Using Bogus "Survivors" to Vilify Israel

You are a disgrace, Hoffman. She is a survivor because we are all survivors. And in claiming otherwise, you have broken the 614th commandment -- you have handed a posthumous victory to the Nazis. For shame. Progressive Zionists leave the ZF now.

If she's passing herself off as - or implying that she was - someone who suffered personally from Nazi brutality, then that's mendacious.
It's along the same lines as an ex-East Ender who now lives in the rustic hills and is an active Quaker - an apostate from Judaism - but finds the fact of their Jewish birth very convenient for one purpose, namely vilifying Israel with the rest of the JfJfP mob.

Using this kind of smear tactics not only reveals the depth of desperation of Israel's megaphones abroad, it is as despicable as Holocaust denial.

Thanks, DLE. Hoffman's post just shows the depth of depravity of some of our "representatives"

Moshe is right, where do you then draw the line of being a Survivor Jonathan, My grandfather and his two brothers were pretty much all that survived from his family, yet although he never went to a 'death camp' i think we could consider the three of them survivors.

Similarly with Hedy Epstein, (who never claimed that she herself was in the camps,) only two of her family survived the shoah.. She has had to live with those memories and experiences her whole life and while she may have never visited Belsen or Treblinka she is still most definitely a survivor. She has worked since involvement in the Doctors Trial in Nuremburg on projects designed to combat the injustices of the holocaust and similar abuses of humanity in the subsequent decades. The Holocaust has dominated and defined her entire life.

You are wrong again Jonathan, she is more of a survivor than you. She has worked throughout her life to oppose degrading treatment of people. You spend your time trying to slander victims of Nazism in the name of a warped Zionist vision. Epstein is not an anti-Zionist, but she is a vocal critic of Israeli reliance upon Militarism, yet to you any criticism of Israel gives license for you to question her entire existence. When will you realise, as I have said before, that criticising an aspect of Israeli policy does not equate to vibrant anti-Israeli sentiment. Similarly, just because she has criticised Israel, does not give someone like you license to write a spiteful little comment on your largely monotonous blog.

And I assume you know that persecution of Jews started long before the beginning of the war in 1939.... Although you cite that date as a reason why we should not listen to this woman. What utter nonsense you continue to come out with....

So come on, call me a troll then....

(post edited)

Out of interest, Jonathan, can you show me an example of criticism of Israeli policy which you don't regard as antisemitic or 'self-hating'?

Off topic but sure - the failure to allow journalists into Gaza during Cast Lead - they should have 'embedded' them.

http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-dra...

- This tells you when criticism crosses the border into antisemitism.

You don't have to censor the word troll... We know what you mean when you miss out an 'o'... And its not swearing Jonathan!

I don't understand why you have so much of a problem with an old lady fighting a humanitarian cause.

I read your link, and it seems that Hedy's speaking tour was the subject of controversy but this was primarily because of a comparison she made between the nazi regime and the treatment of the Palestinians. She made this as a comparison, not a statement of fact. To compare the Holocaust with a later (and longer) subjugation of another semetic people is not a huge stretch of imagination. As I have said before, even if the tenacity of the Holocaust was worse, the question of institutionalised discrimination between two races in a nation-state is clearly relevent, thus the COMPARISON is possible.

I understand that according to your definition any comparison of Israel to the Nazi's is anti-semetic, but unfortunately I find it difficult to agree whilst Israel holds the Palestinians in a limbo between self-determination and accepted full citizenship in Israel.

Ultimately I agree with you, The Palestinian people are not victims of Nazism, however, like the Jews under Nazism we see a sustained targeting of a civilian population (that happens to be a minority) by a dedicated, modern war machine. Furthermore, like apartheid we see an annexed portion of the population prevented from free movement by barriers and stringent controls at checkpoints, (obviously due to Egypt also,) rather like the ghettoisation of Europe and segregation in South Africa.

