, in spite of billions of dollars of investment from the wider world (much of which was embezzled by Arafat and his cronies). This is compounded by perpetual welfare handouts from UNRWA. Israel is not to blame for these problems any more than neighbouring Arab countries. This is a regional and global issue.

The "wall" - which is mostly a fence, by the way - was built as a reaction to terror attacks emanating from PA administered territories. It is there for a very good reason, not just for the sake of pissing people off. I would also remind you that Israelis also live with the barrier.

As for settlements, the state of Israel does not condone or authorize such activity in PA-controlled areas of Judea and Samaria, and has expressed a willingness to use the power of the state to put a halt to it. However this must be in exchange for genuine commitments to peace from the Palestinian Authority, who thus far have not even agreed to return to the negotiating table in spite of a ten month building freeze which was squandered.

Unfortunately the longer they leave it, the more entrenched this problem will become, which is all the more reason why the international community, and MPs such as Margaret Curran (who clearly care about the region a great deal) should be putting additional pressure on Mahmoud Abbas's government to return to negotiations immediately, as PM Netanyahu has repeatedly requested.


suzanna

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:51

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-1 points

Bob Marshall - Andrew QC wrote this after a visit to Gaza:

In the morning when we had the best breakfast that could be provided by the blockade (boiled eggs and cheese) we heard, suddenly, the gunfire of Israeli warships patrolling the three mile limit. The guns are unnecessary and are intended only to cow and intimidate a broken population. Some of our colleagues heard the sonic boom of Israeli F16 planes over-flying the Gaza Strip in order, again, to destabilise and traumatise a population, 50% of whom are under 16.


suzanna

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 16:51

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-2 points

Got to go. Bye


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:12

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-1 points

I notice that once again Joe Millis is silent when it comes to defending Israel against unjust criticism, much as he likes to lecture others about how it should be done.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:22

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0 points

50% of whom are under 16.

For this you cannot blame Israel, can you?


Yoni1

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:23

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0 points

"to destabilise and traumatise a population, 50% of whom are under 16"

They shouldn't breed like rabbits, then, should they?

If they are 'traumatised' - boo hoo - then they shouldn't vote for a Nazi government that repeatedly murders Israeli citizens. This is a classic case of "Mummy, mummy, he hit me back!", which is what antisemitic genocidal Arab countries have been whining since 1948.


Yoni1

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:24

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0 points

Millis is great on lecturing about this, that and t'other, mainly things he does himself. He is the very embodiment of hypocrisy.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:31

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-5 points

I note that Pryor has obviously not read my 15:32. They have eyes, but they cannot see, etc, etc...No, Pryor, I will decide how I respond, not you.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:33

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0 points

No Millis, that was not a defence, that was a thinly veiled attack on people that do defend, yet again.


Yoni1

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:35

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0 points

Millis just can't help spouting this easily-destroyed nonsense, can he?


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:36

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-5 points

Pryor, it wasn't thinly veiled at all. I was pointing out that the people she cited were basically "Palestinian can do no evil" and that they are just as blind and their response Pavlovian as the "Israel can do no wrong" people. Sorry, we can't all be black-and-white merchants and behave like we are taking instructions from on high.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:41

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-4 points

Tell you what, Pryor, why don't you, Jonathan, Yoni1 (and his alter-ego), Amber etc all defend Israel the way you deem fit since your way has been such a stellar success? And the rest of us will defend Israel our way.


Yoni1

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:46

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0 points

Neither Matt, nor Jose, nor Amber, nor me (I am nobody's 'alter ego', you pathetic asshole) has ever said or implied that 'Israel can do no wrong'. But the crowd you are enamoured of, criticise Israel non-stop, manically, for defending herself. This is a manifestation of stupidity in some people, and antisemitism in others. Since I assume you are not of the latter crowd, you must be of the former. And indeed, you constantly display breathtaking denseness. In addition to a really filthy sewer-like mind, of course.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:46

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1 point

And the rest of us will defend Israel our way.

Shooting at the victim is not the usual way to defend it.


mattpryor

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:54

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1 point

Being constantly undermined and stabbed in the back by you certainly hasn't helped, Millis.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 17:59

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-3 points

Which part of the following by Mick Davis do you not understand?

When we crudely brand lovers of Israel as traitors or fools if they articulate a concern, or when we deny people the right to contribute if they have criticisms of policy, we narrow Israel's support base.
Rather than shrinking the pool of people who will fight Israel's corner, we should be filling it by providing the capacity to advocate and defend - in tandem with the ability to question its direction.

You carry on your stellar ways of defending Israel, Amber, Matt, Yoni1 (and his alter-ego).
Neither you lot nor the anti-Israel mob will dictate how, when or to whom people who really hold Israel dear will respond.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 18:02

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0 points

when or to whom people who really hold Israel dear will respond.

Certainly not you, indeed, Milligramsam.


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 18:03

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-4 points

By the way, Matt, I'm not calling you a nazi so don't take offence or get self-righteous, but "stabbed in the back" comes from Dolchstoßlegende -- which according to Eberhard Kolb's "The Weimar Republic",

[When] Nazis came to power in 1933 they made the legend an integral part of their official history of the 1920s, portraying the Weimar Republic as the work of the "November criminals" who used the stab in the back to seize power while betraying the nation. The Nazi propaganda depicted Weimar as "a morass of corruption, degeneracy, national humiliation, ruthless persecution of the honest 'national opposition' - fourteen years of rule by Jews, Marxists and 'cultural Bolsheviks', who had at last been swept away by the National Socialist movement under Adolf Hitler and the victory of the 'national revolution' of 1933."


Joe Millis

Fri, 02/18/2011 - 18:05

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-5 points

Now, if you'll excuse me, Shabbat Shalom to you all.

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