Green Party & Anti-semitism?


By Isca Stieglitz
July 7, 2010
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This is more of a call for advice and information. I am an active member of the Green Party for England & Wales. I was simply doing some research and came across a very heartening group called 'Greens Engage'; they are monitoring anti-semitism within the party, e.g. the contents of motions regarding boycotts of Israel. However, I am also very saddened by the knee-jerk reactionism and hyperbole around Israel. React-first-ask-questions-later, seems to be the order of the day on a lot of world conflicts in general. I felt the hair go up on my neck when I saw Green members carrying "We're all Hamas Now" placards.

I understand that all parties in contentious situations can sink to bilious outpourings, but I endeavour to educate myself on many contentious issues before forming opinions and this issue is no different. The evidence so far is not looking too 'good' for the Green Party.

Any comments gratefully received, avoiding 'bilious outpourings' of course ;o)

UPDATE April 2011:
Some people have read this post and by reading the comments have found 'Greens Engage'. For ease, here are direct links to the site and an article I wrote connected to this subject:

http://greensengage.wordpress.com

http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/to-completely-consume-by-fi...

COMMENTS

Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 12:52

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-1 points

And, what about your leader? Caroline Lucas, her recent pronouncements over the criminal damage case in Brighton should leave you very concerned about your "Green" Party.
I think you need to substitute the word "Green" for one of the following, Loony-Left, Extremist, Terrorist-Supporting, Nutty.
My advice, leave the "Green" Party, they have veered far from their agenda and have become an extremist,left-wing fringe grouping.
Join the Conservative Party.


mattpryor

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 13:03

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-1 points

Unfortunately as a fringe party the Greens are always going to attract reactionaries, who often tend to dominate the debate. Angry people tend to get their way because people avoid confrontation.

This latest business is a stain on the Greens that will not go away for me. I have lost all respect for them.

As Jon says, join the Tory party - I'm sure there are environmental lobby groups within it.


Yvetta

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 13:03

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0 points

I agree with Jon. Caroline Lucas has a history of pro-Palestinian, Israel-demonising activity. The Greens are a rag, tag and bobtail brigade - ratbags, as Aussies would say. They are anti-western, anti-Israel, and to be avoided like the proverbial plague.


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 13:28

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-1 points

Thanks for the support Yvetta.
Now Caroline Lucas has taken over from "gorgeous" George Galloway as the "useful idiot" in the House Of Commons.


Isca Stieglitz

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 13:36

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1 point

Thanks. It's as I was suspecting, unfortunately.

The Hove judgement did make me baulk; it certainly did not sit with the legal training I had and I didn't like Caroline's comments one bit. Scary is an understatement; it pretty much gave carte blanche to do what one wants and use spurious defence to get away with it.

I will persevere with the 'Greens Engage' for awhile, they do seem to have teeth and numbers and I'm not one to give in without a 'fight'. There does, however, seem to be a climate of fear/ intimidation to speak out with more balanced and rational voices.

I'm not sure I can throw in the towel yet, I'd be leaving too many people behind. I'll see how it goes and keep you posted.


Ben Abuyah

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 14:30

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Like all mainstream parties, the Green Party contains members with a wide variety of opinions. Caroline Lucas does have a reputation for being critical of Israel - but, contrary to what the "Israel right or wrong" brigade might suggest, I don't believe there's any reason to think that she's antisemitic.

It also seems perverse the way that some people choose which party they're going to vote for based solely on their attitude towards Israel.


mattpryor

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 14:50

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-1 points

Peoples' attitude towards Israel tells us a great deal about their moral character Ben, and their ability to think rationally and objectively and to listen carefully to all sides of an argument before jumping to conclusions.

Politics should be about healing wounds and building bridges, not exacerbating already tense situations in order to win votes (I also cringe whenever I hear politicians indulging in banker bashing).

Caroline Lucas is not a good politician, she's an insensitive reactionary and she should not hold public office.


Isca Stieglitz

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 14:51

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Hence my not giving up too easily. I joined the Green Party for its mostly innovative and compassionate Manifesto for a Sustainable Society (MfSS) and have been a local Councillor for the party. Of course I don't agree with everything, but no party could offer me 100% agreement.