I agree, it is not Nazism and it is not Apartheid.... But comparisons are possible. To suggest that such comparisons would be anti-semitic is even more absurd. I can only imagine people fear such claims as they fear they would minimise the protracted scope of the Holocaust, however what they actually do is to reinforce the notion that prejudice is as much a problem today as it was in the forties. And as such it still needs to be fought. As such, vilifying those such as Epstein who are actively working to find a route to peace is a petty and disruptive activity.

It says on Hedy's own website and in that wikipedia article that she arrived by Kindertransport before the war, yet you make it seem as if she has hidden that fact. Which she has attempted to do....

It does not matter if the Yad Vashem definition of survivor would not include her, her entire life's work has been dominated by those early formative years... Her entire morality is based on that moment of being forced to leave her home at such an early age.... Therefore, her humanitarian work since has been wholehearted and continuous. She may not have survived the death camps, but due to the fact that she has brought a message of learning, tolerance and progression from her experiences under Nazism, she can be considered a survivor... Ultimately, she survived and she brought the lessons she learnt to help educate a new generation. I find it disgusting that you would attempt to slander her history and the memory of her relatives simply because you dont like her politics.

"I understand that according to your definition any comparison of Israel to the Nazi's is anti-semetic"

It's not my definition that makes Israel/Nazi comparisons antisemitic - why are you so utterly obtuse? - it's the EUMC definition:

"Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self­determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."

http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-dra...

Do you argue with other definitions too - like the definition of one foot as 12 inches?

So, basically, Hoffman, with this disgraceful smear about Hedy Epstein, you prove you are a Holocaust revisionist.

anti-semetic?
I've only ever seen that spelling on general sites from non-Jews!

Tsk, tsk. I suspect that if Jonathan declared in a blog that the Earth is round, some people would argue that it's flat!

Bennett/Bennet - the tr^ll who can't spell his name but insists it is genuine but cannot cite a link to prove it - the tr^ll who therefore cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything.

Sorry Yvetta, obviously my spelling mistake makes clear my religious persuasion.

Some poepel leik too paye to mych attenshun to a singel errer and choooose nut too lisen to the poynt i mayde.

Would me not being a Jew then mean I wasn't worth listening too Yvetta?
____

I only argue with definitions when I believe them to be leading or politically charged Jonathan. By your definition I was speaking for the sake of argument and referring to the definition that YOU had cited. I therefore felt it was safe to assume that you agreed with it.

I'm not being obtuse Jonathan, just disagreeing with you... I know you are sometimes unsure of how to deal with that...

You must have been tremendously indulged as a child.

Now, care to respond to any of my points or just ignore the challenge as usual? Perhaps you could tell me why such comparisons are wrong, rather than just showering me with the rules themselves. I would also point out that the only definition i disagreed with was the 'comparison to nazism issue,' I did not disagree with the other assertions. So no, unlike you assume I do not automatically disagree with definitions, just those which I believe do nothing to help the situation.

It is not xenophobic to compare Russian, Chinese or American political authoritarianism with aspects of Nazi practice, so why is it anti-semitic to compare Israeli militarism against a civilian population as such? You talk about double standards yet you do not see the disparity in the rules between stating that it is anti-semitic to associate all Jews with the actions of Israel when you simultaneously declaim any anti-Israel charge as automatically anti-semitic.

It can't work both ways!

I honestly don't know why Hoffman has a problem with names. After all, at the Orwellian Cifwatch, where he stars as Hawkeye (among others), it says: “Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.” He can't have it both ways -- even as a revisionist.

L-E: It is not me who is 'disgusting' - it is a refugee who claims to be a survivor (and those who exploit her) for the sole purpose of giving added credibility to her antisemitic comparison of Israel with Nazism.

That is truly disgusting - your moral compass appears to have inverted.

I can only quote Kindertransport member Hermann Hirschberger: "The comparison of Israel with Nazism is odious, whoever makes it".

Hoffman you keep on digging boyo. Everyone can see your Holocaust revisionism. No wonder the Progressive Zionists are pulling out of the ZF.

