Caroline Lucas MP: The Limits of Green ...


By Jonathan Hoffman
October 9, 2012
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SodaStream has opened a shop in Brighton. SodaStream enables people to make their own carbonated soft drinks at home. It is thus the epitome of an environmentally friendly – or ‘green’ - company since it obviates the need for drinks in plastic bottles to be bought from the shops. In fact the company – which is present in 43 countries around the world with over 6 million active users – estimates that it saves the planet from the waste of 1 billion plastic bottles every day as well as saving millions of barrels of oil needed to make them.

Brighton’s MP is Caroline Lucas of the Green Party. You’d have thought she would welcome SodaStream to Brighton with open arms. Not only is a multinational choosing to invest in her constituency but its product conforms completely to the environmental agenda of her Party.

You’d have thought she’d welcome it … but you’d be wrong. Sodastream has a plant in Area C of the Disputed Territories and Ms Lucas says she “supports the right of my constituents and others to … peacefully demonstrate against companies which operate out of illegal Israeli settlements.”

http://www.carolinelucas.com/blog.html/2012/10/08/local-protest-against-...

Ms Lucas should get her facts right. Under the Oslo Accords Area C is mostly under Israeli security and civil control pending a final settlement and Israeli companies are free to open plants there. The West Bank never belonged to any sovereign ruler after the British withdrew from Mandatory Palestine; before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire. Israel’s ‘borders’ are merely the ceasefire lines from its victory in 1948 against the Arab armies that tried unsuccessfully to exterminate it at birth. There is nothing ‘illegal’ about the settlements, a position supported by the US government for one. Indeed if settlements were ‘illegal’ then products manufactured there would not be allowed to be imported into the UK.

In fact Ms Lucas ties herself in knots in her statement because she says that “I don’t support calls for the Ecostream store to close”. But as she well knows, that is PRECISELY what the BDS mob wants – they even stand in the doorway of the shop to harangue potential customers.

If Ms Lucas is sincere about wanting the shop to stay open then she needs to come to the weekly BDS demonstrations and help to ensure that access to the shop is not blocked. And to talk to the police in Brighton to encourage them to move the BDS mob away from the shop (as the Met police did at Ahava).

If she doesn’t do both of these things then the electors of Brighton Pavilion – where she has a slim 1252 majority - can conclude that her antipathy to Israel trumps her enthusiasm for Green issues and can reasonably ask how ‘Green’ Ms Lucas REALLY is.

Addendum:

More on the Greens' official support for an Israel Boycott here:

http://daphneanson.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/british-zionist-leader-on-why-...

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/analysis/70782/beware-woman-who-...

http://greensengage.wordpress.com/about/

And see here how Caroline Lucas supported the self-confessed criminal BDS vandals who caused £180,000 of damage but were let off by a biased Judge (who was later censored by the Office for Judicial Complaints):

http://cifwatch.com/2010/07/03/uk-judge-takes-delegitimisation-of-israel...

COMMENTS

Mary in Brighton

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 09:49

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-2 points

Jonathan, I wouldn't worry your pretty little head about Caroline. She is immensely popular and come the election will certainly get re elected with a greatly increased majority.

If anything the attitude on the street is one of mild disappointment that her support for the demonstrations wasn't less equivocal. But people understand that as a politician she has an obligation to be effective and this often requires that she choose her words carefully

I am just amazed that this company chose to open its first uk shop in Brighton of all places. Snow balls in hell spring to mind.


Sharon Klaff

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 10:21

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-1 points

I suggest that you all get a book called The Forgotten Ally written by the journalist Peirre van Paassen in 1943.


AlistairClark

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 10:54

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-3 points

There's more to this than Mr Hoffman's one sided biased view.I hope they "Soda Stream" have the same success as Ahava did in Covent Gardens.We should be loud and proud and say no to Soda Stream and no to occupation.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 11:06

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-2 points

Alistair I don't think it's about Hoffies view being one sided. We live in a world brimming over with one sided views. It's more about the floundering woolliness of his pathetic Hasbara.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 11:21

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0 points

You also suggest that there is to be a from the river to the sea Israel Sharon but persistently refuse to tell us what is to be the fate and status of the non Jews born and raised in what is now the West Bank.We can only assume it won't be pretty.

In the light of this you won't, I hope, be offended if we prefer Amazon's suggestions.

Btw Hoffie I do hope you aren't planning to Ahava this poor shop.


Harvey

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 11:30

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2 points

Caroline Lucas is no different from any other politician .
A duplicitous statement which maintains her Green credentials while supporting 'freedom of speech ' for the boycott . All perfectly innocent assuming she is unaware of the objectives of the BDS which is the dismantlement of Israel and its replacement by a single Palestinian state .
She is however perfectly aware of this and thus the perfect all things to all people politician .
As for the boycott , I take it that Tonyle will not be extending an invitation to Greta Berlin in the near future .


