The vile-tasting poison of the Tribe of Theobald


By Yvetta
July 19, 2010
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Sniffing around a certain Palestine Solidarity Campaign website, I found this Israel- and Jewry-vilifying piece from one of the Theobald Jews, whose forename is shared by a certain kidnapped soldier, reacting to the findings of that online survey of UK Jews reported in the current JC. (If you do nothing else, look at the final few paragraphs, but grab a sickbag first):

The Jewish community in Britain seems to be over the moon. A survey that was published a few days ago suggests that British Jews are nothing but “peace lovers”. The Guardian newspaper was also quick to report that 77 per cent of “British Jews favour a 'two-state solution' in Israel”.
In practice, this actually means that at least 77 per cent of British Jews believe that millions of dispossessed Palestinians should continue to dwell in refugee camps and never be allowed to return to their homes, cities and villages. I am actually far from impressed with British Jewry’s inclination towards peace.
Seven out of 10 UK Jews support Israeli war crimes in Gaza
Professor Dan McGowan pointed out recently that Israel and Palestine are in fact “one country with one water system, one electrical grid, one monetary system, one telephone system and one postal system. It is already one state, although half the population has lesser rights or none at all.” Bearing McGowan’s insight, I wonder what drives 77 per cent of British Jews? Why don’t they really welcome Palestinian people to return to their land and enjoy exactly the same civil rights British Jews celebrate in the UK?
But a further question must be raised here. What is it that qualifies British Jews or any other Diaspora Jews to interfere or engage so closely with the fate of millions of Palestinians?
As it happens, the survey provides us with more devastating news. At the time of Israel’s Operation Cast Lead against the Gaza Strip in 2008-09, we were shocked to discover that 94 per cent of Israelis supported the Israeli armed forces’ murderous tactics in the Strip. As this new survey clearly reveals, the lack of ethics in British Jewry is far more concerning. Eighteen months after the massacre in Gaza and a year after the UN fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict found Israel guilty of numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity, nearly three quarters (72 per cent) of British Jews agreed that Israel's action in Gaza in 2008 and 2009 was "a legitimate act of self-defence". I believe that in practice this means that seven out of 10 British Jews support Israeli war crimes and somehow dismiss the finding of the UN fact-finding mission. This is pretty scary.
The study, which was carried out by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research, (JPR) found that Jews in Britain strongly identify with Israel, with nine out of 10 having visited the country. JPR's executive director, Jonathan Boyd, said: "Fundamentally, we found that most Jews feel a strong sense of connection to Israel, and for many it forms an important and even central part of their Jewish identity.”
“…the notion that in Britain there is a minority community, the overwhelming majority of which supports war crimes, is pretty shocking, especially considering the devastating fact that every political party in this country is bankrolled by different shades of the ‘Friends of Israel’.”
For many years I have argued that within the Jewish secular discourse there is no ideological or spiritual dichotomy between the Israeli, the Jew and the Zionist. It is probably impossible to determine where the Zionist ends and the Jew starts. And yet, the notion that in Britain there is a minority community, the overwhelming majority of which supports war crimes, is pretty shocking, especially considering the devastating fact that every political party in this country is bankrolled by different shades of the “Friends of Israel”.
I wonder how the British public would react if they find out that 72 per cent of the Muslim community supported the killings in Mumbai, 7/7 or 9/11. I guess that we all know the answer.
Note: In comparison, please review the key findings from a 2007 survey by the centre-right think tank, Policy Exchange, of more than 1,000 Muslims living across the UK. It reveals an image of a real pluralist and liberal community. Only '7 per cent admire organizations like Al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West. Thirteen per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds agreed with this statement compared with three per cent of over-55s.
Among the 2007 survey’s findings was that “36 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19 per cent of over-55s". And yet, this is still far less alarming than the relentless attempt of Zionists to silence every Jewish convert to universalism or humanism.

COMMENTS

DeborahMaccoby

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 10:46

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Yvetta, as soon as you mentioned the forename I realised it must be Gilad Atzmon, and reading the article of course confirmed this.....but where is the link to "a certain Palestinian Solidarity Campaign website?" I am sure it cannot be the official PSC website. PSC recognises that Atzmon is an antisemite and has no association with him. I would very much like to know the website to which you are referring and to have the link.

Also, what do you mean by "the Theobald Jews"?

Many thanks,

Deborah


Yvetta

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:02

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2 points

Hi, Debbie. Thanks for the reassurance.
I found it as a link on this website:
readingpsc.org.uk/g2k/aber/

Theobald Jews are those who betray their own people, as did a certain Theobald in early medieval England; I first encountered the term on CiF Watch.


