The games people play (when they're getting desperate)

it is strange that the settlers should call their adversaries Nazis isn't it. Projecting just a little aren't they?

Simonq, neither the settlers nor the soldiers who unfortunately have to defend them are Nazis. The only Nazis are those who wear brown or black shirts, swastikas and believe in the superiority of their race.

Ha Ha Millis you obviously haven't read this.http://spectator.org/archives/2011/06/08/the-economics-of-settlement/print - read it and weep!
We're here to stay so get over it.
Unsuprising your comment is supported by an outed anti-Semite - bet you are proud of that.
The only thing that is toxic is the venom dripping off your fingers when you post.

Advis3r, so you want to bring about the demise of Israel. It's either the settlements or Israel as a democratic Jewish state. You can't have both.
Shame you are such an anti-Zionist.

Millis your remonstration with simonq was too late the genie is already out.
Contrary to your claims the impact of Israeli settlements has been almost exactly the opposite of what he and Arab propaganda claims. It is important to note that from 1967 to 1992, the population and economy of the West Bank grew substantially. The standard of living of the Palestinians, as well as the average per capita income increased. This was in part due to the Israeli "Marshall Plan," which expanded the infrastructure, modernized the supplies of water, electricity, and sewerage, and made 20th century medical care available. It was also due in part to the partial integration of the Palestinian working populace into the Israeli economy by the employment of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in a wide variety of Israeli business and agricultural endeavors. The growth of tourism throughout the West Bank was a further boost to the area's economy. It is only since 1993, when the occupation ended and 96% of Palestinians living in Israel came under the autonomous and independent control of the PA that the economy has been crippled and the lives of the Palestinians wrecked by the PA despotic and terrorist rule.

Rather than displacing Palestinians, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank stimulated substantial growth and improvement in their lives. The approximately 1,000,000 Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967 grew to a bit more than 3,000,000 in 1994. It has been often noted that when an Israeli settlement was erected, areas around it that were hitherto uninhabited became sites for Palestinian shops selling agricultural goods and cottage industry wares to the Israelis. Later, Palestinian houses followed the shops. Later still, the PLO succeeded in creating excellent anti-Israel photo-ops from this process. The PLO paid Palestinians to build homes abutting the settlement. The photo-op was the image of a settlement encroaching upon the Palestinian home. When the Israeli government tried to intervene, the photo-op was the Israeli government destroying a Palestinian home.

Arab propaganda argues that the settlements are an obstacle to peace. However:

1. From 1949-1967 there were no settlements in the West Bank or Gaza Strip. Nor was there peace. Arab belligerence was unrelated to West Bank and Gaza settlements. The settlements to which the Arabs objected at that time were Tel Aviv, Haifa, Hadera, Afula, etc.
2. In June, 1967, immediately after the Six Day War, and before there were any Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel proposed its dramatic peace initiative. This initiative was rejected by all Arab states, and by the PLO and el-Fatah. The obstacle to peace was the very existence of Israel, not settlements in the West Bank.
3. In 1977, as part of the accord with Egypt, Israeli settlements in Sinai were evacuated. In the context of a peace treaty, settlements are negotiable, can be, and were, dismantled.
4. In 1978, as part of the accord with Egypt, Israel froze settlements for three months, in order to encourage entry of Jordan and the PLO into the Egypt-Israel peace process. Both refused. The freezing of settlements did not stimulate peaceful interaction.
5. In 1994, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel, while settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were growing in size and number. The existence of the settlements in no way impaired the peace process with Jordan.
6. The accords discussed at Madrid, Wye, Oslo and Taba all include the acknowledgement that settlements will be dismantled in the context of a peace agreement. Those accords were discussed while settlements were expanding. They did not impede negotiation then.
7. Currently, some 200,000 Jews live in a total of 144 communities scattered through the West Bank and Gaza Strip. 80% of these could be brought within Israel's pre-67 borders with only very minor re-arranging of "Green Line" boundaries.
8. Part of former prime minister Ehud Barak's offer to Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat in 2000 was the exchange of land such that the Palestinians would be compensated for the small number of settlements that would not be dismantled.
Bottom line: It is the unwillingness of the Arabs to negotiate, not the presence of settlements, that stalls the peace process and makes compromise impossible.
By the way since the Arabs consider even Tel Aviv to be a settlement the comment by Millis that you can't have settlements and kfar saba is non-sensical.
Unfortunately far from seeing the light Millis has bought into the demography nonsense. He probably knows but for reasons known only to himself refuses to accept, that the majoirty of the Arabs will never agree to partition, territorial compromise or even land-swaps.
So, Millis either lies, is an Arab propagandist or is really not that intelligent - you pays your money and takes your choice.