The MfSS puts 'people & environment' at the heart of all decision making. I'm just trying to be open minded to the fact that this, as in all organisations, can go off kilter sometimes. We all have to be mindful of unintended consequences I feel.

I was also struck by the fact that the Green policies e.g. on economics, are backed up and informed by many accepted world 'experts' and that the members didn't sit around hand weaving their own principles. :o)

I've got to be as sure and as informed as possible before making any decisions. The Green Party's attitude towards Israel forms just a part of that.


Mira

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 17:02

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Hi Isca, I write most of the stuff on Greens Engage and there are a good many more of us who don't blog, but coordinate together to monitor and work against antisemitism as a current which needs to be marginalised within the Green Party.

All of us in Greens Engage are committed to the Green Party, for the same reasons as you, Isca. Some of us have, or have been candidates for, council and parliamentary posts. And some of us would like to be more active, but find our energies diverted into worrying about antisemitism.

Most of what we observe and do in response doesn't get blogged because it takes the form of letters, conversations and internal discussions. We want to change things using the party's own democratic structures and we have made some headway, including a conference resolution against antisemitism in 2008. And what is particularly heartening is that in the Green Party Jews are not the only ones opposing antisemitism.

What the Green Party needs now is more grass roots activity against antisemitism borne out of a commitment to the party, as well as a commitment to fight anti-Jewish language and behaviour.

Please do contact Greens Engage - http://greensengage.wordpress.com/contact-us/ - with some contact details of your own, Isca, and I'll be in touch.

Mira

http://greensengage.wordpress.com
http://engageonline.org.uk


Mira

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 17:16

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Damn it - can't even get my own web address right - the Greens Engage one (http://greensengage.wordpress.com) is correct but the original - 'black' - Engage (more general campaign against contemporary antisemitism) one is http://www.engageonline.org.uk


prosperityforri.org

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 19:43

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As a long time Green (first candidate for state representative as a Green in the US in 1986), and as a jew, the ecological perspective on Israel is that I grew up rooting for israel, but they completely lost me when they started cutting down olive groves and orchards in Palestine as a way to remove palestinians from their land. Cutting trees like that in the middle east is criminal.

What continues to keep me pushing hard to transform israeli policy is the simple matter of one person, one vote. If Israel wants to control the west bank and gaza, then the people who live there deserve a vote in Israeli elections. If everyone under Israeli control had a vote, the policy would change very quickly.

So the issue is not anti semitism in the Greens, it is ecology and democracy versus oppression.


Isca Stieglitz

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 21:18

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1 point

Thanks for every one of your comments, I do take them on board and cogitate hard, even over the areas I don't agree with. :o)

Re: Caroline Lucas - I do have to say that she has done excellent work in bringing the Green Party into more mainstream acceptability and I have much admired her. This is why it is more troubling for me when I disagree.

@Mira - I joined the group today. Thanks for the invite.


Yvetta

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 21:58

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0 points

Tricky Dicky Nixon made "The Environment" a political issue to deflect attention from his other policies - in so doing he created a leviathan of a cause.
Most parties nowadays are pushing for ecological awareness - far better to choose one of the mainstream centre parties than the ratbaggy Greens with their anti-Israel leader who has praised to the skies the decision of a jury to find the EDO seven innocent of crimes on the grounds that they were preventing war crimes by Israel.
In so doing Ms Lucas has endorsed a principle which could see further violence committed with impunity against Israeli targets in the UK.


amber

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 23:07

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Isca, I don't think it is consonant to be supportive of Israel and a member of the Green Party - unless of course you fight against the knee-jerk visceral anti-Israel attitudes from within. However, this would mean taking on the very leadership of the Party - the problem goes all the way to the top in the form of the awful Caroline Lucas ( I once wrote to her about her advocacy for a boycott of the Jewish state and she didn't have the courtesy to bother replying).

But if you are ready to take on your own colleagues, then you would gain the admiration of many. Perhaps it would be better to show your commitment to the environment in other ways?


Blacklisted Dictator

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 23:15

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-2 points

Since Ms Lucas does not believe in parliamentary democracy (she has contempt for the rule of law), she should have joined Sinn Fein and not taken her seat in the House of Commons.