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 11:44

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-1 points

Are you and Hoffie going down there to lend a hand Harv ? Like show them how it's done and all ?


happygoldfish

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 12:26

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3 points
(jonathan, it's a mystery to me how you manage to write on a topic that is essentially about water without once mentioning the word)

lucas's support for the campaign, in her 8/10/2012 blog, is based on a number of lies about israel, principally the complaint that sodastream is complicit in abuse of palestinian human rights "in light of reports that Israel routinely denies Palestinians access to clean drinking water."

the true figures can be seen in "The Issue of Water between Israel and the Palestinians" (2009), and "The Water Issue between Israel and the Palestinians" (2012)

far from israel depriving the palestinians of water, it is actually supplying them with water far in excess of the oslo agreement requirements (in 2008, 51.8 million cubic metres instead of the required 31.0)

(and the palestinians have refused to treat their waste water (so that they can re-use it for agriculture, like neighbouring arab countries), despite european offers to pay the entire capital cost … why is the green party not demonstrating about that? )


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 12:30

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0 points

Thanks goldfish - for more on the Water Lies see:

http://hurryupharry.org/2009/11/01/amnestys-well-of-truth-is-brackish/


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 12:45

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Thanks goldfish - for more on the Water Lies see:

The funniest thing about this blog spot is how Hoffie's links to citations are frequently to himself. This is at its most bizarre when he links in one blog to another of his blogs and when you click on it it turns out to be one the numerous of his blogs he has deleted in a panic, so we are not able to see Hoffie citing Hoffie after all.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:01

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As a matter of interest goldfish ( since I don't seem to be able to open your link ) where is this water ( that " Israel " is supplying to the " the Palestinians ") coming from ?

But the question remains. Hoffie are you going down to Brighton to help out ?

And my reading of it is that the demos are not about water but about an Israeli company based in illegally occupied territories doing business in Brighton.( correct me if I am wrong ) It seems that a goodly number of the good burghers of Brighton are agin it.


happygoldfish

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:33

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1 point

Jonathan Hoffman: Thanks goldfish - for more on the Water Lies see: http://hurryupharry.org/2009/11/01/amnestys-well-of-truth-is-brackish/ Brackish

very well researched article, jonathan!

Real Real Zionist: As a matter of interest goldfish ( since I don't seem to be able to open your link ) where is this water ( that " Israel " is supplying to the " the Palestinians ") coming from ?

(my apologies, i put a quote-mark in the wrong place … the link is here)

it comes from surface water and wells inside israel

Real Real Zionist: And my reading of it is that the demos are not about water …

agreed, but i was commenting on lucas, and her blog did include this familiar lie about abuse of human rights by denial of water

Harvey

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:35

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0 points

Ah yes the good Burghers of Brighton .
Their fame precedes them . Extra onion with mine thx


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:41

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-1 points

"it comes from surface water and wells inside israel"

I see

Which surface water ? Like for example.


Harvey

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:44

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Seriously , what constitutes a good number ?
Twenty thousand , ten , five thou ?
Or are we talking less than 50 dyed in the wool Marxists and assorted Rage at the Machine anarchists .
A mini bus load of Greenham Common wimmin shipped in from Eastbourne .
Reminds me of Marlon Brando in the film the Wild Ones . Hells Angels terrorising a small town . Policeman to Brando ' what are you protesting about '?
Brando ' watcha got ' . Except Brando was on a Harley rather than a Zimmer frame .


Mary in Brighton

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:51

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0 points

Harvey you silly billy you don't have onions on burgers that would be cannibalism. You have onions on burgers

I don't enjoy being the one to tell you this but that shop has no chance. If I am wrong I promise to dye my hair pink and go on the next Brighton naked bike ride.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 13:53

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0 points

" Seriously , what constitutes a good number ?"

Well let's say more than 4 ( not counting the EDL )


zaheerayin

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 14:05

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"I don't enjoy being the one to tell you this but that shop has no chance. If I am wrong I promise to dye my hair pink and go on the next Brighton naked bike ride."

Well, I'm going help out at Jonathan's counter-demos! Because that, I want to see!


Harvey

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 14:10

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-1 points

Remind me to take the train


Jon.

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 14:15

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1 point

Cabbie advocates public transport shock.


Mary in Brighton

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 14:43

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1 point

Lol


happygoldfish

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 14:54

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1 point
why is the green party (and caroline lucas) not demonstrating about the palestinians' refusal to treat their waste water (so that they can re-use it for agriculture, like neighbouring arab countries), despite international offers to pay the entire capital cost?

Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 15:21

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-1 points

Well maybe they don't know about that ( assuming it is true)

Further I would imagine that they might think that they can't address every international small detail. They are a UK party concerned with UK matters and macro international ones.

Looking around I don't see the green party demonstrating about anything.

Further Lucas was talking not for the green party but as the local MP that had been approached by constituents.

Do have any competing theories ?


Harvey

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 16:57

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0 points

Give it up RRZ
http://londonbds.org/2011/06/30/thames-boat-hails-gaza-flotilla/
Otherwise you'll have us thinking your Aunt Sally is for real .


happygoldfish

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:04

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1 point

Real Real ZIonist: Well maybe they don't know about that ( assuming it is true)
Further I would imagine that they might think that they can't address every international small detail.

the three serious parties are concerned about the middle east peace process, and don't support racist boycotts

the green party is a single-issue party which should be concerned about palestinian contamination of israeli water resources by untreated waste water, contrary to paragraph 23 of article 40 ("water and sewage") of annexe iii of oslo ii (the israeli-palestininan interim agreement on the west bank and the gaza strip)

and anyway, caroline lucas herself claims concern about the israeli-palestinian water issue … she's the one who lies to her constituents that israel is guilty of abuse of palestinian human rights "in light of reports that Israel routinely denies Palestinians access to clean drinking water." in her blog


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:23

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-2 points

You have changed the question. You started off complaining that the green party didn't demonstrate against " it" now the complaint has morphed into not being concerned about " it"

I don't have the spare capacity to argue about the green party.Only to say that I doubt they have the capacity to demonstrate ACTIVE concern for every parochial abuse of the environment ( even if it is true ).

The bare bones are that Lucas had her attention drawn to what was happening vis a vis soda stream and she gave her opinion. Viz while she wouldn't support the closing down of the store she supported peaceful demonstrations demanding the company relocated to legitimate territory. Seems coherent enough to me.

So we are left with your complaint that she LIED to her constituents in that Israel routinely denies Palestinians clean drinking water. Now you and I both know that isn't so. Israel does use water as a weapon in its management of the demographics of the west bank but that is not the same thing.

Now I know you have a private language definition of " lied ". But the general English speaking population don't shout " lied " unless they think the person deliberately said something they knew to be untrue.

I suggest you write to Caroline Lucas and ask her. I don't know if she lied or not.


Advis3r

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:26

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0 points

I see the some of the seven dwarfs are out in force again.


Real Real Zionist

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:30

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Harvey I am not Caroline Lucas and nor do I ordinarliy think about her from one day to the next. So your BDS obsession can't hurt me.


zaheerayin

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:30

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I am sure that every time Caroline lies, she apologises.


Mary in Brighton

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:41

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It's characteristic of obsessives when they can't deal with an enemy unless they give it a name.


Mary in Brighton

Wed, 10/10/2012 - 17:44

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0 points

Thank you and good night.


happygoldfish

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 10:51

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1 point

Real Real ZIonist: … the general English speaking population don't shout " lied " unless they think the person deliberately said something they knew to be untrue.

so you think the average person doesn't consider it a lie if you make something up against someone, and say "well, i don't know the thing i made up is untrue, so i'm not lying!"?

the liberal democrats certainly thought jenny tonge was lying when she complained that israel might be harvesting people's organs, on no grounds and with no defence other than "well i don't know it's untrue!"

Real Real ZIonist: Israel does use water as a weapon in its management of the demographics of the west bank but that is not the same thing.

how does israel "manage the demographics of the west bank"?

palestinian demographic numbers are increasing as fast or faster than the rest of the middle east

do you think israel is putting something in the water?

as to "using water as a weapon", that would be difficult when every aspect of water distribution is governed by the joint water committee

(on the other hand, i have to admit that that hasn't stopped the palestinians from using waste water as a weapon … contrary to oslo ii, they let it flow untreated into israel's water supply )


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 11:58

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0 points

so you think the average person doesn't consider it a lie if you make something up against someone, and say "well, i don't know the thing i made up is untrue, so i'm not lying!"

Well if you just make something up I guess we would call that lying. If you genuinely believed something to be the case and it isn't we would call it something else. Being misinformed or mistaken or whatever.

palestinian demographic numbers are increasing as fast or faster than the rest of the middle east

That might explain the increased management of those demographics.

do you think israel is putting something in the water?

You are being silly there but that is ok I have been known to be silly myself. This bit requires a longer answer than I have time for now but while you are waiting you maybe might go spend a few weeks in the Jordan valley.

