Wham Bam - Cam Slammed!


By Jonathan Hoffman
July 28, 2010
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David Cameron’s comments in Ankara were crass, ignorant and inexcusable and he has been rightly pilloried by Melanie Phillips and others. It seems that the FCO Camel Corps got to him quickly.

Forget the exhortations to the EU to admit Turkey as a member. That was said in the full knowledge that it isn’t going to happen any time soon and was completely transparent gesture politics. One gesture was a kiss blown in the direction of everyone's friend Obama, the second a two-fingered utterly cynical gesture towards France and Germany, who effectively blocked Turkey’s EU entry years ago. This gesture was designed to curry favour for UK businesses and parts of the UK Muslim and Middle East Arab lobbies alike.

No, it was the comments about Israel that were so mind-blowingly ill-informed.

Cameron said “the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was completely unacceptable” and went on to refer to Gaza as a “prison camp”.

Israeli troops tried to board the Marmara peacefully after it ignored many warnings not to head to the Gaza Strip. Cameron forgets that five boats docked peacefully in Ashdod. Only the Marmara disobeyed the warnings. But then it was full of Turkish-backed IHH terrorists who wanted (and we have the recording) to perpetrate terror against Israel.

Cameron also forgets that those armed terrorists on the Marmara who attempted to lynch and kidnap the Israeli commandos who boarded the boat and who did not use violence until they themselves were attacked.

As for Gaza being a ‘prison camp’ (with the implication from the context that it is Israel’s fault) – why does Cameron ignore the thousands of tons of food and necessities that go into Gaza every week? And the sick who come out to be treated at Israeli hospitals? The only reason why free movement is not permitted between Gaza and Israel is because of Hamas terror in Gaza. It is not Israel who throws Fatah members blindfolded off roofs to a certain death. And it is not Israel who is holding Gilad Shalit and depriving him of everything to which he is entitled as a Prisoner of War -- It is Hamas.

As one who campaigned for the Conservatives I believe they are the party that will be the fairest for Israel. But this Cameron speech hardly fills me with confidence.

UPDATE: I may have maligned the FCO who reportedly were as surprised as anyone to see the Cameron comments about Israel. It seems that Obama may have been the one who fed him the drivel -- and that he willingly swallowed...

COMMENTS

Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 16:04

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0 points

Good points, I posted this elsewhere, but it is just as relevant here.

According to the Office for National Statistics in the UK.
January 2009 records show 2.4 million Moslems in the UK, (and rising into the stratosphere) and 280,000 Jews in the UK, (and declining).

Isn't it that simple?

And, I'm sure you've seen "Midnight Express", if he'd said anything else, they wouldn't have let him out of the Country!


Yvetta

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 16:53

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1 point

Excellent, Jonathan. I reckon Cameron's been pilloried by some of his hon. members too.
I hope you're right about Turkey ...


yankeeuxb (not verified)

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 16:59

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-4 points

More myths.

The flotilla to Gaza was not carrying terrorists and neither was it carrying weapons.

The other boats were boarded and hijacked and forced to go to israel. There is ample testimony from ex US ambassadors, Swedish novelists and Malaysian Parliamentarians (amongst hundreds of others) to back this up.

Following the assault on the main ship, the smaller ships realised that israel was prepared to kill at will. (the victims were shot numerous times, most in the back and head)

If, as the war crime apologists continue to argue, the reason that Gaza is under an illegal seige is because of Hamas, why is the West Bank also occupied and surrounded by a wall and dotted with illegal settlements? There is no Hamas in the West Bank.

Regarding Shalit. Yes he should be released. But so should the thousand plus Palestinians held in israel, many hundreds held without charge and many dozens are children.

David Cameron's remarks on the attack on unarmed civilians in international waters and the seige of Gaza is the opinion of every leading politician in the world, including the Deputy Prime minister of the UK.


raycook

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 17:21

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2 points

Not terrorists? Anyone who wishes to kill anyone or die attempting to do so for no other reason than that they are 'Zionists' is a terrorist.

see http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/ipc...

