Untermensch.

How dare you focus exclusively on an Israeli soldier newsmax, you are an Israel hating anti-semite. Why don't you post a video of a Hamas or Hezbollah fighter humiliating a blind folded Israeli women?

I felt really stupid writing this, but I wanted to put myself into amber's & JH's shoes.

Very good Zair! For a moment I thought you had secumbed to the trivial level of JH's and Amber's discourse!

Next time you may want to add a few lines about Syria and Iran.

On the subject of IOF soldiers, can you imagine the level of indignation if indeed the roles were reversed and a Palestinian danced around a blindfolded and trussed israeli? (

Let's see who is first to denounce this video as a fake and just another example of 'Pallywood'?

Cheers newsmax!

On a serious note, this is sadly what really happens on a day to day basis to Palestinians.

Wouldn't it be great if the usual suspects just came out and condemned this type of behaviour, no ifs or buts, just simple condemnation.

Any takers?

Firstly, the guy is clearly a dickhead and this is not an acceptable way to treat detainees.

On the other hand, the US has treated POWs in far worse ways in Iraq. Remember Abu Garaib? And we in Britain also have cause to hang our heads in shame at the treatment of some detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The most important thing to me, however, is that this says something about the free and open nature of the Israeli press that this was broadcast on an Israel TV channel, and I imagine most Israelis watching this will be highly embarrassed and it will be taken very seriously by the authorities. Probably more so than in any other country on Earth.

Can you say the same about the PA or Hamas, or Jordan, or Lebanon, or Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Yemen, all of whom (we know) treat their detainees far, far worse than either Israel, the US or Britain?

newsmax, why have you supplied a link to an italian web-page that we can't read, instead of to the original haaretz article (of yesterday) at http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/youtube-clip-shows-idf-sol... ?

is it because you don't want us to read that the idf take this offence very seriously …

The IDF's internal investigation department ordered an immediate probe into the matter after the Ch. 10 television program Tzinor Laila caught wind of the clip on the internet.
…
A number of IDF soldiers have over the last year faced investigation and penalty for documenting themselves performing questionable acts in front of Palestinian prisoners or while on patrol.
…

and aren't you being dehumanising by describing soldiers as "IOF" instead of "IDF"?

and being racist by using the deplorable acts of one israeli (ok, a small number of israelis, all of whom have been prosecuted by the idf) to stigmatise a whole nation? …

newsmax: As if further evidence was needed of Israel's intent?

holocaust comparison alert

and of course using the blog-title ("Untermensch.") to imply that the israelis are as bad as the nazis were?

I told you it wouldn't take long for someone to mention Syria and Iran!

Mind you, at least they are 'embarrassed'.

So, to recap:

1) Israel treats detainees on the whole better than the US or Britain does. The worst excess newsmax can dredge up is of an IDF soldier dancing around a blindfolded woman. It's not like she's been stripped an put in a human pyramid and had dogs set on her.

2) Britain and the US treat detainees far better than ALL Arab regimes and terrorist militias. No secret underground torture chambers, no raping men with broken bottles, no whipping with electric cables, no throwing off rooftops, no kneecappings (although we do allegedly occasionally send people off to other countries for that sort of thing)

3) As HGF mentions above, the IDF is treating this very seriously - so Israel is also capable and willing to police its own soldiers' behaviour.

4) Thank you for proving once again that the IDF is the most moral army in the world.

is it because you don't want us to read that the idf take this offence very seriously …

You mean like the IOF took the deaths of Tom Hurndall, Rachel Corrie, James Miller, Nazih Darwazeh, Fadel Shana . . . . . . . very seriously.

Not to mention the 9 Turkish activists.

'On the other hand, the US has treated POWs in far worse ways in Iraq. Remember Abu Garaib? And we in Britain also have cause to hang our heads in shame at the treatment of some detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan.'

Nice bit of whataboutery by mattpryor there.

come off it, newsmax, you chose to make something of this topic (idf humiliation by video)

and you have no intention of admitting that this topic is undoubtedly taken seriously by the idf

let's face it, you wanted an excuse to make a holocaust comparison, and in hindsight (to quote mattpryor), all this topic does is stengthen the case that the idf is the most moral army in the world

You two are as bad as Jon-i-Cohen.
Happy, leave it, leave it, they're notworfit.

Well who do you want to compare them to Zair?

You gleefully slag off this guy's behaviour, but think it's irrelevant that even our own soldiers have behaved worse?

Dancing around a blindfolded woman is disrespectful, publishing the video on the internet is extremely stupid, and I would hope that the IDF punishes the person involved and this sort of behaviour gets stamped out, just as I would expect the British armed forces to do the same.

What more do you want?

