Israel's choice

At the webelieveininisrael conference later this month .... the plea will go out: Netanyahu, choose the Jewish and democratic path, don't let Israel slide towards apartheid

You seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, T-Sam

The conference will not produce policy statements. It is purely educational, to improve advocacy. Somewhat pointless for denigrators in other words. No names no pack drill.

As for the NIF, this says it all:

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2011/04/machsom_watch_radicals_and_fog.h...

Machsom Watch is funded by NIF along with other organisations that work for the elimination of the Jewish state.

Beats me how NIF can at the same time support a conference which improves skills in advocating for the Jewish state....

Pointless for denigrators? Guess you won't be attending then, Jonathan. Or will you be there at a counter-demo outside, against the idea of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state?

Seems Millis you have a different view of democracy than most Israelis have. I suggest instead of projecting you read this to see why democracy when applied to Israel has to be taken in context to where Israel is located and the conditions under which its citizens have to carry on their normal lives. Remember Habeas Corpus was suspended in the UK in WW2 as were certain press freedoms.

www.tfd.org.tw/docs/dj0102/001-024.pdf

It will take you more than ten minutes.

In democracies, all citizens have equal rights, irrespective of race, religion, creed or gender. Israel's position or situation is irrelevant despite what may or may not be written in the much-vaunted Taiwan Journal of Democracy. Either Israel is a democracy or it is not. Would you prefer it wasn't?
I suggest you get hold of a copy of Israel's declaration of Independence (it's been translated into many languages), sit down, have a cup of tea, read it, and inwardly digest the following

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Yes Millis and since 1948 Israel has been in a constant state of war but despite that all citizens have equal rights, irrespective of race, religion, creed or gender before the law as you would know if you lived here - but I forget you live in the Human Rights Utopia known as the United Kingdom. You obviously have not read the article I directed to you so we have to treat you as ill-informed.

Millis
Ad nauseum
The Palestinians had the opportunity to declare their west bank nation state any time between 48 and 67
They rejected that possibility and instead launched two existential wars to recover what Hamas term all the lands between the river and the sea
Tell me if Im wrong but where in the Hamas charter has that changed
Hamas make it absolutely clear that they do not recognize and nor will they ever recognize israel and will work towards it's eventual eradication as a Jewish state
A return to 67 borders will see hamas within a few clicks of tel aviv and right next to ben gurion
A few demands of my own
Recognize israel as the Jewish state for the Jewish people on
Declare a cessation of hostilities on an irrevocable agreement
Decommission your arms dismantle all para military
Renounce right of return
Jerusalem as Capital of israel
Allow NATO peace keepers Palestinian side to oversee above for 10 years minimum
Return shalit before any of the above takes place

Harvey, "Advis3r", and the rest of the one-staters. It's pretty clear that you have not taken in what David Ben-Gurion said about saying and doing. Israel has squandered billions on the occupation, instead of developing the infrastructure in the periphery. Instead of high-speed rail and road links to an industrialised Negev, Galil and Eilat and an airport in the Arava, billions have been wasted on road and settlements in the occupied territories.
Instead of developing a world-class educational system, Israel has slumped in the world rankings, creating a generation of ignoramuses, because there's no money for Israel most vital -- and perhaps sole -- asset, its future generations.
Instead of creating work places for the unemployment hit Negev and Galil, it has poured money down the drain of a toxic settlement enterprise that will have to be dismantled anyway.
If you want Israel to continue to exist, let alone as a Jewish and democratic state, it has to hand over, in its entirety, the West Bank and almost all of East Jerusalem to Palestinian control.
They say that mecharvayich and meharsayich mimchah yavo'oo (Your destroyers will come from within you). Those destroyers are the Israeli far right and their ventriloquist dummies abroad who, unwittingly perhaps, give help and succour to Hamas.
Are you sure you want Israel to continue to exist?

More navel gazing from millis.

Millis, Israel's choice is this - to survive or to die. Your policy would lead Israel to committing suicide.

I would add, Harvey, "Adviser" - and its aliases - that Hamas is a paper tiger. Less than that, actually. Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, but the toxic settlement enterprise and the country's slide towards apartheid. It's not there yet, but if it holds on to the occupied territories, it will be. The destroyers come from within, and they are those who help Israel believe it can continue to exist with the occupied territories. Israel is far too important to be left in their hands.

I see Israel has failed to develop a world class educational system I suggest you look at this
http://ideas.repec.org/top/top.country.all.html
and take accont of the fact that due to its friendly neighbours Israel has to spend a disproportionate amount when compared to the countries above its 21st ranking on defence.
I am not going to engage you on your histrionics on the "toxic settlements". The Jewish Communities in Judea and Samaria did not exist before 1967 and we still did not have peace. They are simply a smoke screen put up by Israel bashers and useful idiots to hide Arab intransigence which is still the only obstacle to peace. Hamas continue to voice that intransigence - I respect them for their honesty at least in confirming that the only result they want is the disappearance of Israel however that is achieved - Abbas wants that too just look at photos of him in his office with a map of "Palestine" from the River to the Sea - but of course he is a "moderate". Israel is expected to and does extend full rights before the lwa to the Arabs citizens of its country and yet not only would Jews not be extended such rights but Abbas wants every one of the 500,000 Jews living in Judea and Samaria (should that become the 22nd Arab State in the Middle East) ethnically cleansed.
As you say mecharvayich and meharsayich mimchah yavo'oo (Your destroyers will come from within you). Those destroyers are not us who live here but the dummies like you who live abroad and pontificate about how we should put ourselves and our dear ones in harm's way so that you can comfortably attend your dinner parties without the embarrassment of having to explain why Israel is compelled to fight for its very survival - because if we listened to you and the likes of you we sure wouldn't survive!

Millis - I am and have always been one person. You make outrageous statements and rarely back them up with evidence. Unless you can prove I have one or more alter egos I suggest you keep your psychotic fixations to yourself. Your innuendos are now becoming tiresome - I have no problem debating your position on Israel but if you continue to make it personal I will consider that to be an improper use of the facilities afforded by the JC nder the terms it is offered and will lodge a formal complaint with the moderator. It's your choice.

The chief Rabbi is not so sanguine about Hamas.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=219316

"advis3r", me thinks you protest too much. Complain as much as you like. Just do it with various aliases and from different proxies.
The Jewish commonwealth has a history of falling prey to extremists. Sikerikii, etc. The toxic settlement enterprise is just a 20th-21st century manifestation of those destroyers.

Millis
Don't patronize us
The vast majority of Israelis and their supporters are realistic and would be willing to trade a few outlying settlements and some biblical tourists sites if it meant an absolute and irrevocable peace agreement with the Palestinians .
However , unlike you we are realists and pragmatists in that we understand only too well that such a position can never be achieved
We listen to the words of Hamas and their masters Iran and unlike you we take those words at face value. Hamas make quite clear that they will never accept the permanence of an imposed settlement . That at any given time they may renounce such settlement as and when it may suit them according to Islamic code which provides for such practice when entering into agreements with non Muslims
Recent events in the Arab world prove the fragility of Arab society and government such as may exist . The next few months may well see a deterioration in relations between israel and Egypt as the mb take power and embrace Hamas
Had you taken the time to properly read my previous post you will see I am not averse to a Palestinian state based on 67 borders . However for that to happen conditions which relate to israels security and well being must first be implemented
As long as that is not the case then the status quo must prevail

There you have millis "logic" - Hamas aren't bad for the Jews, the settlers are.

Millis, besides being an enormous egomaniac, you are a complete imbecile.

millis, make sure you're loggen in at 5.55pm to get your last stupid word in.

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