Will Jews vote Liberal at the General Election?

Home alone tonight, so had a peep in here again! (Yes, yes, I know!!!)

Here are some interesting links re the Lib Dem record on Israel, courtesy of Chas N-B's admirable Oy Va Goy website:
Clegg calls for Brown to ‘unambiguously condemn’ Israel’s right to self-defence: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7815096.stm

Nick Clegg calls for Israel to be disarmed http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/07/nick-clegg-israel-ga...

Nick Clegg wonders whether the idea of Israel as a Jewish state is a new idea! http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/nick-clegg-israel-jewish%E2%80%99

Naive, distorted anti-Israel crap from Nick Clegg about the ‘blockade’ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/22/lift-the-gaza-blocad...

So Jenny Tonge has been sacked from the front bench.
I am proud to say that as a fully paid up member of the Jewish people I can put my hand on my heart and say that she is a wonderful person an NOT ANTI SEMITIC.
Actually Israel should be sacked from taking part in all sport events and cultural events. Mind you if you open your ears and eyes and talk to non-Jews, yes there are some out there, they nearly all regard Israel as an embarrassment and most are sickened by what this country did last year in Gaza. Wake up to life outside the ghetto.
I shall be out demonstrating tomorrow outside my local supermarket against them selling Israeli produce, and nearly everyone entering the shop will be agreeing with me as indeed theywas the case last time

Local supermarket? Where Planet Zog?
In your own delusional dimension.
"Fully paid up member of the Jewish People", if that is the case and you are in fact a Jew - with friends like you who needs enemies - it is you who needs to wake up and grow up - it is people like you who are the embarrassment.
You are a disgrace - go back to the Guardian web site, you will feel at home there.

Tom, you will be missing out on some lovely fruit and vegetables. Shouldn't you also chuck away your mobile phone and pc as they also contain Israel-made parts and software?

Also, certain medicines will have been researched and manufactured in Israel.

Have you got a copy of the list of items that you need to stop using forthwith?

Yvetta,
Many thanks for your links re Nick Clegg.

I think that the "Jenny Tonge" issue should now be turned into an issue about "Nick Clegg" and the Liberal's Party's stance re Israel.

It is about time that British Jewry took Clegg on.

Jenny Tonge is a hero, and as a result of the latest action this will only strengthen her and our resolve to fight on for the Palestinian cause. Most people of all classes in this country now know the truth of what Israel stands for. At middle class dinner parties these days no one has a good word to say about this Israel whose only support seems to come from politicians worried about general elections and bloggers.

Once again tomeisner2 drops in from Planet Zog! On his way back from the supermarket.
Jenny Tonge is your hero? Have you got a poster of her on your bedroom wall?
I'm sure your "middle class" dinner parties must be fun, with all your Guardianesque, climate change protaginist, open-toed-sandal wearing, vegatarian, Galloway loving, loony left friends, all vying to dream up the most antisemitic vitriol.
Sooner or later you will come to realise that the "Palestinian" cause you love so much is a lost one, when you grow up and leave your student politic days behind and enter the real world.

Well, Tommy m'lad, you're the one who appears to deride as "ghetto" Jews those who treasure their heritage and want to pass it to their children, those whom you arrogantly assume to mix only with Jews. Yet you seem to be displaying some of that old "ghetto bend" in worrying what the gentile gentlefolk say at their dinner parties!
(And just to rub it in, you posted the same comment on two separate blogs!)
Yes, Tom, we all know about those dinner parties. It was at one such that the French ambassador called Israel a "****** little country". It was at a dinner at a "gentleman's" club in Pall Mall in 2007 which I attended as a guest of the chairman of a committee I'm on - a non-Jewish committee, btw, for I'm fully integrated - that a former advisor to the MoD suddenly turned to me and gratuitously launched into an assault on Israel that took everyone by surprise as it had nothing at all to do with the conversation round the table.
But it makes me defend Israel from opprobrium all the more. And depend upon it, I rounded on him in no uncertain manner.
I wish you joy of Lady Tonge; you seem a pigeon pair.
I hope you don't freeze your tuches off outside the supermarket; I'm very partial to a sharon fruit myself.