Have other MP's ever given evidence at criminal trials in which the defendants have admitted causing damage to private property? Is this really the role for a parliamentarian?


Isca Stieglitz

Wed, 07/07/2010 - 23:23

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1 point

I have thought seriously about leaving because I became increasingly aware and desensitised to increasing levels of anti-semitism - which incidently I wasn't 'looking' out for. This made it all the more upsetting; it caught me off guard and I felt really let down about the casual nature of it.

I do believe we all carry prejudices and all organisations will have there share of '-isms', the Greens are not immune.

This is why I started with the JC blog and looking for people who perhaps could inform me and help me.

I'm going to give it a go. The Green Party's policies cover so much more than the environment in isolation and I don't want to give it all up just yet.

I'll admit to feeling more than a tad scared and intimidated, but the Engage group seem worth a shot and are working really hard.

I hope I don't have to hear an "I told you so", in a few months. Ever the optimist eh?!


Harvey

Thu, 07/08/2010 - 10:16

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1 point

Isca

You need to ask yourself several questions.

Why should there be a need for a fringe group in the first place . Do other parties have the need to set up subsidiaries whose sole purpose is to monitor antisemitism within the rank and file? Why on earth should you have to dirty your hands doing this ?

The Green Party has long since forgotten its original remit. It has become a repository for far left activists and reactionaries and those who have an axe to grind against capatalist interests and of course Israel.

I understand your passion for Green Issues but there is no point being part of an organisation which countenances so much as one iota of antisemitic agenda . I also understand the convenience of placing oneself under the umbrella of an organisation which purports to do everything that it says on the label especially when that is your primary concern.

However if antisemitism is present at the very head of that organisation then it will be persuasive all the way to its roots and no amount of monitoring and mention at committee level will change that.

My advice would be to join a mainstream party and bring your passion and focus to educate and to increase peoples awareness of enviromental issues .

Unfortunately it looks to me that by joining Engage ,you will be spending much of your time will be spent monitoring antisemitism rather then enviromental issues.

I hope you eventually find the right path

Kind regards

Harvey .


mattpryor

Thu, 07/08/2010 - 10:23

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0 points

Good luck Isca, go forth and educate :)


Isca Stieglitz

Thu, 07/08/2010 - 10:52

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1 point

Thanks Matt!

@ Harvey - you have expressed nearly every thought I have had and others on this thread will agree with you too. Some would not.

You are right of course, its just I'm a tenacious so & so! Also, I've invested a lot of time a energy in the Green Party and part of 'letting go' for me, is also about being very sure. You are more sure than me at the moment. I just need to check if it's a brick wall. I will walk away if it is, no worries there.

I'm 43, a single mum to my beautiful 13 year old daughter and too long in the tooth to give it an overly long 'chance'. Too much living to do.

I'm glad I joined the JC blog.

"The Last Chance Green Saloon" beckons! Home knitted organic fair trade yak's milk anyone? ;o)

Take care,
Isca


mattpryor

Thu, 07/08/2010 - 11:23

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0 points

Icsa,

I've just left a message of support on Engage's blog site.

How else can people such as myself, who are alarmed by the rise of anti-Semitism in the UK, help organisations such as Engage?


Isca Stieglitz

Thu, 07/08/2010 - 12:15

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0 points

@Matt - I'm not sure, which is I why I started the blog and found Greens/Engage by accident.

Mira is a coordinator & I'm sure she, or one of the others will get back to you. If you look up this thread, Mira has left a contact; if this is the one you used already, she will reply.

I'm looking forward to doing practical things aswell as 'debate' and if you join the group you unfortunately/ probably won't be surprised by some of the issues brought to light. Worse than I thought.

C'est la guerre!


mattpryor

Thu, 07/08/2010 - 12:45

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@Isca Thanks for your reply, to be honest I thought that the post by Mira came from you which is why I addressed the question to you.

@prosperityforri.org

In that case are you advocating that Israel should formally annex Judea and Samaria and Gaza, ending Palestinian claims to self determination?

Or should Palestinians have autonomy in the West Bank and Gaza and elect representatives to both the Knesset and the Palestinian Authority?