Interim summary of information on Turkish nationals killed in the incident

1. Following are the names and details of the Turkish nationals killed based on the information accumulated so far:

Ibrahim Bilgen, 61, electronics engineer from Siirt, member of the association of electronics engineers in Turkey, originally from Mosul, Iraq. He ran in the 2007 elections on behalf of the Felicity Party, and also ran for mayor of Siirt in 2009. He was married and father of six. A relative of his noted that he wanted to die as a shaheed. He joined the flotilla as an IHH volunteer.

Ali Haydar Bengi, 39, owner of a telephone repair store in Diyarbakir, southeastern Turkey (a city known as a stronghold of radical Islamic parties). He graduated from Al-Azhar University in Cairo (Arabic literature). He was married and father of four. Member of the Felicity Party. Was active in Islamic organizations and was chairman of an Islamic charitable society in Diyarbakir named Özgürlükler Eğitim Kültür ve Dayanışma Derneği (Ayder, the brotherhood association for a bright future, rights, and liberty). His wife said in an interview that he had wanted to reach Palestine for many years, and constantly prayed to Allah to grant him martyrdom. His friends said that he wanted to be a shaheed and that he “had an intense desire to die as a shaheed”. The association he headed was affiliated with the IHH and its operatives collected equipment and food for the organization prior to setting sail.

Cevdet Kiliçlar, 38, from Kayseri. Graduate of the media faculty in the University of Marmara, formerly employed as a journalist for the National Gazette and the Anatolia Times. In the past year, he worked as a reporter and website manager for the IHH. He is married and father of two. A recorded statement by Kiliçlar was found aboard the Mavi Marmara: “While our friends were praying at the [Istanbul] Fatih Mosque in memory of the brothers killed in battle in Afghanistan, we boarded this ship [Mavi Marmara] and were therefore unable to take part in the prayer. May the souls [of those killed in Afghanistan] be in paradise. We, too, prayed on our way to our brothers in Gaza, and I pray that Allah will grant us a happy ending, just like those shaheeds”.1

Çetin Topçuoglu, 54, from Adana. Amateur soccer player and former Taekwondo champion. Trained the Turkish Taekwondo team. Married and father of one. His wife, Çigdem Topçuoglu, was also on the Mavi Marmara with friends and family. Member of AYDER, a humanitarian aid organization affiliated with IHH. Took part in the previous aid convoy to the Gaza Strip which arrived in El-Arish (and confronted Egyptian security forces). Before departing, he left a letter hinting that he expected to die as a shaheed and called on others to aspire to a similar death.

Necdet Yildirim, 32, from Malatya. IHH operative in Istanbul. Worked at a sports association in Istanbul (malatyaguncel.com). Married and father of one. There is a possibility (although we don't have any information on that) that he may be related to IHH leader Bulent Yildirim.

Fahri Yaldiz, 43, fireman in the town of Adiyaman (eastern Antalya). Married and father of four. Worked as a security guard at IHH conferences. IHH operative in the town where he lived. During the municipal elections he worked as a bodyguard for the mayor on behalf of Refah, Erbakan’s Islamist party. In 2007, he made extensive preparations for taking part in the flotilla and had a passport issued (haberdemeti.com). Prior to his departure, he announced that he was going to be a shaheed and said goodbye to his wife and children.

Cengiz Songür, 47, from Konya. Came on board the ship in Antalya. Married and father of seven. Worked as a textile salesman for living. Activist in the Islamic association Izmir Özgür-Der, which espouses a radical Islamic ideology similar to that of IHH. The association provides aid to Muslims worldwide, including in Afghanistan, Egypt, and Lebanon (similarly to IHH).

Poster with an image of Cengiz Songür. The poster reads: “Those killed for the sake of Allah are not considered dead, but rather living alongside their Lord [in paradise]” (haksozhaber.net). During the second intifada, that verse was used to grant religious-Islamic legitimacy to shaheeds who perpetrated suicide bombing attacks, and it appeared numerous times on posters commemorating the suicide bombers. The verse was also used in eulogies for those sent to dangerous missions and killed in conflict with the enemies of Islam.

A poster that reads: “Warriors of Gaza, glorified men of resistance, welcome”
(on the left, one of the people carries a photograph of Songür) (bighaber.com)
h. Cengiz Akyüz, 41, from Iskenderun. Married and father of three. IHH operative. Joined the flotilla with Zakariya Kanat, the director of the Hatay branch (Alexandretta) of IHH. Left a will prior to his departure (islamigundem.com).

i. Furkan Dogan, 19, senior high school student in Kayseri. The son of Dr. Ahmet Dogan from the University of Erciyes. Citizen of both Turkey and the US. We have no information about his links to any Islamic organizations.