Yvetta

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:03

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Sorry - Deborah. I've no idea whether you're a Debbie - and Deborah is a lovely name.


DeborahMaccoby

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:13

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I'm generally called Deborah but don't mind being called Debbie.....

I've checked out the link and see it is not actually an article on the Reading PSC website, but they link to it on the Redress website.

http://www.redress.cc/zionism/gatzmon20100717

Redress is well known to be antisemitic and it is disturbing that Reading PSC are linking to it. This is certainly not official PSC policy.I will contact Reading PSC and point this out to them.

best wishes,

Deborah


Yvetta

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:24

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Thanks, Deborah.
It rather looked to me as if the Aberystwyth branch was responsible - they seem to be affiliated in some sense to the Reading group.


raycook

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:32

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Yvetta, for the good of your health and sanity, I beg you not to read any more trash like this.

It is so outrageously disingenuous and mendacious in every syllable that it wouldn't even get an E grade at the SOAS (lol)

It is interesting that 'Theobald' is thought to come from Ango-Saxon meaning Brave People. Having studied Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse I'd offer a different interpretation: 'Unashamed, unprincipled, chutzpadik, lying b**d' - this is from a little known western dialect of germano-semitic.


Yvetta

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:54

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That's what 'im at 'ome tells me, Ray. I mean, not to waste time reading such 'trash'. (He wouldn't know Beowulf from the Wife of Bath, and doesn't read Old Norse!)


raycook

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 13:35

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Wife of Bath - that's Chaucer, so Middle English, of course.

;-)


Harvey

Mon, 07/19/2010 - 21:31

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Yvetta

You are probably unaware but you have been engaging with just such a Theobald Jewess . Maccoby is right up there with Deborah Fink [What is it with Deborahs] Both see fit to villify and demonise Israel at every turn .They give succour to groups like Palestinian Solidarity who deny Israels right to self determination They are nothing more then propoganda tools ready to be wheeled out as examples of ' Good Jews ' by the fascists they support .


DeborahMaccoby

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 11:39

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I have now had this response from Reading PSC re my query (below). I have written back to suggest that they consider not linking to Redress at all any more.

They have also written to me again to say that they have now added the Tony Lerman article about the JPR survey to their website.

I will answer Harvey in my next comment.

Deborah

CORRESPONDENCE WITH READING PSC

Hi Deborah,

Thanks for getting in touch.

The Redress links that appear on the site are automatically generated by an RSS feed from the Redress website - the same is true for the Electronic Intifada links that appear.

As with any feed-based content creation, we will always run into issues of another site's content conflicting with our position. To this end we have a standard disclaimer on all pages of the site:

Content Disclaimer
The linked articles and RSS feeds included on this site are those of their individual authors, and do not necessarily represent the views of Reading PSC. Reading PSC makes no representation concerning the views expressed, and does not guarantee the source, originality, accuracy, completeness or reliability of any statement, information, data, finding, interpretation, advice, opinion, or view presented.

I will contact Redress informing them of the issue you have raised and I suggest you make a comment directly to Redress' (unfortunately they do not have a comments feature).

We will be posting a blog entry linking to this Guardian article shortly, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/16/survey-jews-britain-... -- you could make a comment on that posting also.

Best regards,
Rakesh.
Reading PSC

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Deborah Maccoby wrote:

Message body:
Dear Reading PSC organisers,

I am surprised and very troubled to see that you are linking to an article by Gilad Atzmon on the Redress website:

http://readingpsc.org.uk/g2k/aber/

The link is on the right hand side (scroll down): "British Jews support Israeli war crimes". In typical Atzmon fashion, Jews and Israel are seen as identical. Atzmon has been exposed over and over again as an antisemite, and Redress, which publishes his articles, is known as a dodgy website.

I know it is often difficult to spot antisemitism, because the Jewish establishment cries wolf so often, but he really is a wolf. Look at this from the Socialist Worker in the USA:

http://socialistworker.org/2010/07/15/gilad-atzmons-anti-semitic-beliefs
Gilad Atzmon's anti-Semitic beliefs

Since PSC has said it is opposed to antisemitism, I really do think you need to rethink your policy on this. Antisemitism does not help the Palestinian cause. This link has been picked up on a JC blog and is being used to tarnish the whole Palestinian Solidarity Campaign.

all the best,

Deborah Maccoby,


DeborahMaccoby

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 11:51

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Dear Harvey,

PSC officially supports a two-state solution, so cannot be said to "deny Israel's right to self-determination" -it just thinks the Palestinians have a right to self-determination as well.