Please tell us your preferred option or how you envisage such a scenario working.

Either way, how should Israel deal with the issue of Palestinian "right of return"? Given Israel's history do you understand why many Israelis see this as an existential threat?

What of the PA's other demands such as the division of Jerusalem? Are you able to empathise with Israeli concerns of a return to the days of Jordanian rule?


modernity

Fri, 07/09/2010 - 14:12

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2 points

hello Isca,

You have asked some very interesting questions and I'm not sure that any one of us can fully answer them.

Concerning the Green party I think that there are a number of things we should bear in mind

1) politicians such as Lucas look for popular issues which they can latch on to

2) there is a profound ignorance of the issues concerning antisemitism in Britain

3) bashing Israel is a bit of a political fad in Britain and parts of Europe

4) otherwise intelligent people who sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians often believe that they must be anti-Israeli to be pro- Palestinian, when that is obviously not the case.

5) the changing composition of the Green party as a rest home for old Lefties (and I speak as one) has brought with it the old residue of Leninist "anti-Zionism"

6) politically, politicians and activists have very little to lose from a bit of cheap Israeli bashing, it makes them feel good, doesn't lose too many votes, etc I know that sounds cynical but that's how it works out even with the Greens.

As far as what you can do I am not ready sure, but picking up green politician's when they make clumsy and inappropriate remarks is a good idea (this happened with Rupert Read, http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/the-curious-case-of-rupert... )

Also holding monthly discussions on racism and its common themes is a good idea, and maybe inviting someone from CST to do the specialist stuff on antisemitism, etc etc

I hope that helps...

PS: the CST blog is rather good too http://thecst.org.uk/blog/


rossoverde

Fri, 07/09/2010 - 15:44

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1 point

What is seen as anti-semitic, is a contested area within the Green Party as well as within society as a whole. Many people who support a boycott of Israel would be horrfied if accused of harbouring anti-semitic thoughts and many so called examples of anti semitism I have come across are very dubious, others entirely justified.

Direct action against EDO and other manufacturers of deadly weapons is entirely justified regardless if they are supplying Israel, Burma or any other regime.


jose (not verified)

Fri, 07/09/2010 - 16:06

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0 points

Many do not realise how widespread antisemitism is. Some even would be horrified to be called antisemitic even when caught in the act.
That proves only one thing: they just don't understand what antisemitism is and think it is just a bad word with no connection to any 'real thing'.

The proof of the antisemitism is in the double standard that is applied to Israel. Before supporting a boycott on Israel, ask yourself if there is any of the backwards Middle East countries that is much more worthy of such a boycott: think of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Lybia... and Gaza!

If you are not ready to apply a boycott to these countries, then forget about Israel or be ready to be called an antisemite.

The Green Parties, in many countries deserve it. No matter how many Jews are members.


mattpryor

Fri, 07/09/2010 - 16:11

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I agree wholeheartedly Jose, and people (Jewish or otherwise) should not hesitate to name anti-Semitism when we see it, instead of worrying what people will think. Anti-Semitism is a vile stain on civil society and it should be named and shamed, and singling out Israel for boycotts and criticism is a form of Jew hatred no matter how it is dressed up or justified.


Isca Stieglitz

Fri, 07/09/2010 - 16:42

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1 point

Again, thanks to you all for you contirbutions. It's informative and heartening to know there's lots of positive aswell as the usual negative interest.

Food for thought.

Best,
Isca


Isca Stieglitz

Sat, 07/17/2010 - 09:32

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2 points

Playing in background: music from the 'Twilight Zone'.

You can all rest assured that Isca Stieglitz is "Me" :o)

I have a family and because the 'blogging' and 'the discussion forum' can get 'hot', I prefer it that they are not dragged into my activities by name. They have a right to privacy and although we have a discursive and open home, with regard to all things (age appropriate of course); I prefer to keep a 'private' life of my own too. I also do lots of charity & media work in the field of mental health - I have Bi-Polar disorder - and these folk also deserve privacy. I use my common name where appropriate and necessary.

Sorry, no 'conspiracy' here.

(End music!)

