Words of wisdom from Barack Obama on the Middle East

Of course compared to Bush, who had the intelligence of an ape Obama really does have a first rate brain.. However the only way he can stop Israel's masterplan of taking the whole of Jerusalem by ringing it off with their settlements is for him to say No more money from us unless you stop.

It is strange how even Israeli politicians tend to admit the truth sooner or later. Who would have thought that Barak who should along with Livni et al be sent to the Hague would ever called Israel an aparthied state!

Those critics of Israeli policy / occupation of the Palestinians who have used the Apartheid word have typically been shouted down with the usual accusation of anti - semitism.

But now Israel's most decorated soldier uses Apartheid and Israel in the same sentence.
So where does that leave the discussion?

Apartheid is what it is, If you born a Jew you are treated like a human being, but born a Palestinian you are treated like an Untermensch. The question I always ask is how would we feel if we were born Palestinian?

I would feel that perhaps it is time to start pressuring my leaders into coming to a peace agreement, the contours of which are all known to both parties, instead of needlessly ruining my life with a violent struggle which is never going to get us a state.

Yes, but Miriam, as you know well, the Israelis have not negotiated in good faith since Oslo. Have negotiations got the Palestinians a state or even close to a state? The Israelis have built settlements, expanded existing ones, built new settler-only roads that cut off any contiguity necessary for a viable state, appropriated water and land, defended extremist settlers and have made other unilateral steps that they would not allow the Palestinians. Now they are even cracking down on Israeli human rights groups that protest against the situation.
Even this week, amid the bluff that is the 10-month construction freeze, Netanyahu went to Ariel to plant trees in what he described as "the capital of the Shomron that will stay in Israeli hands for ever." He has also made it clear that Israel will control the Jordan Valley, leaving the Palestinians with nothing much more than Israeli-controlled Bantustans. His governmental colleague, Benny Begin, was in Hebron, telling the swivel-eyed settler loons there that there would be no more dismantling of settlements.
So why should the Palestinians pressure their leaders while the Israelis don't do anything to alleviate their plight?

But even when the Palestinians don't struggle they get beaten up on.
You can't blame the victim, the occupied for their own condition! The Israelis are the occupiers!

What are the 'contours' you mention?

The version proposed by the current Israeli primeminister? A Palestinian state without a foreign policy, without control of its own borders, with a foreign army and settlements on its land, criss crossed with apartgheid roads? Are those the 'contours' you so graciously offer?

Gaza was sealed off for years - just like a huge ghetto - before Israel begun its onslaught. How should those trapped inside react in your opinion? Do they not have the right to resist the seige? Do they not have the right to shrug off the oppression?

And remember that those who build the walls, pull the triggers that kill hundreds of children, that slap the women who endlessly queue at the check points are Israeli hands, not Palestinian hands.

Are these the 'contours' your suggest?

11th March 2007
On Wednesday morning, 07/03/07, the representatives of Israel Land Administration (ILA) accompanied by police and tractors, arrived to the village Tawil Abu Jarwal. They pulled out all the residents from their tents and shacks, and demolished the village for the fifth time.

25 families were left homeless.

This time all the debris was loaded on lorries and taken away, including the sheep sheds.

Are these the 'contours' the Palestinians should accept?

Since 1967, Israel has created a "Greater" Jerusalem which controls the entire central portion of the West Bank and cuts the economic heart out of Palestinian state. While constructing 90,000 housing units for Jews in East Jerusalem, the municipality has intentionally created a shortage of 25,000 housing units for Palestinians. The goal is three-fold: (1) the blatantly racist objective of maintaining a 72%-28% majority of Jews over Arabs; (2) to confine the Palestinian population to small islands – the Arabs make up a third of the Jerusalem population, but only have access to 7% of the urban land; and (3) to ultimately force them out of the city.

The Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to solve their own situation through negotiations, but they were never willing to make serious compromises (as Israel was, and as the majority of Israelis still are should there be a serious partner on the other side). Unfortunately negotiations do involve compromises - from both sides. The Palestinians cannot get 100% of what they want but behave as if they can, and as a result, have no state.

The Israelis have shown time and again, Miriam, that they have not negotiated in good faith. They have played for time, on the Shamirian basis that "a day when nothing happens is a good day". And no matter what the complexion of the Israeli government, none has had the political will or courage to make substantial or serious compromises on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.

Palestinians have had numerous opportunities?