In addition, Italian MP Fiamma Nirenstein is calling for the IHH to be proscribed as a terror organisation:

Dear friends,

I just presented a parliamentary question to the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs requiring to evaluate the possibility to insert the Turkish organization IHH ("Insani Yardim Vafki"), one of the main promoters of the Mavi Marmara and responsible for its violent implications, in the list of terrorist organizations of the European Union.

Several investigations and reports testify the involvement of IHH in global terrorism and many videos and documents attest its jihadist attitude finalized at "martyrdom in the name of Allah”. Because of its connection to Hamas and the "Union of Good" (an Islamic umbrella organization affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood that was put in the US' terror list in 2008), Germany has recently banned IHH and in the USA, a bipartisan group of Senators appealed to President Obama with a request to enter the IHH in the US’ list of terrorist organizations.

See also http://fiammanirenstein.com/articoli.asp?Categoria=5&Id=2412


raycook

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 17:28

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1 point

No weapons? So iron bars and knifes are not weapons?

Shot numerous times? 30 shots in 9 people. Seems reasonable to me if you are trying to disable someone coming toward you with a knife. What would you do, pucker your lips?

Hamas not reasponsible for the blockade? Israel evacuated Gaza leaving behind milions of dollars of agricultural equipment with which Gazans could develop their economy. But Hamas trashed the lot.

They then began firing rockets into Israel in gratitude an dimporting arms from Iran.

What would you do if a rocket landed in your kids' school and you had to run to a shelter every day with 15 seconds warning? Shrug your shoulders?


raycook

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 17:29

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1 point

Sorry Jonathan for going off topic but I couldn't let these lies go uncontested.


mattpryor

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 17:33

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1 point

Thanks Ray for a very informative comment.

There's lots of debate going on about Cameron's ill-chosen words over at the Spectator:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6169328/camerons-provocative-lang...

yankeeuxb, feel free to make a dick out of yourself there too.


Yvetta

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 18:52

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1 point

Yes, awesome stuff, Ray. Thanks.


Ben Abuyah

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 19:15

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Jon_i_Cohen:

"According to the Office for National Statistics in the UK.
January 2009 records show 2.4 million Moslems in the UK, (and rising into the stratosphere) and 280,000 Jews in the UK, (and declining)."

I challenge you to substantiate those figures.


Yvetta

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 19:18

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1 point

Unless you expect Jon to replicate the work of the Office for National Statistics, he already has - merely by citing so reliable a source.


Ben Abuyah

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 19:25

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I'm asking him to provide evidence that those figures have been quoted by the ONS, because I don't believe they have.


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 20:41

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-2 points

Thanks Yvetta
But i know these lefty, Israel de legitimiser types have trouble with facts, so for Ben Abuyah's benefit here is the source of the population statistics:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00478/table_478352a.jpg

It is also on the ONS web site in greater detail but I doubt if the 2-digit IQ of Ben Abuyah could comprehend it.


Ben Abuyah

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 22:19

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1 point

You're being very touchy, Jon - I was only asking for a source for those figures. I'd be interested in a link to the relevant datasets on the ONS website, if you've got one to hand.

As the footnotes to the table point out, figures from the LFS do need to be read with caution, since it is just a sample survey. A lot of people would be surprised to see that there are as many as 285,000 Jews, since the 2001 census only recorded 270,000, and the received wisdom is that we're declining.

The accompanying article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece) cites unnamed "experts", who attribute the increase in the Muslim population to various causes, but doesn't attempt to quantify the contribution of each of those causes. (I don't think they are the same as the commentators named later in the article.) My own suspicion is that an increased willingness to self-identify as Muslim is a major factor.


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 22:39

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In 'Delegitimiser 101', they teach them to question every fact that is thrown at them and ask for sources.

Just look at CIF.

It substitutes for reasoned argument, because people with double digit IQs don't do reasoned argument.