I find the use of the word Untermensch disgusting.
This Jew-baiting word, with its Nazi overtones, should not be tolerated by the moderator - it is distressing to our people.

newsmax
zaire

you are jew hating reptiles, slither back to the bottom of the pond from whence you came.

Whence you came, Jonathan, not from whence. Grammar, please.

and reptiles don't come from the bottom of ponds!

PS what exactly is "Israel's intent" based on this video?

To get onto Strictly Come Dancing?

All the war crime apologists make 'funny' remarks regarding the video. Or get distressed by the use of the term 'untermensch'.

But not by the video itself.

So to recap: The blindfolded person is a woman. Her hands are bound. She is being derided and laughed at by armed soldiers. She lives in a land that is occupied and is subject to incursions and illegal settlements. Hundreds of her compatriots are killed by the IOF with impunity and without any one being called to justice.

The intent is to dehumanise and humiliate a group of people beacuse of their ethnicity / religion. It has permeated so far into israeli society that the deaths of thousands of Palestinains is only questioned by the few and by the international community.

Who is she newsmax, and why is she in prison? I presume it wasn't because she was dressed too immodestly or riding on the back of a motorbike, or smoking a water pipe?

Care to share that information? Do you know? I'm guessing not.

newsmax: "The intent is to dehumanise and humiliate a group of people beacuse of their ethnicity / religion."

Sorry - are we talking about the intent of your post?

Or are you suggesting that this behaviour is encouraged by the IDF?

mattpryor
'You gleefully slag off this guy's behaviour, but think it's irrelevant that even our own soldiers have behaved worse?'

Err the OP was about an IOF soldier.......

All the apologists for war crimes seem to be getting upset about certain words.

But they don't seem to get upset about the video and the fact that it is just another in series of videos and photos (or Facebook pages) of mistreatment of Palestinians.

But the rights of Palestinians don't really come into it for the war crime apologists.

Who is she newsmax, and why is she in prison?

We don't know. because she, a woman, is blindfolded and anonymous. Without rights, her dignity taken away from her.

That's the point. The IOF blindfold women, old men (remember those Facebook pictures?) to dehumanise them, the demonstrate the power they have over them, to humiliate them. 'Them', as Newsmax correctly emphasised, being untermensch.

Is this really Jewish Chronicle website?
I am shocked that Jewish newspaper allows it website to be employed by anti-Israel propaganda.
Does no person from the office moniter it?
i am browsing over from France for information from UK.

Francoise:

It's not propoganda. The video that started this discourse is truth.

And what makes you think that your opinion is correct? You can't ban an opinion becuase you disagree with it. we all know what lies at the end of that road.

And, of course, being jewish does not necessarily make one a supporter of the occupation and all that it entails.

Francoise:

Here it is again:

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/10_ottobre_05/ballo-soldato-israeliano_730...

Another Italian news agency this time. The Italians seem pretty shocked by this.

Shame Francoise the French person can't spell Françoise. Funny, that…

Some more 'propoganda' for you Francoise:

This time from The Telegraph.(A right of centre British newspaper)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthorit...

Yours is a fair question, Francoise, to which the JC is evidently unwilling to provide an answer.
I asked a similar question myself on a blog a couple of days ago.
The blog was peremptorily closed.

this guys an absolute disgrace he should be confined to base for 35 days that will teach him

No way 36 days at least and take away his ipod..........ok taking away the ipod might be a bit too harsh.

What we really need to find a punishment that is equivalent to another non Israeli army so that we don't get accused of being anti-semitic. I wonder what Hamas, Hezbullah Iran or Syria would do to a grunt performing similar actions?

Has the JC been acquired by the Guardian Media Group?
I expect to encounter this antisemitic/and or Israel-delegtimising propaganda there - but to have it thrust at me daily on the JC is becoming hard to bear.

Yvetta:

"to have it thrust at me daily on the JC is becoming hard to bear."

I suspect that's the point of their posts.

newsmax and yankeeuxb, even if publishing such deplorable videos is a war crime, nobody here has made excuses for it, so why are you both referring to "war crime apologists"?

newsmax: All the war crime apologists make 'funny' remarks regarding the video. Or get distressed by the use of the term 'untermensch'.
But not by the video itself.

yankeeuxb: All the apologists for war crimes seem to be getting upset about certain words.
But they don't seem to get upset about the video and the fact that it is just another in series of videos and photos (or Facebook pages) of mistreatment of Palestinians.

deliberate racism by making comparison between israel and the nazis is more serious than these deplorable videos

newsmax has already titled a blog "Ethnic Cleansing" when the blog itself showed no such thing, and now he titles one "Untermensch."; and yankeeuxb repeats that, describing the idf as treating palestinian women and old men as "being untermensch"

holocaust comparison is very serious, and both of you are trying to draw attention away from that

this whole blog (since its purported subject shows idf disciplinary procedure in a good light) has no apparent purpose other than to make a holocaust comparison

Francoise

I agree. It is absurd that outright antisemites are given a voice on the JC blogs - or anywhere for that matter.