Two-thirds of LibDem MPs have signed EDM502 which opposes a change to Universal Jurisdiction. If you want to know their attitude to Israel - that's it.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=40074&SESSION=903

I live in a small town far from the Metropolis (no shtetl, this, incidentally, Tom, you won't find many non-non-Jews round these parts), and my MP is a Lib Dem. He has a weekly spiel in the local paper - a risible rag, to be sure - and long long before Operation Cast Lead he was already devoting a weekly spiel to a rant about Israel. What that has to do with local issues, I haven't a clue, but such demonisation of Israel seems de rigueur these days among the Libs.
I vote Lib Dem in local elections, but at a national level I'd rather vote for the proverbial chimp ...
The Lib Dems' record on Israel is abysmal. I believe it all goes back to the mindset of only loving Jews when they're victims.
We also have to get the present government out.
And that surely means a vote for the Conservatives. Anything else is likely to keep Brown's lot in power.

Thanks, Jonathan. I see two deracinated Jewish MPs have signed.
And Ming.
Of course, it's framed in a clever way, with no specific reference to the subject of its enmity.

Please tell me what on a deracinated Jewish Mp is. The way you write that does sound like something from "Die Vergangheit"
But that is the problem and the reason why I care so much about the Israel/Palestine issue.
In 1938 my family had no choice. They were Jews living in Germany. Wrong race according to Hitler.

1948-2009 Palestinians have also been termed the wrong race (apart from 1.4 million Israel couldn't chuck out, who to this day are heavily discriminated against)

you see the parallels are so uncomfortably close don't you think?

Not at all.
And shouldn't you be boycotting?

It is quite evident that Tonge is an antisemite and Clegg should have the courage to state this
obvious conclusion.Clegg has his reasons for refusing to do so and there are a multiplicity of them. But by refusing to state the truth, he has become complicit in Tonge's antisemitism. It is am example of how fashionable Liberal anti-zionism morphs into run-of-the-mill antisemitism.

Clegg should be ashamed of himself. He has lost all credibilty. He has effectively led The Liberals into political oblivion and I doubt whether they will ever recover.

I wonder whether this is a typical view of the average Liberal Democratic candidate...

Linda Jack, Liberal Democrat PPC for mid Beds:

"Frankly, in my view, Nick has totally over reacted, which is disappointing given his unblemished and brave record of standing up to the Israeli lobby. He says – I quote from the BBC article – “The comments were wrong, distasteful and provocative and I recognise the deep and understandable distress they have caused to the Jewish community,” Nick thus plays into the hands of the Zionists – if Jenny caused distress it was surely to the Israeli community? The British are being accused of colluding with torture, do we worry about that causing distress to the Christian community?
…
Jenny has not accepted the allegations, she has merely suggested they should be investigated. Of course they are outrageous allegations, but so was the suggestion that this country may have colluded with torturers. Of course it is beyond belief that human beings, sent to help a country in distress would do such a thing, but human beings do do terrible things to each other, be they Israeli, American, Iraqi or British, particularly when they have been able to dehumanize those they hurt. Now, of course, I am not suggesting I believe these allegations, just challenging the idea that we assume some people are automatically beyond reproach. If such allegations had been made against Iranian forces for example, would that have evoked the same reaction?
…
In all of this the danger is that we lose sight of the very real outrage that the world sits silently by and allows the Israeli state to behave with impunity in violating not just the human rights of the Palestinians but of its own citizens.
…
Jenny has been a brave and courageous voice challenging this. I know her to be a woman of huge integrity and compassion – she speaks out of the agony of witnessing what is happening virtually unchallenged in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel itself."

" Now, of course, I am not suggesting I believe these allegations, just challenging the idea that we assume some people are automatically beyond reproach." (Linda Jack)

This quote from Linda Jack is classic modern PC antisemitism.

this is not antisemitism. people like you have not developed since the ghettos.Take a trip to the west bank and see for yourselves what is going on. That is the truth not the lies that you are fed all the time by our brethren. Any of you with a modicum of sensitivity in your bodies couldn't help shifting your position if you were to go there.