This comment by Joe Millis has been moderated

Between the River and the Sea, there are more non-Jews controlled by Israel than Jews. The only ones blind to the deleterious affect of this are Lemur Livnat-Habala, Danny Ayaloon and other supporters of the toxic enterprise. Bibi gets it. Maybe one day, hopefully before it's too late for Israel, the Israeli population will stop acquiescing in the suicidal stupidity of supporting a few swivel-eyed messianists.

millis, your last point is nonsense. The number of Jews and Arabs between the Jordan river and the Med will not change whatever Israel's borders. Better that Israel is in a position of strength than one of weakness.

Who exactly is Israel supposed to give Judea and Samaria to?

Amber, that great anti-Zionist Binyamin Netanyahu disagrees with you.

The prime minister cut short the discussion and surprised those present with previously unspoken sentiments about the future Israeli presence in the West Bank.
"The debate over how many Jews and how many Palestinians will be between the Jordan and the sea is irrelevant," Netanyahu said. "It does not matter to me whether there are half a million more Palestinians or less because I have no wish to annex them into Israel. I want to separate from them so that they will not be Israeli citizens. I am interested that there be a solid Jewish majority inside the State of Israel. Inside its borders, as these will be defined," Netanyahu explained.

But than again you probably think he's some kind of anti-semitic anti-zionist.

No millis, that's just you.

millis, as you ignored the substantive point, I'll ask again:

who is Israel supposed to give Judea and Samaria to?

I agree with Netanyahu - doesn't alter the fact that there are still the same number of Jews and Arabs in the area despite borders, nor does it change the fact that Israel has no peace partner.

simoneq, go away you antisemitic moron.

Millis he could equally have been speaking heaven forefend about the "T" word!

Israel, for its own sake, should hand over control of the West Bank to the Palestinians. If you do not understand what Netanyahu means by saying "It does not matter to me whether there are half a million more Palestinians or less because I have no wish to annex them into Israel. I want to separate from them so that they will not be Israeli citizens. I am interested that there be a solid Jewish majority inside the State of Israel. Inside its borders, as these will be defined,", then very little can help you.
He wants a Palestinian state alongside Israel to protect Israel's future. You, apparently and clearly, are not interested in Israel's future.

In your dreams, Advis3r. In your dreams.

Moderator, why are the one-stater anti-Zionists, like Advis3r and Amber, allowed to post on a pro-Israel website? I didn't think doing Hamas's work for it would be allowed here.

"This is, of course, a fallacious nonsense, since of any of the toxic settlements continue to exist, Israel won't."

That's what they told us before they uprooted the Jewish communities in Gaza. Result thousands of rockets on Southern Israeli cities.

Wasn't it Einstein who stated that performing the same tasks and expecting different results is the definition of insanity?

That's it Millis usual extreme left wing tactic try to close down debate when it's not going your way - absolutely pathetic as are you.

millis, brilliant! What an intellect you are. Israel should hand it to "the Palestininas".

Whic ones millis? Fatah, led by the Holocaust denying Abbas who is currenhtly refusing to negotiate and who has just been taken over by Hamas? Or Hamas itself, which advocates the extermination of the Jews, and would launch more terror and rocket attacks from land vacated by Israel, as we saw in Gaza?

What a brain youu have.

millis, glad to note you are a supporter of Netanyahu.

Moderator, why are self-loathing Jews like millis alowed to post here?

So, Advis3r, why did Israel build so many settlements if it knew that they contribute nothing to Israel. That's what Einstein really meant about repeating the same thing. And the rockets were fired from Gaza even before the Israelis unilaterally withdrew to bury the peace process (put it in formaldehyde, as Weisglass said). So much for settlements preventing rockets. How about treating the Palestinians as equals? There's something the Israelis haven't tried yet. Who knows, it might work.

And the Palestinians treat Jews as equals?

What a moron.

millis, you forgot to answer - Fatah or Hamas? Which is a real peace partner?And are they any different now Hamas has swallowed Fatah? This is who you trust for Israel's future?

Millis - patently, you have no answer when it comes to living in reality.