Anyone at the JC listening?

There are good days and bad days, and today has been a bad day :(

Remind me to pop onto some Muslim forums and make posts about every atrocity done in the name of Islam one of these days.

Oh no, I remember - I wouldn't do that because I'm not a poisonous shit head.

Amber, their silence really takes the biscuit.

your speakin of biscuits has gone and gotten me hungry. how am i gonna lose the final 4 lbs an get my ear ring if i keep reading these blogs

what would be your ideal " good day" matt ? and keep it clean this is a family blog

stephenb is a racist. He must go.

The term "IOF" is being tolerated on the JC blogs. This is an ansult to every member of the IDF who has died defending Israel since 1948. There are British Jewish families, whose children have served in the IDF, and who have been killed or held hostage.

That the JC tolerates this term is outrageous. Something must be done. If the ISM were banned, why are people using the term IOF given free reign?

Absurd - and disgusting.

newsmax, t does this silly little post prove exactly? That out of 150,000 members of the IF, there exists an insensitive idiot?

Who'd a thunk it? I mean seriously, what is your point? That as a consequence, the entire Jewish state should be delegitimised and destroyed?

In case you didn't notice, there was a case recently where several British soldiers did far worse when serving in Iraq - so obviously, the UK should be delegitimised and destroyed as well.

Of course, every member of every Arab armed forces is well versed on sensitivity, cultural awareness and human rights.

Hypocrite.

Yvetta, why are they silent? What are they scared of?

yankeeuxb, after your display a few days ago when a journalist at the JC commented that the entire premise of your post was utter garbage, because you had failed to understand the caption, it is amazing that you feel anyone could take you seriously. i mean, we were laughing at you.

What are they scared of, Amber?

It would certainly not appear to be their own good reputation going down in ruins for their failure to remove obvious antisemitism from their blogs.

What do they mean by IOF?

I ask because I'm assuming the person who moderates threse blogs equates it with the Independent Order of Foresters, and that is the reason it is tolerated.

Ms or Mr Moderator, open your eyes and ears.

There is no doubt that this kind of behaviour is hideous and totally reprehensible. The young lady would be obviously terrified and be in fear of her life.

My only hope is that this sadistic moron is recognised, caught and punished, a long with the camera man and any other bystander egging on and having 'laugh' at her expense.

War, combat, and lots of related armed forces activity can and does often brutalise both soldiers and non-combatants. I also feel that the armed forces, like lots of organisations can attract and or give cover to sadists and sociopathic behaviour. They feel that they carry out,(and sometimes get away with carrying out), wicked activity with impunity.

I can't speak for all armed forces, but my experience of the IDF and British Forces has been that the overwhelming majority of soldiers are kind, respectful, friendly and in a weird twist, peace loving, given that they know exactly the consequences of war and killing.

The problem of callousness, cruel and merciless behaviour is that it can become 'institutional' within some groups, especially if the leadership is thus and the smaller sections and patrols are isolated from scrutiny.

Some punishments metered out by the IDF that I personally know of have been:
Case 1: Soldier #1 & #2: seven year prison sentence each for beating a Palestinian. Reduced to five years. Mitigation: they claimed to have witnessed the man beating his pregnant wife - verified on investigation. Soldier #1's wife was also pregnant at the time and apparently he went ballistic and soldier #2, after initially helping him, had to pull #1 off of the victim because he thought the victim would be killed.

Case 2: Soldier #3: four years for firing indiscriminately towards a crowd, wounding one victim. Mitigation: cornered, fear for life. Mitigation disallowed, as his commanding officer and other soldiers in the vicinity.

Case 3: Soldier #4: two years for humiliation and intimidation of non-combatants. No mitigation. This particular soldier ended up for a long spell in psychiatric hospital, which begs the question how he got through the recruitment process and put into active service as opposed to a desk job.

Yvetta, it stands for Israel Occupation Forces (note they always write "Occupation" with a capital "O" to equate it with other events like "Holocaust" with a capital "H").

So every member of the IDF who has died defending Israel since 1948, and their families, is insulted. We don't call the British armed forces, the British Occupation Forces - unless someone is demented with hatred.

Moderators, please ban the use of the term IOF. It is reprehensible.

newsmax, I'll ask again, what does this silly little post prove exactly? That there is an idiot in an army of 150,000?

Yvetta, the term "IOF" is the one habitually used on Israel bashing and antisemitic websites - which shows that our hateful friends here are visitors to such sites.