We will not be citizens of a fascist state purporting to be Israel

A fascist state?
Methinks they meant Hamastan.

like many oaths, this oath can mean different things to different people

hopefully, no non-jew (applying for citizeznship) would object if he was able to regard it as meaning no more than that israel is demographically (rather than religiously or legally) a primarily jewish state …

this is after all the view of the arab league, which has abandoned the palestinian "right of return" since at least 2002, and stands ready to recognise israel as a demographically jewish state (albeit only within the pre-1967 borders, so far) … see http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm …

… the Arab world commits itself to an AGREED solution to the refugee problem, thus addressing Israel’s concern that the demographic character of the Jewish state not be threatened.

anyway, since they call their declaration "Declaration of Independence from Fascism" and base it on the text of the actual declaration of independence, their complaint may be met by ehud barak's proposed alteration, which will go before the knesset ministerial committee on legislation, adding the words "in the spirit of the declaration of independence"

and that spirit of course includes the words …

"The State of Israel will be based on based on Liberty, Justice and Peace, as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants, irrespective of religion, race or gender; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations".

Would that that were the case, HG. However, Israel's fascist Moldovan Foreign Minister wants to have the Declaration of Independence amendment struck down. What makes this law racist is that it is being demanded of non-Jews, not Jews, who want to become Israeli citizens.

good point, telegramsam, but it's already being dealt with by justice minister yaakov ne'eman, one of the proposers of the bill …

telegramsam: What makes this law racist is that it is being demanded of non-Jews, not Jews, who want to become Israeli citizens.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-10/10/c_13550464.htm …

The bill will now move to the Knesset Ministerial Committee on Legislation for further discussion and is expected to come up for a second vote in two to three weeks

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3967149,00.html …

It was agreed that Barak's alteration would be transferred to a ministerial committee for approval and brought back for a vote in 2-3 weeks. Barak said that those who do not accept the values of the declaration "do not deserve to sit at the government table".

Earlier Justice Minister Yaakov Ne'eman, one of the ministers behind the bill, suggested that in order to avoid charges of racism the new oath would be taken by Jews as well as non-Jews. This suggestion is also to be debated by the committee.

Neeman doesn't want the "spirit of the Declaration of Independence" amendment. The whole Bill just turns Israel's character into a political game, being played by the Moldovan Foreign Minister who is doing so only because he faces corruption charges. You know what they say about patriotism...In Lieberman's case, it's the first resort.

I don't like this bill and I have always regarded Lieberman with suspicion. Everything he does is a provocation or fodder for Israel's enemies.

I don't understand why he is being referred to as Moldovan - he is an Israeli citizen although he may have dual nationality. I don't recall anyone referring to Henry Kissinger as a German Secretary of State. What point is being made here? Lieberman was 20 when he moved to Israel 32 years ago.

The Bill should be amended to include ALL new citizens at the very least. All that is need in any oath is to agree to abide by the laws and the constitution of the new country, just like any existing citizen, regardless of their political, ethnic or religious affiliations.

a Jewish state, as i have commented here previously, is subject to the same criticism that an Islamic state is. Principally that it treats non-Jews as second class citizens and denies them basic rights that would be automatically given if they were Jewish.

A democratic state, an Israel claims to be a democratic state, cannot favour one religious group over others or else it fails to be democratic. Do you know of any other democratic religious states?? Do any other Islamic states treats all their non-Muslim citizens the same as they treat the Muslims?

Israel cannot be both a Jewish and truly democratic state, that treats all its citizens equally, anymore than you can have a truly democratic Islamic state

There is one tzaddik in the sodom that is the Israeli ultra-right. Dan Meridor, the Minister for Intelligence, told Israel radio:

In an interview on Israel Radio, Meridor said that "from the moment a Jewish state was established, and it is an unprecedented historic success, we are obliged to show compassion toward our minorities - the way we have always yearned to be treated by others."

Meridor said that the amendment to the citizenship law was unustified, saying that "sometimes you pay a price when there is a problem to be fixed, but there is no problem. There is no justification for the passing of this law now."

"We are a Jewish state, we are the state for the Jewish people, we wrote this in our basic laws. This is a known and a given fact – that is how we were established by the United Nations," Meridor said, adding the question "do we have to continue repeating these words in relation to every context, when we have already won the historical battle?"