(on the other hand, i have to admit that that hasn't stopped the palestinians from using waste water as a weapon … contrary to oslo ii, they let it flow untreated into israel's water supply )

Well there you go seems people are well capable of actions contrary to the wishes of the " joint water committee."


richmillett

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 15:47

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1 point

Lucas was on that Thames boat in July 2011 when the PSC mob were calling for the destruction of Israel and she was singing away with them all. Hope her constituents vote her out so they can have sensible representation in Parliament:

http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/green-chief-lucas-joins-g...


Harvey

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 16:18

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Hi Richard
Have to say I beat you to it further up JH s blog . No harm in reinforcing what we already know to be the case .


Mary in Brighton

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 17:22

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" .......hope her constituents vote her out "

Richard/Harvey. It doesn't hurt to dream.


Jonathan Hoffman

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 17:34

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1 point

The irony of a habitual malicious obsessive anonymous lying troll pronouncing on the definition of the word 'lie' will be lost on no-one (apart from the antisemites who infest this blog).


Real Real Zionist

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 17:46

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I resent the " anonymous" bit


joemillis1959

Thu, 10/11/2012 - 18:48

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Shame all this self-publicity will die down after the ZF elections on October 28


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 09:17

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Fascinating. The outcome of the elections don't really matter of course. However they turn out the ZF will no longer be able to say " we didn't know".


Harvey

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 09:55

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Joe
I'm pleased to see you thought better of your last comment and removed the phrase 'Jewish vanguard ' . It's a little redolent of an Atzmonism but even he would couch it in a slightly moderated manner ( he uses Judeocentric quite a lot )
You could have at least substituted Zionist for Jewish .
Why Jewish vanguard and why in a purgatorial manner .
I screen saved it for you . Let me know if you wish to remind yourself of it .


joemillis1959

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 10:28

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0 points

Be my guest, Harvey. Knock yourself out.
Just one thing, though, I called it the Jewish Task Force, not vanguard. And they have a Facebook page
and a website which has links in the UK.
Nice try, although a bit sloppy.
Anyway, off to work now, toodles. Onwards and upwards - happy and safe travels.


Harvey

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 11:17

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-1 points

Why did you edit the comment Joe ?


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 11:34

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1 point

Harv he has gone to work. Not EVERYONE blogs all day when they are supposed to be working.

Fill in the time by asking Hoffie why he has deleted something like 60 per cent of his blogs.


Harvey

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 11:53

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0 points

Anyway, off to work now, toodles. Onwards and upwards - happy and safe travels

I'm pleased for you Joe . Your being back in work I mean .

It wasn't too long ago that you were writing letters to JHs employers in an attempt to have him disciplined or indeed dismissed . What a truly nasty and vindictive person you must be and all because you don't agree with his politics . Why Joe ? Why seek to put a mans livelihood in jeopardy with all that entails for his family and cause so much anxiety .
Well as we both know and can at last say your venal attempts came to naught .
How sweetly ironic that having carried out such a contemptible action , it is you that should lose your short lived position with UJIA . Never a truer instance of to reap what you sew .

You need to lay to rest this bizarre obsession with JH .
You will be a much better person for it .
I wish you well in your new job - as long as it has nothing to do with Zionist causes .


joemillis1959

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 12:03

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Harvey, quick tea break to clarify - have you seen how JH is allowed only to post in his lunch hour or before and after he work's at the council tax payer's expense? That's all I wanted. Nothing more.
And as you asked, I tried to introduce the websites of the JTF, but couldn't re-edit. Still it's good to know you acknowledged your mistake.
Oh, and I wouldn't believe all I read on some splenetic's blog, if I were you. Terribly unreliable.
Toodles, and laters.


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 12:24

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Good grief Harv.........pots and kettles doesn't even scratch it.

Is it not time to quit ? It is obvious that yours and Hoffie's attempt to deprive someone of his job and livelihood came to nought. You can relax now.

I have been able to prove that thanks to your very good self. If you look back through your very own material you would be able to prove it yourself too.

Given that your nasty vicious vendetta is in the trash can you merely make yourself look a bit unhinged.


Harvey

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 12:46

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No Joe , unlike you , I haven't been monitoring his posting times but then again I haven't been checking his toilet breaks either . What next Joe , a spy camera in the toilet !
Like I said before you have a truly unhealthy obsession with the man and all because you don't share his politics .
As for wanting nothing more than to stop him blogging at 'Taxpayers expense ' as you believe the case .
Yeh right ! Your aim was to get him dismissed or at least severely disciplined .
Well it seems that his employers didn't buy it . He's still there and you are somewhere else .


Harvey

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 13:03

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RRZ

Any chance of translating that last comment into English


Real Real Zionist

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 13:10

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0 points

Nah just put a comma after the word can and it will be fine.

We are all somewhere else Harv.

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