Tom,
Obviously the "subtlety" of modern PC antisemitism goes over your head. Have you really reflected on the implications of the quote from Linda Jack?

" Now, of course, I am not suggesting I believe these allegations, just challenging the idea that we assume some people are automatically beyond reproach."

I am an Israeli living in England so that I can be with my husband. I hope I wont have to stay here much longer, since it is becoming a nightmare - back to the past. The old horrors of Jews being blamed for poisoning the wells, drinking children's blood, etc. are all appearing in no less sophistication, despite their hi-tech aura.
Clegg has made a gesture in removing Evil To(u)nge from her position, but in an Election Year it is very much a nominal gesture. The NatLibs are hardly friends of Zion, and have their own agenda in garnering votes.
This woman lost a daughter several years ago. An electrical accident in the home, and the builder was never named. All information on the event said "an unnamed builder/plumber" did the installation in the daughter's home. Probably he was unnamed since no receipts could name him because he was a cheapskate "illegal". After this family tragedy, Tonge said she would give up her locsl MP position to care for her young grandchildren, who were now motherless,
My question is this: Is a woman who is so unbalanced that she can make statements such as she has about body parts being harvested, and then later apologise, be allowed to be the guardian of vulnerable children. Shouldn't Social Services look into the sanity and moral character of this person? I believe that if an ordinary citizen went around making such weird statements, she would be watched carefully and even be considered if not for prosecution, then at least sectioned as mentally incapable. But then of course, it wads only Israelis, Jews, who were accused of these horrible crimes. If Palestinians or some other people had been accused in this way, laws against racism etc would have been brought down to indict this evil and vile woman.

Haya Malka,

I don't think that the issue is Jenny Tonge. She is irrelevant. Just a crazed antismeite. You are wasting your energy worrying about her and her grandchildren.

The issue is Nick Clegg and The Liberal Democrats.

I agree with you, BD. Linda Jack has articulated antisemitism.
Several "top" Lib Dems seem to be affected with the same mutant virus.

Yvetta,
I reckon that The Lib Dems have concluded that there are votes to be won by being blatantly antisemitic. It is quite chilling.

Sadly, I think there's something in what you say. I just hope the Lib Dems don't become too powerful a force, should Labour be (as I sincerely hope) routed.

Yvetta,
Of course Muslims in the UK outnumber Jews 6:1 (perhaps more?)

So Clegg has calculated that anti-zionism with a dash of antisemitism is a vote winner.

I wonder what sort of ethnic constituency Linda Jack is appealing to. Seems to me that she is blatantly playing the race card.

In some quarters it's Open Season on the Jews alright.
I note the ominous lack of a comma in Ms Jack's concluding remarks, and can only assume that she's a One State advocate, a position which is gaining momentum, it seems:
"...one day we will celebrate a meaningful and lasting peace in Israel Palestine - but that peace will continue to allude us until we recognise that there can be no peace without justice and until we recognise that the Israeli state and the Jewish religion are not synonymous."

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the BBC takes her on as a regular panellist after this!

Haya Malka, how ever we may differ on Israel et al you have no right to print really nasty things about a dreadful tragedy that befell Jenny Tonge some years ago. I am sure you wouldn't respond very kindly if someone were to write about personal tragedies that you might have had gone through. Please reconsider your comment. Thank you very much

Yvetta,

Interesting that Linda Jacks conflates British Jewry with the Israeli community...

"Frankly, in my view, Nick has totally over reacted, which is disappointing given his unblemished and brave record of standing up to the Israeli lobby. He says – I quote from the BBC article – “The comments were wrong, distasteful and provocative and I recognise the deep and understandable distress they have caused to the Jewish community,” Nick thus plays into the hands of the Zionists – if Jenny caused distress it was surely to the Israeli community?

Yvetta,

I checked out the full text on Linda Jack's blog which included the "Oh yes.."

"The British are being accused of colluding with torture, do we worry about that causing distress to the Christian community? Oh yes, we also have a sizeable Muslim community, so does Israel, and numerous other faiths, so does Israel." (Linda Jacks)

Call me a sick cynic, but I reckon that Linda has a sizable Muslim community in her constituency.

http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-sacks-jenny-tonge-17932.html

Seth
Posted 13th February 2010 at 8:55 pm
"I can remember actually defending Jenny over some comments of hers six years ago – something I could never do now.

