Jerusalem a united city?

Sure millis, it was really united when the Arabs had it between 1948-67, when no Jew was allowed to enetr their holy sites, having been ethnically cleansed from Judaism's holy city by the Arab Legion and their Palestinian helpers.

Obviously Millis has not been to Abu Tor or Ein Kerem or even Pisgat Ze'ev. Akiva Eldar has been fisked more than once for getting it wrong like here for example
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=5&x_outlet=55&x_article=1821

Trtying to see every case as something sinister seems to be his forte.

In any event the City is far more open than when the Jordanians illegally occupied it. If the Arabs behave themselves they can also enjoy unrestricted access more than was accorded to the Jews who were at time prevented from even praying at the Western Wall during the British Mandate and arrested for blowing the shofar there.

If the Arabs behave themselves, "Advis3r"? What about misbehaving Jews? So you found two neighbourhoods where Jews and Arabs live side by side (much to your chagrin, I suspect). How about Ramat Shlomo? Talpiot? Bakaa? Hamoshava? Ramot?
Pisgar Zeev is in Jerusalem like Brighton is in London.

Obviously, Millis has no idea where Pisgat Zeev is. What a surprise.

No Millis like Ilford is in London Pisgat Ze'ev (Hebrew: פסגת זאב‎, lit. Ze'ev's Peak), is a residential neighbourhood with a population of 50000 located in northeastern Jerusalem.

As to misbehaving - Jews don't throw rocks down on Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall or stab to death yeshiva Bocherim on their way to pray at the Western Wall.

Err.."Advis3er", have you seen the way women member of the Reform movement are treated at the Western Wall…by fellow Jews? Or how about the attempted murder of homosexuals by fellow Jews during the Pride March?

I'll repeat it for your edification, Pisgar Zeev is as much a part of Jerusalem as Brighton is of London and no amount of verbal pyrotechnics will change that fact. Just because Jerusalem's boundaries have been expanded for political purposes, it doesn't mean that they are accepted by anyone other than the far right.
Maybe you should read this
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4076284,00.html

miligram, you are a snivelling fool.

That's interesting Millis we are talking about access to Holy sites and you switch the discussion to a gay pride march slightly off topic? In any event there was only one deranged individual involved and not "Jews" as you falesly claim - but why let the truth get in the way of a good old fashioned anti-Orthodox rant?
As to the Western Wall there are rules and regulations in place regarding praying at the Wall. Certain groups believe they have the "right" to flout those rules. I am quite sure those same people if invited to visit a mosque or other non-Jewish place of worship would behave with proper decorum - why then do they consider it right and proper to defy rules which protect the sanctity of the Jewish holy sites where traditionally let alone halachically there is separation of the sexes?

No, we were talking about misbehaviour among Jews.
The Western Wall is holy to all Jews. Therefore, Jews of all stripes should be allowed to worship there according to their customs, not just according to the customs of one, minority, sect. Otherwise, Israel's claim to maintain freedom of religion in Jerusalem just sounds hollow.

Pisgat Ze'ev is as much part of Jerusalem as Ilford is a part of London get over it Millis. You of course have the right to use language any way you want and you have proved your facility to distort and exaggerate calling legal Jewish communities where Jews who do not share your ideology live toxic which is but one step away from saying that they and the peole who live on them need to be eradicated - why should the Arabs be less pragmatic than you about what they want to do to the Jews. Why should the Jews living in Shiloh, Ofra, Ariel Maale Adumim etc., who are living in the Biblical heartland of Israel which has never been an Arab State live in the Galil or the Negev as you suggest? Why don't you and the other 300,000 or so Jews living in the UK go and live there?

Sorry Millis made up religions are not allowed to pray at the Western Wall.

I would have thought that to preserve Israel, "Advis3r", the 300,000 or so Israelis whose dreams of a Greater Land of Israel made them easy prey to cheap mortgages and cheap labour should go and live in the Negev and Galil. Heartland, schmeartland, the biblical borders were a moveable feast, too. Pragmatism dictates that if Israel wants to continue as a Jewish and democratic state, as envisioned by the founding fathers of Zionism, it has to relinquish control of the occupied territories, however "painful" that might be.

So now Reform Judaism is a made up religion. You sure know how to alienate the majority of world Jews. Are you sure you want Israel as a homeland of the Jewish people or a homeland of just those Jews who agree with you halachically?

Please provide the source for Liberal/Reform Judaism in the Bible? Both these religions were man made and in fact are based on premises which in conflict with the Principles of faith enunciated by Maimonides that the Torah was given to Moses on Sinai and is not to be changed. If people want to follow these religions they are free to do so however they cannot claim to be following authentic Judaism because they have decided to ignore many of its precepts. That does not stop them where halachically within that definition being Jews since we are all one Nation and beyond all of the differences that stand between us, we are all the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We are all one family, with one land, and one destiny.