I thus use my hebrew and old family name for these purposes. I have left my photo up, so that people who know me can identify me, as me, but for those who don't know me it is of no consequence to them which name I use. It would be very easy to work out 'who' I am and if you do, for the sake of my family & other associations, I would respectfully request that you keep it to yourself.

As for the rest, it is clear that you (Deborah Fink) have neither read or digested this thread. I do not agree with all the contributions, but value them nevertheless and may also, in adjunct to the open post, respond in private to some people. Many people took the time in responding to a very genuine and open request for information. If you don't find the discussion informative and cannot add anything 'new' or helpful, then simply don't; you waste your own time and energy at the very least if you do.

I am happy for you that you have not come across anti-semitism; this does not mean however, that I have not. There could be a myriad of reasons for this. However, it is not your place to try and tell someone how they should 'feel', especially as the anti-semitism which I have witnessed took me quite by surprise; so much so that I felt the need to 'check it out'.

Being the 'anorak' that I am, I always 'check' and 'check' again and when I think I've formed an opinion...I check again, especially the 'opposite' angle - walk in someone elses moccasins. Prior to this post I did not even know of 'Engage'; 'Greens Engage'; 'CiF' etc. I have learned a lot from the people here and elsewhere, some things I didn't like, but learned nevertheless. In particular, I have had refreshers in law and Admiralty law.

As for Caroline Lucas, you will note from this thread that I have admired her and have been inspired by her activity. However, she is now a very public figure and an MP for the Green Party. She, is as such, subject to public scrutiny and questioning like everyone else. I have merely responded to my own feelings and that of some of our constituents, who have been very perturbed by some of her's and Green's activities. So perturbed, that they have changed their vote to another party. When this happened, I had to investigate.

The legality of the activities of 'Smash EDO' and MPs and Judges is a reasonable subject to discuss. Citing, as comparisons, dead bodies and burned babies in a thread is diminshing to their 'memories' and all at once trivialises them as human beings. Competitions over death tolls is not respectful to any side in an argument or helpful.

If my experience of working for many years in Israel/West Bank/Judea/Samaria etc. and with seasoned and well respected peace negotiators, has taught me anything; it is that you do not fan the flames of an already incendiary situation with more fuel - whichever 'side/s' one is on. Although peace has not come yet, I have no doubt that it will and things would be a lot worse without these continued tireless people on the ground from all sides who continue against the odds with no outside support.

'Perspective' is in deed what we could ALL do a lot more of.


Jonathan Hoffman

Sat, 07/17/2010 - 20:26

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0 points

"As a Jewish member of the Green party I can say that I have not witnesed any anti-Semitism."

Well you're about the worst Judge imaginable - you think it's OK to disrupt Jerusalem Quartet concerts and sing carols in Church with the words doctored to vilify Israel.

If Fink says there is no antisemitism in the Greens then it is conclusive that there is.


jose (not verified)

Sat, 07/17/2010 - 23:43

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0 points

Green Parties around Europe are filled with antisemites. It would be very strange that the British one would be immune to this illness.


deborah.fink

Sun, 07/18/2010 - 04:24

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-3 points

Isca,

Ok, I understand you don't want to use your real name and yes, I did see that you admire Caroline, but my response was not totally aimed at you anyway.

Re. anti-Semitism in the party, all I have seen are spurious allegations of it from Greens engage, but it is clear to me that what they call anti-semitism is simply criticism of Israel and those who apologise for Israeli war-crimes. It was clear to me that these allegations are being made to divert attention from Israel's wrong-doing, stifle criticism and paralise action. Some people have been afraid to speak out against Israel for fear of being dubbed an anti-Semite.

My point about the computers, was that the activists caused damage to try and prevent more war crimes, and that Israel was committing a bigger crime than the activists. Lobbying MPs and protesting outside the Israeli embassy could not stop the war crimes in the way that helping to slow the sale of weapons can.

I'm interested to see that veteran right-wing Zionist Jonathan Hoffman has jumped in as soon as he's seen my name. I fail to see what my operatic intervention at the JQ concert has to do with my judgement on what constitutes anti-semitism. And the carols were parodied to show people the TRUTH of what Israel is doing now. If that is villification, well, Israel has villified itself by its own behaviour. But this is irrelevant, although we know that Hoffman sees criticism of Israel as anti-semitic rather than accepting that Israel's behaviour is simply unacceptable. (We don't call critics of Robert Mugabe racists just because he's black...)