All the information about Hedy is available on her website and she has not 'claimed' to be anything other than what she is. It is people like you who have defined her as such. If you have an issue with how her supporters have defined her, take it up with them... but don't resort to this boorish, low-brow behaviour.

My moral compass is just peachy, your desire to slander a humanitarian aid worker is more questionable.

Funny how you will happily use a kindertransport member to support your own POV- eh Jonathan??

L-E: If you cannot see that it is antisemitic to compare Israel to Nazism then I'm afraid you have crossed the line into moral oblivion and there is nothing I can do for you - any more than I can explain the colour 'red' to someone who is colour-blind.

If anyone's crossed into moral oblivion, it's someone who resorts to Holocaust revisionism to smear a Jew with whom he disagrees.

A colour blind person still sees red, the mind just interprets it differently,

so just say, 'the colour you see when you look at a strawberry or London bus.'

Your attitude explains a lot about you, the blind assumption that what you 'see' is automatically what is 'real.'

I didn't realise I was in moral oblivion until now but I guess I will just have to find my own way through these murky depths alone. Woe is me !!! How will I cope without your guidance Jonathan>?

Tzarfarti; "No wonder the Progressive Zionists are pulling out of the ZF"

Lier --- but that won't surprise anyone

Hoffman, first, learn how to spell. Second, the Progressives -- Reform and Liberal Jews, who believe that Israel should be a democratic Jewish state and a state for all its citizens (check it out, it's in their declarations) -- have had enough of the drift towards the far right pro-settler exclusionism that you represent at the ZF. That's why they are setting up their own pro-Israel, pro-peace organisation, not one that takes its orders from the Yisrael Beiteinu-run Israeli Foreign Ministry. And not a moment too soon.

DLE, it's just that that spelling always makes me flinch, 'cos it reminds me of the pronunciation antiseemeetism some people use, which always strikes me as odd.
Anyway, Baroness Tonge, as reported in the JC, would appear to be crossing the line:
She said: “The way Israel behaves is just not kosher. Jewish people should be totally ashamed of themselves that they are not doing more to stop them. It’s absolutely disgusting.”

I can see why one could be offended by such a statement although it seems fairly reasonable to me.

Im guessing that Jonathan is done with this thread. Once again he loudly slandered his opponent (accusing me of crossing the line into moral oblivion) and since has gone strangely quiet as arguments against his POV have begun to emerge.

You asked me to state why she is not an anti-Zionist. Simply, Zionism was originally about freedom from oppression. Whilst it was an ideology that based itself in Jewish circles, its basic message of freedom and national self-determination is universal. Thus Hedy's attempts to secure such rights for those whom the Zionist state conveniantly forgot about cannot be construed as anti-zionist. Zionism is about Jewish self-determination and not subjugation of the surrounding people. One can support the State of Israel alongside a desire for Palestinian autonomy. There is no contradiction.

Will you retract your bitter assault on the life and work of Hedy Epstein, Jonathan>?

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/01/07/the-sad-case-of-hedy-epstein/

More here - including Epstein's connection with the organisation 'Deir Yassin Remembered'

Yes, Jonathan, I see you were vilified quite a lot in that posting, including by David T and by Joe Millis, formerly of this parish, who wrote

Jonathan and others, I am really uncomfortable with this delving into whether she is a survivor or a refugee. First, it could be argued that by delving into this kind of debate we are playing the same game as those who wish to vilify Israel by using Holocaust symbolism and terminology. Second, where is the line drawn between those who argue over the survivor/refugee terminology and revisionism? I’m not saying it is revisionism, but some could make the argument.
Third, I am not sure if you have heard it, but Yehuda Poliker, the Israeli rock singer, has an album called Avak ve’afar (Dust and Ashes), which is basically about his feelings as a survivor son of Holocaust survivors (his parents were transported from Salonika to the camps). He was born and raised in Haifa, but he refers to himself as a survivor and is a member of an organisation of second-generation survivors. If you can manage the Hebrew, the album — like all of his oeuvre — is well worth a listen.

and

Come on guys, this is gutter blogging. She is a survivor inasmuch as she got out before the knock on the door and inasmuch as her parents and other family members perished in Auschwitz. This kind of blogging ill behoves those who are trying to put forward a cogent case for Israel. It lets all kind of nut-jobs, like Jews sans Frontiers IJV, JfJfP, etc, to p[aint us all as heartless extremists. We need to use our brains more, not our emotions.