Like during the Oslo negotiations?

During the Oslo negotiations, when the status of the Occupied Territories was supposedly being negotiated, Israel expropriated 200 square kilometers of farm and pasture land for its own exclusive settlements and infrastructure.

Since 1967, Israel has declared 73% of the West Bank "state lands," thus annulling Palestinian deeds going back generations. This sets the stage for massive expropriations for settlements, military facilities, highways and by-pass roads, industrial areas, closed military areas and nature reserves.

What exactly has ever been serious about Israel's duplicitous leaders?

The Palestinians are constantly compromised. And if they don't do the bidding of Israel, Israel simply tightens the seige and kills a few more hundred civilians. (And then blames the PLO, Arafat, Hamas, The EU, anything but take responsibility)

Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September, 1993. Nevertheless, Israel has yet to explicitly and formally recognize Palestine's right to exist. The Palestinian people waited patiently since the Madrid Conference in 1991 for their freedom and independence despite Israel's incessant policy of creating facts on the ground by building colonies in occupied territory (Israeli housing units in Occupied Palestinian Territory - not including East Jerusalem - increased by 52% since the signing of the Oslo Accords and the settler population, including those in East Jerusalem, more than doubled).

gold.sarah is absolutely right, but why the surprise?
It is the duty of the Government of Israel to act in a way that is right for its Jewish population - NOT the Arab residents. It is the duty of the Government of Israel to act in a way that maintains the Jewish population in a secure environment NOT the Arab residents.
If gold.sarah and all the other trolls on this web site had their way Israel would be pushed back to 1948 borders with a Gazastan established on one side and a Westbankistan on the other side, with Iran pouring missiles into both as quickly and as fast as they could make them - the ultimate goal, destroy Israel and establish another Country in its place with NO Jews at all and call it Palestine.
Well, this may work in "The Alice In Wonderland" dreamland of gold.sarah, but I have news for you - "wake up and smell the coffee" and face the reality - it is NOT going to happen.
In case you are unaware there are 21 other Arab Countries, enough for all of your "refugees". The most the Arabs in Judea and Samaria can dream of is a federation with Jordan and for Gaza a federation with Egypt.
In my lifetime and in my childrens lifetime there is NEVER going to be an Arab State Of Palestine.

gold.sarah might be better advised to move onto the Guardian web site where your ultra left wing, Galloway loving, climate change embracing, vegetarian eating, open toed sandal wearing and Palestinian Fantasy Land ideas would be welcomed.
On this web -site I look forward to your comments and having a good laugh - Michael McIntyre couldn't do better! (Couldn't think of a well know commedienne)

Moshe - I disagree. Ehud Barak was absolutely serious about reaching an agreement. So, it is emerging, was Olmert - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135699.html
But the Palestinians rejected both without any serious attempts at counter-offers.

gold.sarah has nothing original to write.

A quick google search of the following text, which appears above:

"Since 1967, Israel has created a "Greater" Jerusalem which controls the entire central portion of the West Bank and cuts the economic heart out of Palestinian state. "

Reveals 17,900 results including this horrifically distorted piece:

http://rationalreality.50webs.com/israel.htm

She - if she is a she - is a propagandist. Could have at least reworded it to sound original.

Goebles would have been proud of you sarah.gold

Quite disturbing. Tell me, is this an organised spam attack or are you acting alone?

Oooh and this:

http://www.wrmea.com/html/faq.htm

The paragraph titled "Doesn't the violence which erupted following Camp David prove that Palestinians do not really want to live in peace with Israel?" looks oddly familiar.

It is typical of the Israel-bashers. They lie and cut-and-paste from familar sites and doctor quotations.

See my study of "Antisemitism On Guardian CIF", on the site 'Zionism On The Web'.

Or see CiFWatch.com

They should really be moderated out or banned. They are time-wasters.

This site does not have the resources to do that however I suspect.

Mr Hoffman appears to be scared of debate, so he wants to censor or ban those who disagree with him. As Eugene O'Neill wrote: "Censorship of anything, at any time, in any place, on whatever pretense, has always been and always will be the last resort of the boob and the bigot."
Or, to quote Rosa Luxemburg: "Freiheit ist immer die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden."