At the time, she was sacked from the Lib Dem shadow cabinet for saying that if she lived in the same conditions as ordinary Palestinians, she might consider becoming a suicide bomber herself. While I never agreed with the sentiment, I did think at the time that she was being maligned for simply asking people to understand that terrorists have grievances, no matter how evil their methods.

The problem is, even relatively mild (by her standards) comments such as that can take on a far more sinister form when you begin to see it in the light of the many comments she’s made over the years on Jews and Israel, especially when she dangerously confuses the two – not to mention her vilifying all Israeli citizens for the past actions of the Israeli government.

And she’s a far from neutral voice – while I’d be the first to condemn the methods of the Israeli army and government on the West Bank, I find Jenny disgustingly silent about the brutal actions of Palestinian terrorists.

Given that we currently have on the Lib Dem benches an unashamed Palestinian propagandist who puts out weasel words on Jews at every opportunity, I think the whip being withdrawn is long overdue. If it were an Israeli propagandist consistently spewing out this sort of venom on the Palestinians, I hope we’d feel exactly the same way."

Yvetta,
This is also an intersting comment from the same blog and alludes to the fact that The Jews are irrelevant electorally.

Sesenco
Posted 13th February 2010 at 2:45 pm
"Clegg seems to have fallen for the widely held but erroneous belief that there is a monolithic and immensley powerful “Jewish lobby” in this country which one must not offend, however slightly, on pain of political death.

According to the 2001 Census, some 238,000 people in the UK describe themselves as “Jewish”, and not all of those support Israel or agree in any significant way with the hysterical Jewish nationalist trolls cluttering up this thread. Yes, that’s right. 238,000 out of 60 million, a figure that has halved in 50 years due to the entirely peaceful process of intermarriage and assimilation.

There is nothing to fear, Nick. Liberal Democrats can ask governments to invesigate allegations of human rights abuses without the slightest risk of electoral meltdown (even if said allegations have been made against the IDF)."

I have emailed Linda Jacks and have asked her to repond to the various comments.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/25895

'The Iconoclast-New English Review"

"Tonge was famously removed from the front bench by Charles Kennedy, who in a sober moment sacked her for declaring of Palestinian suicide bombers: “I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself.”

Though inevitably elevated into the Lords, morally Tonge descended further. In 2006 she was reprimanded by Kennedy’s successor as Liberal leader, Menzies Campbell, for saying, “The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the Western world, its financial grips. I think they have probably got a certain grip on our party.”

Evidently the effects of stepping down from politics and into conspiracy theory all got too much. By last year she was to be found in Damascus, speaking to the head of the proscribed terrorist group Hamas and also the head of Islamic Jihad. She praised the head of Hamas after their meeting as “shrewd, plausible and actually very likeable”. A quote I had an opportunity to read back at her the other week when we met.

Last summer I asked Nick Clegg at a public meeting why he tolerated Tonge remaining within his Parliamentary party and read him some of her choice quotes. He promised in front of a crowded room in Parliament chaired by Denis MacShane MP that if she were to say anything like her previous statements on his watch then he would take action.

Now we can all find out just how big a man Clegg is. If he has any ability at all to keep his word perhaps he can now demonstrate it by releasing Jihad Jenny from the slight honour of his party’s whip.

Don't hold your breath."

So the question arises "Why hasn't Clegg withdrawn The Whip?"

The only logical reason is that Clegg doesn't want to alienate prospective Muslim voters.
Tonge's remarks are embarrassing to Clegg (even he cannot support them) but he is unwilling to alienate Muslims in constituencies in which he thinks might be won by Liberal Democrats. He is prepared to put electoral advantage before a proper condemnation of Tonge which would include the withdrawal of the whip. This is the depths that The Liberal Democrats have sunk to. Clegg has sold out. Let The Liberal Democrats be damned.