Jonathan, you appear to still be missing the point. Independent of what any other bloggers have said, your problem with Hedy Epstein is rooted in her politics rather than her Holocaust experiences. In the same manner that those you criticise as using her experience to support their cause you have challenged her relation to the genocide in order to damn her politics.

This is all about politics Jonathan, I'm sure if she was an unquestioning Zionist like yourself you would have very little to say about her experiences in the war.

@Troll

Lier

There is no critical comment by David T in that thread.

He miscited it, the comments are still there Jonathan.

Just looked at Harry's Place, Moshe's right, Hoffman was quite correctly vilified left, right and centre for his disgraceful post. Here's another vilification from Lev.

Jonathan Hoffmann is one of these idiots who sets himself up as an arbiter for who’s a “real” survivor. He should keep his mouth shut. My grandfather fled Poland to the USSR shortly after the Nazi invasion but before they started persecuting the Jews. He almost died from starvation and typhoid fever in one of Stalin’s gulags. 85 members of his family perished in the gas chambers. When he returned to Poland just after the war ended he was almost lynched by Poles. Is he survivor enough for you, Jonathan? You creep.
Wrong spelling of Hoffman, but the right sentiments.

Aha ...... the cybermobsters are out in force including the lier 'gordon bennett' / 'gordon bennet' who claims it is his real name but cannot provide a URL where he is cited ...

So, Hoffman, you don't deny that you were vilified by more people than those in your usual coterie of potty-mouthed supporters. Oh, and learn how to spell, will you?

1. McCarthyite Troll to cybervictim: "You are a thief"

2. Victim does not deny it, because it is an outrageous, totally unfounded allegation

3. McCarthyite Troll: "You didn't provide evidence that you are not a thief - so it must be true"

@Moderators: Solution: Ban this McCarthyite Troll

Would these be the same, apparently nonexistant moderators whom you ridiculed when I suggested they take a look at some of your own comments?

Err.. Hoffman...demanding the banning of someone you don't agree with is, erm, McCarthyism. Oh and I wouldn't want you banned, because the free market of ideas just shows how ridiculous your position is. And everyone is free to see the abusive nature of your responses. As theedgeofwhere said, it doesn't paint the ZF in a good light.

'whom you ridiculed'

- another lie

You are free, Hoffman, to cast aspersions on whomever. But you did ridicule the moderators over allowing, ahem, Vortigern, to post. Funny how he disappeared after it was pointed out that no self-respecting fascist would name himself after a failed king or ship that was sunk by the Nazis in 1943.

'whom you ridiculed,' well... granted it wasn't very witty or interesting, but, what you said was....

''The Troll has summoned the lynch-mob.

"The JC Moderators!" - I am trembling with fear...''

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/another-billet-doux-camel-corps-retd#comme...

So not entirely a lie Jonathan....

Even Amira Hass, no friend of Israel's was careful in her commentary on this issue not to call Hedy Epstein a "survivor".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1141085.html

"The older activists included Hedy Epstein, 85, a German-born American citizen whose life was saved when her Jewish parents sent her to England when she was 14. They later perished in Auschwitz. "

Jonathan is correct to be accurate, and when even a died-in-the-wool Israel hater like Hass makes this distinction, its good enough for me.

Ah, AKUS, I see the giyyus is on to defend the indefensible and quite frankly despicable revisionist-like attack on a holocaust survivor just because you disagree with her politics.