"Lately there has been suggestion, after suggestion, after suggestion meant to send messages to the Arab public - 'this is not yours, this is not your country,' and there are even those who say 'we will soon transfer you to a Palestinian state.' The Arab citizens are constantly reminded that they do not belong, and yet we demand loyalty from them," Meridor added.

Ray, he's a Moldovan because that where he was born and spent his formative years. It's also where he picked up his Soviet attitude towards statehood.

telegramsam: "There is one tzaddik in the sodom that is the Israeli ultra-right" Dan Meridor...etc etc

Dan Meridor is 'ultra-right'??

Nonsense.

Marian, he's a Likudnik, right? From the Herut wing of the party if memory serves, right? He's a member of Israel's government, right? Yep, ultra-right just about does it.

Lieberman's parents fled the Soviet Union - his attitudes are his own. I don't see how this is relevant. Because he was born in the USSR doesn't mean he's default Soviet - what about Sharansky?

Criticise his politics, not his nationality of birth.

Meridor is a Likudnik and, therefore, 'centre-right', I guess.

Ray. as you say yourself, Lieberman was 20 when his parents left the USSR, not some toddler. Plenty old enough to formulate the kind of views he has about loyalty and citizenship.

Actually, telegramsam, if memory serves, the man you call 'ultra-right' left the Likud party in 1998 to become a founder of the Centre party with other Likud party members, and Labour party members.

So nope, 'ultra-right' doesn't just about do it at all.

As I said, it's nonsense.

But he returned to the Likud, didn't he Marian? And he is serving in the current government. Quacks like a duck and waddles like one, too

What simplistic and lazy labelling.

How about Labour members who are serving in this government, or is it only Likud members who are ultra-right? If Meridor is ultra-right, what label do you give Arieh Eldad?

Marian, until and unless they cease being a fig-leaf for Israel's far right, then the Labour ministers, from Braverman to Fuad Ben-Eliezer, are just as bad as the Likudniks, Shasniks and Yizrael Beiteinu(niks).
Eldad? So far to the right that Gengis Khan would have difficulty in seeing him.

Labour may be a fig leaf and Eldad is right wing, but neither of these observations proves that Meridor is 'ultra-right'. Even a modicum of research shows that it is an inaccurate description of him - to the detriment of your own argument.

Do pay attention, Marian, Meridor is a tzaddik in Israel's ultra-right-wing government. That's wot I wrote.

Can we all just get real here for a single solitary moment ?

Lieberman is a fruit loop Moldovan fascist.That he is the very best that Israel can manage as a " foreign minister" makes Israel a laughing stock. Can anyone seriously imagine a civilised country in which he would be even entrusted with the management of a car boot sale ?

Only a country wracked by a pervasive and chronic lack of self confidence and paranoia could enact such a law

Calling Lieberman a Moldovan is offensive. He is an Israeli. Presumably, the people on here who employ that jibe would consider it offensive to refer to an immigrant to Britain who is now a British citizen as (for example) "The Jamaican" or "The Punjabi". The Jews of the former Soviet Empire endure much idiotic prejudice. I know this because I have close friends from the former USSR, now in Australia. They say: "In Russia we were disparaged as 'The Jews' and here we are disparaged as 'The Russians'". They suffer snobbery from people who are themselves at most two generations removed from the shtetl. That they have to endure such sniping from fellow-Jews is shameful. They are wonderful warm people, and it is not their fault that the Soviets did their best to crush the Jewishness out of them.
Ray, full marks to you for your post on this topic to t'sam.

Lieberman is Moldovan. That's where he was born. And that's where he learnt all there is to learn about the Soviet way of loyalty and nationhood.

And he is living proof that there is something dreadfully wrong with the Law of Return.

stephenb, you are the fruitloop. You are obviously pathetically ignorant of the nature of Israeli party politics and coalitions. You are also evidently unaware that Israel faces an existential threat from surrounding "fruitloops". If as a result Israel has become paranoid, no wonder, when there are nutty islamofascist regimes vowing Israel's destruction.

Telegramsam, he is an Israeli. He may not be to your taste, he may be crude of view, blunt of tongue, and resemble the bouncer that I believe he was (and what a fine figure of a man, if I may be so frank!), but he is an Israeli nonetheless.

Nope, he's Moldovan. That's where he was born. And living proof that the Law of Return is more trouble than it's worth.