The comment you've quoted from Sesenco, BD, is particularly unsavoury and rather immoral.
As for Linda and Tonge, the keenness of "liberated" women to support those who oppress women never ceases to amaze me.
By consorting with Hamas, a group that is murderously antisemitic in its Charter, Tonge should have put herself beyond the Pale as far as Clegg is concerned.

Luton North has a big Muslim community and this helps to explain Linda Jack's support for Jenny Tonge.

Constituency profile
Northern part of tough town on M1 north of London

The 2005 general election
Kelvin Hopkins, Labour 19,062 48.7%
Hannah Hall, Conservative 12,575 32.1%
Linda Jack, Liberal Democrat 6,081 15.5%
Colin Brown, UK Independence Party 1,255 3.2%
Kayson Gurney, Independent 149 0.4%

It is a pity that Clegg does not also try and remove Linda Jack as prospective parliamentary candidate for Luton North.

How any self respecting Jew can cast a vote in any election (local or national) for a party that tolerates Jihad Jenny is beyond me.

I understand from my American relatives that this is making news in the USA - nobody there understands how the UK can be infested with so many anti-Semites these days.

I am so thankful that there are more Jews than ever willing to stand up and take it right back to these odious people (although I wish more of us would stop cowering in a corner).

Well, I am a self-respecting Jew, and I'm also a Liberal Democrat Parliamentary candidate. Andrew, what about the Conservatives' dangerous alliance with Kaminski and others of his ilk? What about Labour's tolerance of Ken Livingstone for so long? My Leader has sacked Baroness Tonge from the front bench - did Labour sack Livingstone when he made his remarks about the Reubens? A quick quiz. Question 1: Which is the only British political party to have passed a party conference motion condeming the proposed academic boycott of Israel? Answer: The Liberal Democrats. Question 2: Who was the only party leader to call for the UK not to participate in Durban II? Answer: Nick Clegg. Question 3: Which political party has a sitting MP who was once disciplined for making a disgusting joke about asylum seekers? Answer: The Conservative Party. Question 4: How many people reading this, are, like me, themselves the children or grandchildren of asylum seekers, meaning that it was your family that the appalling 'joke' was about? I'll leave you to answer that one for yourselves.

Matthew, I am in complete agreement with you about Labour and Ken Livingstone - that is why I cannot bring myself to vote Labour either.

As for the Tories, the joke about an asylum seeker was not acceptable. Since that MP was disciplined, how many further comments has that MP made? Jihad Jenny repeatedly makes outrageous and unacceptable comments - a pattern or pathology of misdeeds however you would prefer to describe it. I would be more than happy to consider voting for any Lib Dem MP who called for the whip to be removed from Jihad Jenny but so far no one has stepped up. Could you be the first? I would applaud you to the hilt if only....

My own Lib Dem MP writes columns in the local newspaper demonising Israel. This is entirely gratuitous, having nothing to do with local issues. He doesn't even have the excuse of trying to appeal to a Muslim electorate. This is a fairly homogenous small town.
Sorry, Matthew, your party is infested with what I might charitably describe as ambivalence towards Israel, from Ming, from Clegg, down.
The Tories will be getting my vote.

I am conducting a survey and would love you all to take part. There is only one question.

Have any of you ever met and had a conversation with a Palestinian?

I am also conducting a survey, Tom.

Do you believe that the Jewish people who have been marginalised, persecuted, and expelled from place after place for centuries are entitled to any square footage on this planet for which they can call their own, free from the shackles of being a tiny minority community?

Sir Menzies Campbell seems to have found Israel guilty of the Dubai assassination, though no proof exists. He has hastened to demand that the Israeli Ambassador be summoned to the FO for an explanation.
Bad news for Jews, those Liberal grandees.

Ming Campbell's reaction to the Dubai incident - he's been huffing and pugging against Israel on any news channel that invites him, it seems, including Channel Four last night (where a former Mossad agent made mincemeat of him and the automatic assumption that Mossad carried out the assassination) is another reminder that the Lib Dems are lethal re Israel.
I recall the Lib Dem Friends of Israel getting excited when Susan Kramer joined the parliamentary benches - alas, she soon proved a critic of the beleagured little state.