People may be interested to know that Hoffman and his henchmen continually heckled an 87 year old Jewish survivor of Aushwitz on Holocaust Memorial Day, simply because they did not like his anti-Zionist views. When is a Holocaust survivor not a Holocaust survivor? When he's an anti-Zionist! Hoffman led his team of thugs in a chant of 'Racists out!' and had to be taken out by the police. Zionists will always go on about the Holocaust yet suddenly, it doesn't count anymore when a survivor spoils their arguments. This incident is evidence of how they only care about the Holocaust when it fits their agenda (justify israel's existence and silence criticism of Israel). It also shows a complete DISREGARD FOR HOLOCAUST VICTIMS and utter arrogance- that these guys know more about the Holocaust than a survivor.

I'm going off topic here but discrediting the messenger can work both ways,


Jonathan Hoffman

Sun, 07/18/2010 - 07:52

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0 points

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=2244

Usual drivel from Fink who tries to defend an antisemite just because he is a 'survivor' and who twists the 'lawful excuse' principle: If I sincerely believed that the was against German in 1939-45 was wrong, would it have been OK for me to vandalise factories making ammunition?

Caroline Lucas blamed Israel for the Mumbai massacre. This is just one example of a continuous stream of bigoted il-informed comments she has made - which additionally have nothing to do with the environment. As has already been noted in this thread, she has taken over from Galloway as anti-Isrel rabble-rouser-in-chief in Westminster. She encourages the law to be broken where Israel is concerned.

Isca, forget the Greens, leave them to Fink and her ilk - join the Conservatives who have a very sound environmental policy.


Jonathan Hoffman

Sun, 07/18/2010 - 08:09

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0 points

Correction: If I sincerely believed that the war against Germany in 1939-45 was wrong, would it have been OK for me to vandalise factories making ammunition?


happygoldfish

Sun, 07/18/2010 - 09:42

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1 point

if a holocaust survivor is a racist, why not say so? why does deborah fink wish to censor such criticism?

deborah fink: … Hoffman and his henchmen continually heckled an 87 year old Jewish survivor of Aushwitz on Holocaust Memorial Day, simply because they did not like his anti-Zionist views. When is a Holocaust survivor not a Holocaust survivor? When he's an anti-Zionist! Hoffman led his team of thugs in a chant of 'Racists out!' and had to be taken out by the police.

and "when is a racist not a racist? when he's a holocaust survivor!"

i don't know the facts of this incident, but just as jews can be racist, so holocaust survivors can be racist

deborah fink: It also shows a complete DISREGARD FOR HOLOCAUST VICTIMS and utter arrogance- that these guys know more about the Holocaust than a survivor.

(leaving aside the point that, i expect, he was talking about israel rather than the holocaust …)

since the vast majority of holocaust survivors would probably disagree with this survivor, how much we know depends on how many survivors we listen to …

someone like jonathan hoffman who (i assume) listens to all holocaust survivors knows a lot more than someone who listens to only an unrepresentative (and possibly racist) minority of them, and presents them as immune to criticism


Isca Stieglitz

Sun, 07/18/2010 - 23:43

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2 points

Deborah,
my answer was more in response to what you wrote about me on the Green Party 'International' & 'London' discussion lists. I don't want to copy the post here and didn't want to reply all over the Green Party lists either. I'm fairly sure members have better things to read.

It's not right that you told untruths about me and from a position of not even knowing me. The shame of it is, you only had to contact me directly through JC blog messaging and I'd have been happy to give you a direct answer.

Perhaps this loss of perspective, (your Green Party post), has led to a lost opportunity and that's a shame.


Ben Abuyah

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 00:19

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1 point

happygoldfish, you asked:

"if a holocaust survivor is a racist, why not say so?"

The only person who has suggested that this particular Holocaust survivor is a racist or antisemite is Jonathan Hoffman, and you shouldn't believe everything (or indeed anything) he says.