Ben Abuyah

Wed, 07/28/2010 - 23:48

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Ah, I see we're resorting to shouting "delegitimiser" at anyone who dares to disagree with you. You should have a look at the following article, which discusses this phenomenon.

http://jewishquarterly.org/2010/07/delegitimising-the-delegitimisers/

Jonathan, I'm sure you realise that most of the people who have the misfortune to come into contact with you professionally already consider you to be a complete twat. If I were you, I'd stop digging.


happygoldfish

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 00:32

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2 points

i have to agree with ben abuyah here …

jon i cohen should not have posted those statistics without giving his source …

since he presumably copied them directly from the source, it would only have taken him a few seconds to provide the link also

by deliberately failing to do so (as on many other occasions), he makes it entirely reasonable for anyone to question his facts

too many people on this website fail to provide any source or link for their facts

Jonathan Hoffman: In 'Delegitimiser 101', they teach them to question every fact that is thrown at them and ask for sources.
Just look at CIF.
It substitutes for reasoned argument, because people with double digit IQs don't do reasoned argument.

this is very twisted logic …

providing sources for facts (and objecting to the failure to do so) is part of reasoned argument


Jon_i_Cohen

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 08:51

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-1 points

happygoldfish
The source and link for the statistics was provided at 20:41 on 28th July what was the point of your comment at 00:32 ?

I quote:-Jonathan Hoffman:

In 'Delegitimiser 101', they teach them to question every fact that is thrown at them and ask for sources.
Just look at CIF.
It substitutes for reasoned argument, because people with double digit IQs don't do reasoned argument.

It is irrelevant whether there are 285,280 or 270,000 Jews in the UK, the point is that there are over 2.4 million Muslims in the UK and rising - this is the concern and why "call me Dave" Cameron is pandering to them.


Ben Abuyah

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 10:08

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0 points

Jon, you're becoming extremely tiresome. You seem to think that sucking up to your pin-up Jonathan Hoffman, and quoting an argument of his which has already been demolished, will somehow strengthen your case.

And you have not proven that "there are over 2.4 million Muslims in the UK and rising" - as I pointed out, this figure is not a fact, it is an estimate based on sample data, and therefore needs to be treated with caution.


happygoldfish

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 11:23

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2 points

jon, you have a track-record of behaving badly, being caught, but refusing to admit it

at 16:04 you provided facts with no source, at 19:15 ben abuyah asked you for the source, at 20:41 you provided the source, and you criticised ben abuyah for asking for it, at 22:39 jonathan hoffman criticised him on the same grounds …

and then at 00:32 i pointed out that at 19:15 ben abuyah had been right in asking for your source, and you had been wrong in not having provided one

Jon_i_Cohen 28 July, 2010 - 16:04: According to the Office for National Statistics in the UK.
January 2009 records show 2.4 million Moslems in the UK, (and rising into the stratosphere) and 280,000 Jews in the UK, (and declining).

Ben Abuyah 28 July, 2010 - 19:15: Jon_i_Cohen: "According to the Office for National Statistics in the UK.
January 2009 records show 2.4 million Moslems in the UK, (and rising into the stratosphere) and 280,000 Jews in the UK, (and declining)."
I challenge you to substantiate those figures.

Jon_i_Cohen 28 July, 2010 - 20:41: But i know these lefty, Israel de legitimiser types have trouble with facts, so for Ben Abuyah's benefit here is the source of the population statistics:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00478/table_478352a.jpg

Jonathan Hoffman 28 July, 2010 - 22:39: In 'Delegitimiser 101', they teach them to question every fact that is thrown at them and ask for sources.

(to answer your question …) the point of my comment was to defend ben abuyah against unreasonable criticism of him for making a request necessitated by your own failure …

necessitated particularly because of your track-record of making claims that are not supported by your own sources (and refusing to make any admission or correction)

eg in just the last two weeks, you have published two blog headlines, IHH, Turkish Terror Group to be banned in the USA and Gaza residents want the full blockade re-instated, each of which is contradicted by your own source

and yet you refuse to acknowledge any error …

happygoldfish 21 July, 2010: jon, this is your second headline in 24 hours to be simply wrong

you have still refused to apologise for or correct the other one (Gaza residents want the full blockade re-instated)

is there any chance of your apologising for or correcting this one. or are you reserving your right to put out untruthful headlines in future blogs?