Miriam, let's nail a canard or two. Contrary to your assertion, the majority of Israelis show no inclination of wanting peace. If they did, then Meretz and Hadash would be leading government coalitions, not Bibi Netanyahu and his fascist partners from Yisrael Beiteinu, the fundamentalists of Shas and the fig-leaf that is Ehud Barak and whatever is left of the Labour Party.
What Barak and Olmert offered was a Bantustan Palestine, dotted with and cut into by settlements and criss-crossed by settler-only roads, with Israeli control of water resources, air space, the eastern border and foreign policy. No wonder this was rejected out of hand. It was Israeli time-wasting at its most obvious.

Sarah, read the Hamas Charter. Those guys don't recognise Israel's right to exist.

And here are some words of wisdom from Aluf Benn, an excellent Haaretz writer who lives in Israel and knows of what he speaks.

In Israel, the appearance of calm – especially in the past year, which has been the quietest security-wise in a decade – has important political ramifications. Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, with its ensuing allegations of Israeli war crimes, is seen here as a PR problem rather than as a moral or legal issue. The settlement debate is seen through the prism of Israeli-American relations, which most Israelis cherish.

As a result, most Israelis are indifferent to the establishment a Palestinian state. For several years, a stable two-thirds majority of Israelis have supported the idea in opinion surveys – while a similar majority doubted its possibility. They simply don't care, since they fail to see how an independent Palestine would make any change in Israelis' lives. At best, it might reduce some of the international criticism of Israel; and even that is doubtful. Israelis believe that security will be achieved by force, rather than diplomacy.

Moshe it has nothing to do with avoiding debate.

Spamming forums is not on. That's what has happened here. sarah.gold has flooded the comments section with cut-and-pasted anti-Israel propaganda. I've seen people do it on the Times website as well, and if you ask me the sole purpose is to stifle normal conversation and make it harder to find constructive arguments.

The websites which she gets her information from focus entirely on the wrongs committed by Israelis and ignore the context and reasons for those things happening. They also completely whitewash the barbaric, genocidal actions and intentions of Israel's enemies. That is not debate, it's not progressing the situation, it's brow beating - and not even her own thoughts and opinions, but ready-made opinions formulated by who knows who.

We all know that many Palestinians, who probably only want a quiet life, have suffered loss as a result of this conflict. So have many Israelis. Highlighting the former and ignoring the latter does not progress the situation.

I'm not going to lose sleep over it, but I suspect this is the latest tactic in cyber warfare!

Matt, with respect, the tactic of demeaning anyone who disagrees with you -- not you personally, of course -- including Holocaust survivors, has been employed on this website and others for some time by one individual. Gold.sarah hasn't ad hom'ed back, which in itself is refreshing. And I am sure you are aware that there are those who believe that the websites cited and cut and paste here by the one-eyed propagandists for Israel are also spam. But no one mentions that.

I have debated Israel and the Middle East intensively on much less friendly websites than this Moshe, and I can honestly say that people defending Israel against some of the most outrageously distorted accusations usually know what they're talking about without needing to copy and paste from propaganda websites.

The reason is that people who were / are supportive of Israel prior to and following Operation Cast Lead are generally quite knowledgeable about Middle Eastern affairs and politics, whereas those that swallow the anti-Israel propaganda generally learnt what they needed to know from the front of the Metro or from websites such as those I have cited above.

There are a great number of people who couldn't have found Israel or the disputed territories on a map 2 years ago and now consider themselves an authority because of websites such as these. They're not, they're just mouth pieces and propagandists.

Both sides have mouthpieces and propagandists, Matt, and their websites are always suspect. Also, I think you'll find that those who criticised certain aspects of Israeli policy, especially that towards the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and towards the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are also quite knowledgeable about Middle East affairs and politics -- no less so, in fact, than those who believe Israel can do no wrong.

Occupied territories? I'm not sure where you mean. Do you mean Disputed Territories Moshe?

Or do you not think there is a valid Jewish claim to Judea and Samaria?

No I mean occupied territories, such as the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan. No, I do not think there is a valid Israeli claim to the West Bank since it is land acquired by force.

Well even if you take the Arab narrative that the 1967 war was an offensive one on Israel's part (it wasn't), one could still argue that Israel was merely reclaiming land that Jordan had taken (by force) 19 years earlier, no?

No, you can't argue that, since the only defined borders Israel is really entitled to are the 1947 Partition ones (which the Zionist movement agreed to). These borders do not include the WB, most of the Galil and much of the Negev. And Jerusalem in its entirety is Internationalised. So, being charitable, the 4 June 1967 borders are quite an expansion and would suit Israel just fine.