In his book, "antisemite" is simply code for "someone who doesn't agree with everything I say".


deborah.fink

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 02:59

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-2 points

Isca,

I didn't realise that I could contact you directly. I posted to Green party internal lists as I was suspicious, although I now know who you are. I did not tell untruths about you and am sorry that you think I did. I simply relayed that someone had posted on a JC blog and had undermined the Green party (by claiming that there might be anti-semitism in it).

The JC has become very right-wing under Stephen Pollard and is no friend of the Green party (or of Jews who want justice for the Palestinians). I just thought it was disloyal of you to post on here, although not half as disloyal as Greens engage.

As for Hoffman....He has of course missed my point about how Zionists only care about the Holocaust when it fits their agenda, and his answer illustrates this very well. So, it doesn't matter what this survivor went through, he deserves to be heckled and insulted withiout being listened to, because Hoffman knows more about Auschwitz than him! Talk about biggotry! Actually, Hoffman wouldn't even listen to his experiences of Auschwitz, so it shows how much he cares! As Hajo Meyer himsef said, the Zionist heckling illustrated his point.

Again, it is only Hoffman's opinion that this Jewish Holocaust survivor was anti-Semitic. And why? Because he described things as they are -that his experiences under the Nazis was comparable to how Israel treats the Palestinians. What on earth is racist about that? O of course, it goes against the Zionist (EUMC) defintion of anti-Semitism to call Jews Nazis..but hang on, he didn't, he just made comparisons, and he was talking about Israeli soldiers, not all Jews. Hoffman does not like to call a spade a spade.

And what is racist about wanting justice for Palestinians? Such is Hoffman's upside down world. O sorry, I forgot...Palestinians aren't human and deserve to be treated like that..Methinks that Hoffman is projecting his own racism onto Hajo Meyer.

O, and not forgetting that Hoffman's friends heckled a Palestinian survivor of operation Cast Lead speaking on a video link ...but then, the Zionist Federation don't want to hear the truth. They come to disrupt meetings rather than listen and learn. This total lack of respect and empathy for a Palestinian, is racist.


Jonathan Hoffman

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 07:29

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http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/come-and-see-hajo-amazing-dancing-bear

You are completely off-topic Fink.

Meyer is a sad case who says that Israel’s actions are the same as those of the Nazis, that Israel causes antisemitism and that “an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.” It is perfectly possible to be a antisemitic Survivor.He was deliberately chosen to speak in a room in the Parliamentary precinct on Holocaust Memorial Day, by you and your loony cronies: the Jews who are proud to be ashamed to be Jews.

Fortunately the JPR survey has proved that you are a loony fringe. 90% of British Jews see Israel as the ancestral homeland of the Jews.

For all your bluster and lies and distorted thinking, you are nothing more than an irrelevant marginal eccentric.


happygoldfish

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 08:41

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Ben Abuyah: The only person who has suggested that this particular Holocaust survivor is a racist or antisemite is Jonathan Hoffman, and you shouldn't believe everything (or indeed anything) he says.

i've made it clear that (since neither you nor deborah fink have bothered to supplied any source or link) i have no idea who or what you're talking about

happygoldfish: i don't know the facts of this incident

but surely you agree that, if a holocaust survivor is a racist, one should say so, and not be censored or censured for saying so?

Ben Abuyah: In his book, "antisemite" is simply code for "someone who doesn't agree with everything I say".

yes, and there are no antisemites in the green party, and the pope isn't catholic


Jonathan Hoffman

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 10:09

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http://hurryupharry.org/2008/07/01/how-to-appear-mad/

For those who have not had the pleasure ...


Isca Stieglitz

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 10:23

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Ok, so we're all clear.

And now I respectfully request that Deborah, Johnathan, Happy, Ben and anyone else who wants to discuss whether a Holocaust survivor has displayed antisemitism/racism or not, do so in a separate thread.

It may well be an interesting subject to discuss, in particular from a psychological & philosophical point of view, but you've taken my thread way off subject here and anyone reading it, may well wonder what's going on.

I will ask the JC if it's possible to close the thread; I think it's gone past its usefulness.

Thanks to everyone again for your contributions.


Anonymous

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:02

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