All religions are "man-made", "Advis3r". And all religions are open to many interpretations, that's the beauty of it all. If Maimondes lived now, I am not entirely sure the Orthodox would accept him or that the Progressives wouldn't.

And if you are dismissing Progressive Judaism as made up, how does that square with your claim that we are all one nation? You've just dismissed two-thirds of the world's Jews.

Millis you make one fundamental mistake. The modern State of Irael was founded as the homeland of the Jews and a refuge which unfortunately was not available to the Jews of Europe during the War years for those jews seeking it. It just so happens that the people who set up the State did so on democratic lines it could just as well have communist as the USSR at the time hoped it would be. The over-arching principle though is that it is to provide a national homeland for the Jews needless to say because wherever else we have been sooner or later the local citizenry have found an excuse to get rid of us - an occupation with which a number of states in the World are still intent on following. Since our over-arching principle is to preserve the Jewishness of the State anyone who wishes to live here has to accept that that will guide our future conduct Israel is not the UK nor is it the USA and nor do we need it to be this is a Nation State and for historical reasons has to remain so. If people do not wish to accept the principle that Israel is the Jewish homeland and will be preserved as such they are not forced to live here.

Millis you are confusing religion with nationhood. Some halachically defined Jews follow scientology it does not make them any less Jews.

Jewishness of the state, however ill defined - or actually not defined at all for fear of upsetting the Orthodox - does not mean that the state has to follow Orthodoxy. One of the main failures of the founding fathers was that they did not stand up to the Orthodox. That mistake can be changed, especially if Israel wants to retain the support of the vast majority of Jews, who aren't Orthodox.

"All religions are "man-made", "Advis3r"." You have just made my point as long as halachically you are Jew writing a sentence like that does not stop you being one. I regret that you lack faith and belief but what I said still goes we are all one family, with one land, and one destiny.

I am not confusing religion with nationhood, since it was you who said that Progressive Judaism was man-made. The fact that Progressive Jews' customs are not to the rabbinut's liking, does not mean that they their customs are any less Jewish than their own.

miligram, Israel already has the support of the vast majority of Jews. It is idiots like you, who are a very loud and shouty minority, who are the problem.

millis, do you think the Jewish people would have survived as an identifiable people were it not for the Orthodox through the ages?

I do not lack faith or belief. I probably don't share the same faith or beliefs as you. We are only one family, people etc if all streams of Judaism are valid. Otherwise, it's Splitsville, where those who aren't part of the process are alienated and ultimately turned apathetic by the actions of the minority who want to shun them. Haven't the Jews suffered enough? :-}

"Advis3r", why don't you start a thread on defining the Jewishness of the state. That could make for an interesting debate.

"I'll repeat it for your edification, Pisgar Zeev is as much a part of Jerusalem as Brighton is of London and no amount of verbal pyrotechnics will change that fact"

Still drivel, however many times you spout it. I am a moderate social democrat, and like most sane people I know that PG is in Jerusalem. Only bile-spewing haters like Microgram deny it.

Advis3r, how would you define the Jewishness of Israel?

From the words of HaRav Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal zt"l written during the Holocaust in which he perished:
"I proved above that the shining of Israel's salvation depends on all of (the Nation of) Israel joining in the sacred task of building and settling the land. That is we will not achieve our desired goal without the participation of both the G-d fearing Jews and the masses whoever they may be... "
Although as an Orthodox Jew I would prefer that the country was run on Halachic lines and that Jewish law should guide our lawmakers and judges the fact is that contrary to what you say the Orthodox made the decision in 1948 not to upset the status quo which had arisen by virtue of the fact that non-Orthodox and non-affiliated Jews had led the rebuilding of the Jewish Homeland and so had the final say in what type of State would be formed. We live with that today when many of the children now growing up here attending non-religious schools have no idea of our historical connection to this land or even know about any of their heroic forefathers as a direct consequence of anti-religious Ministers of Education who curtailed the teaching of the Tnach in schools. Belatedly ministers are now beginning to realise what a mistake that was.

Come now, "Advis3r", no need for that. I can't remember which rabbi Ben-Gurion negotiated with (he called the secular empty vessels), but he did coerce the Prime Minister into allowing the charedim far too much say in life-cycle events. His threat was that the Orthodox abroad wouldn't recognise Israel. Ben-Gurion wanted as much support as he could for the state and capitulated.
The biggest mistake, however, was separating the state religious education system away from the state secular system. I have never understood why secular Israelis and their Orthodox peers do not mingle until the age of 18, which is too late.
Perhaps if that error was resolved (and apart from anything else it would save billions in tax-payer money), Israelis could devise a way of defining the Jewishness of the state.
And then we get to the charedim. I'm not sure why the state funds their education. Perhaps Israel should have a private school system; if parents want something different for little Menachem Mendel or Tehila Menucha, let them pay for it.
So what should be the nature of the Jewish state in your view?