happygoldfish 18 July, 2010: jon, do you work as a sub-editor on the guardian?

sub-editors are skilled at writing headlines that misrepresent or even contradict the article

though i think even the guardian admits mistakes and publishes small-print corrections

ibrows 19 July, 2010: haha Jon will never admit he is wrong …

jon, your record shows that you seem to think that there is nothing wrong in being wrong

your record particularly shows that you are unreliable: your facts need checking when you do provide a source, and so should be viewed with grave suspicion when you don't


mattpryor

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 15:41

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0 points

Does anyone here subscribe to the Times website? I spotted a particularly bizarre comment by a Mr Peter Linthwaite:

Cameron said what had to be said.

Unfortunately the president of the United staes of America cannot say it.

Until he does, israel will use Gaza to support the economy of Southern israel.

To do that israel needs to keep 1.5 million Gazans prisoner and totally reliant on Israeli products produced in israel and paid for by the EU among others at a 20% mark up.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article2661262.ece


DLeigh-Ellis

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 18:17

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0 points

Excellent post there, HG, well done... You hit the figurative nail right on the head.

Jic will never admit it when he is wrong,

The most classic example of this (for which I am still waiting for a response JIC) is found on this thread.
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/the-palestinian-myth-a-view-arab-perspecti...

After posting a highly selective argument, supposedly authoritative as it was compiled by an 'academic.' Cohen failed to respond to any of the challenges I put to him, happy to bask in the ignorance of believing something simply because that is what he wishes to believe. Check the points I put to him (on that thread) at 13.03 on April 5th, (and the fact that he never cared (or was simply unable) to rebutt them.) His willingness to believe as gospel such essays as the one he posted show distinctly and precisely why he is an unreasonable partner for debate. Personally, I find that this manner of discourse all too often stifles and lowers the tone of debate on the JC.

He is too fond of the tactic of hiding away quietly when he realises he has made a slip-up,then not posting anything for a few days until he has a new angle to cry about, hence why his arguments are rarely taken seriously, (except as entertainment.) Granted, others on the JC also do this, but none with as little tact or subtlety as JiC. (I've lost count of the number of times he has referenced my non-existent 'sandles,')


happygoldfish

Thu, 07/29/2010 - 20:35

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0 points

thanks, DLeigh-Ellis

(but your link is to the wrong page … i think you meant this page, and maybe also this. )


Ben Abuyah

Fri, 07/30/2010 - 12:18

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Thank you happygoldfish for your comments.

It's clear that we don't agree on everything, but I respect the fact that you are prepared to engage in sensible civilised debate.

This contrasts with certain people here (they know who they are) who simply resort to calling people they disagree with self-haters, trolls, delegitimisers, scum etc, inciting their murder, and so on.


mattpryor

Fri, 07/30/2010 - 13:06

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0 points

Ben Abuyah: A bit of rough and tumble and name calling is par for the course in any internet discussion on such an emotive subject. I think you've been guilty of it too on plenty of occasions.

On the plus side - at least it's better than Youtube!


Jon_i_Cohen

Fri, 07/30/2010 - 14:27

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-3 points

happygoldfish

29 July, 2010 - 20:35

thanks, DLeigh-Ellis

(but your link is to the wrong page … i think you meant this page, and maybe also this. )

Or perhaps the other page?

Obviously too pre-occupied with his sandals to know what he's on about!


happygoldfish

Fri, 07/30/2010 - 16:29

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2 points

jon, i'd rather read a comment of DLeigh-Ellis in which a link is false than a blog of yours in which the headline is false, and which you refuse even to comment on

once again, you're showing that you seem to think that, for you

happygoldfish: there is nothing wrong in being wrong

jon, as a goldfish i can recognise a duck when i see one

try to quack less about the stones in other people's (non-existent) sandals, and to pay some attention to the water flowing down your own back


DLeigh-Ellis

Wed, 08/04/2010 - 00:31

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0 points

Hey Jon, if you buy me some sandals I promise to wear them when I'm responding to posts on here....

They'd be really nice for the summer too, it's a great deal, we both win, When you called me sandal wearing you would actually be right, which would be a rare treat for you on this website..On the other side, I would get some nice leather sandals... what do you say?

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