He's also the first Foreign Minister in Israeli history who appears to be PNG in most countries.

ibrows, you would have a point if all you were doing was criticizng a policy. You do not. Post after post from you is a vitriolic attack against Israel per se, with ne'er a good word about anything. Meanwhile, your silence about palestinian wrongdoing, or from any other Arab entity, is deafening.

That's not "criticism" - it's vilification and delegitimisation. If only you were honest enough to admit it.

Poeple who call Lieberman a Moldovan are utter lefty hypocrites. If I kept referring to a Briton born in Pakistan as a Pakistani, you wouldn't be able to hear beyond the howls of indignation and calls of racism.

telegramsam, you are being hypocritical.

And as for "fascist", I suggest they learn the meaning of the word. Fascist means they take you outside and shoot you. Using it so loosely simply cheapens the word.

Precisely, Amber.

PNG? Had to think there for a second. Where I come from, PNG stands for Papua New Guinea.

If you think so ill of the Law of Return, t'sam, I assume you've done a Michael Rosen and waived the privilege?

PNG is Persona non grata, yvetta

Jonathan youre being a naughty boy again. Time for another slap on the wrist from alan Aziz.

Take them out and shoot them, amb? Yep that's pretty much wot the moldovan and his thugs have said they want to do.

Less of the ad hominem, ta muchly!

Yes, the wheels turned slowly and got me there after the image of pigs on a Borneo bonfire, t'sam!

What ad hom would that be, yvetta? Troll, perhaps.

With all the time we have to spend combating this nonsense in the wider media, I despair at having to do it on the "Jewish Chronicle" web-site.
Are the people posting here Jewish? If they really are, it is truly very sad.
"We are our own worst enemies"

telegramsam, that's "pretty much" what they've said?

Perhaps you can provide the relevant quote about shooting people?

And of course the point I made to you about calling people by their original nationality is completely lost on you. I take it you refer to all UK subjects born overseas by their original nationalities?

amber

This is the JC, I am merely trying to give some of you idealistic, nostalgic lot, a dose of reality, by providing evidence of the Palestinian suffering that you seek to deny.

Plus, I am yet to hear you say anything positive about the Palestinians, or even acknowledge they have basic rights, both within Israel, and the occupied territories. So don't take that tone with me, unless your prepared to fulfil this criteria yourself, and say positive things about the Palestinians and acknowledge they have rights too!

dear god Yvetta has the hots for Lieberman

pass the sick bag Alice

Spammo

Past your bedtime again, and you forgot to take the medication

Poor Jonathan, he got a slap on the wrist from Alan Aziz, so he's rattled and becomes abusive

And Jonathen knows that the only time he can post here is when the JC is closed so he can't be moderated. Poor lad, as Eddie Wareing would have said.

well said ibrows Amber never has anything good to say about the Palestinians presumably because she has never met any? At least in criticizing Israel I have many Israeli friends who totally agree with my views. Open your eyes Amber.

Jon said:
(i.e. Jon_i_Cohen)
With all the time we have to spend combating this nonsense in the wider media, I despair at having to do it on the "Jewish Chronicle" web-site.
Are the people posting here Jewish? If they really are, it is truly very sad.
"We are our own worst enemies"

Jon, I agree with you 100%. I despair, I really do.
But you'll recognise the taunting violinist, who is Jewish, performs in Gaza, and asks repetitive questions such as "Have you ever met any Paledstinians".

Except that he doesn't make that typo.
So, t'sam, waived your own Right of Return?

stephenb makes yet another sexist comment. stephenb, is it possibel for you to address a woman without saying "honey", or referring to her sexuality?

Truly pathetic.

clenevson and ibrows are indignant (I love it!) because I draw attention to their endless and relentless obsession with attacking the Jewish state. I have never seen either of them say a single good word about Israel, and every post is an attack - which is strange, considering this is the Jewish Chronicle, not the Palestinian Chronicle.

ibrows tries the avoidance tactic of saying I do not acknowledge the basic rights of Palestinian Arabs. ibrows, provide one single quote where I said such a thing. Just one will do. Otherwise, I expect you to retract your statement. I don't think anything of the kind, and consequently know I have never said so.

I await your quote...

Who is the taunting violinist? Sounds painful.doesn't I don't really care very much much for violins as they are too squeaky, I imagine a bit like your voice Yvetta.
oh by the way Have you ever met a Palestinian?