I am on the Executive of Jews for Justice for Palestinians. Really it is so laughable that we are associated with this mediaeval Theobald who accused Jews of being responsible for killing Christian children that it seems almost not worth bothering with, but I suppose I should say something.

We oppose antisemitism wherever it raises its ugly head (as in the case of Gilad Atzmon). Unfortunately our task is made more difficult by the constant crying wolf of the Jewish establishment -for instance, calling Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter, and in the latest case, the authors of the Methodist Report, antisemitic. The point of the crying wolf story is that, when a real wolf turned up, no-one believed the boy who had so often falsely claimed he was being attacked by a wolf.
And it has proved difficult at times to convince people that Gilad Atzmon is antisemitic, though I believe we are now making a lot of headway, especially after the American Socialist Worker piece:

http://socialistworker.org/2010/07/15/gilad-atzmons-anti-semitic-beliefs

So, Harvey, my point is: you are making our work more difficult with your false claims about antisemitism and your accusations that people like JfJfP are "Theobald Jews" - all in order to deflect criticism of Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people.

best wishes,

Deborah


Jon_i_Cohen

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 13:36

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DeborahMaccoby
I am sure that Harvey will reply for himself.

But pray do tell, what does the PSC support, what is your two-state solution, is it a Hamastan for Haniyeh in Gaza and a Fatahstan for Abbas in Judea and Samaria?

And Israel? where do you suggest it goes?

"From the River to the sea, Palestine will be free", is this your mantra?

Why don't you start an organisation called JFJFJ - Jews for Justice For Jews.
Don't the Palestinians have enough supporters of their own? Why do they need "Jewish" supporters.

Being anti-Israel is now the nouveau, trendy, Islington, pseudo-intellectual, quasi-academic, Guardianesque "buzzword" for anti-semitism, it is a cloak - nothing else, the only pity is that you do not have the intellect to realise that.

If you are genuinely Jewish why do you not realise the harm you are doing by aligning yourself with the cause of Palestinian terrorism to the detriment of Israel and Jews in the UK, all you are doing is giving strength to our enemies who relish in being able list all the "useful Jewish idiots", you amongst them, who support their cause.

The "Theobald" comparison is apt, as is comparisons with Quisling and Lord Haw-Haw.

You should thank yourself lucky that you live in a democracy where you are allowed your twisted views and can crticise another democracy, Israel, without fear of retribution.

Try being an Iranian, Saudi Arabian, North Korean or Chinese critic, you wouldn't last very long.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 14:55

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"PSC officially supports a two-state solution"

The Palestinians representants still did not accept the "two-state solution". For PLO and Hamas, the second state for Jews still dwells in the sea.

Justice for Jews is impossible, since it would mean expelling all Palestinians from Judea Samaria to Jordan and Egypt. But Arafat even refused to get 97% of it.
Palestinians never made any effort for peace, always waiting for Israel to surrender unconditionally to their terms.


Yvetta

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:46

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These are the stated aims of the PSC:
• for the right of self-determination for the Palestinian people
• for the right of return of the Palestinian people
• for the immediate withdrawal of the Israeli state from the occupied territories
• against the oppression and dispossession suffered by the Palestinian people
• in support of the rights of the Palestinian people and their struggle to achieve these rights
• to promote Palestinian civil society in the interests of democratic rights and social justice
• to oppose Israel's occupation and its aggression against neighbouring states
• in opposition to racism, including anti-Jewish prejudice and the apartheid and Zionist nature of the Israeli state

Those two states are not mentioned - but whatever the case, one thing seens clear: given those stated aims, any state for the Jews does not figure in their agenda.


Yvetta

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 18:52

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Thanks for that Socialist Worker link, Deborah.


jose (not verified)

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 19:31

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"any state for the Jews does not figure in their agenda."

Moreover, some of the aims would just destroy an existing one.
It libels Israel as "apartheid state" while all Israelis have one vote (remember Mandela's "one man, one vote? Well, that's already the case in Israel, hence no apartheid).


DeborahMaccoby

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:07

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Palestinians can vote in Israel, but they are discriminated against and are second class citizens, because they don't belong to the nation, the way that all citizens belong to the nation in states like Britain or France. Citizenship in Israel is separate from nationality - there is Israeli citizenship but no Israeli nationality. Israel is an ethnic Jewish nation-state, belonging to one people - the worldwide Jewish people, the majority of which doesn't live there. So Israeli citizens who aren't Jewish have a second class status, even if they can vote. This is what PSC means by being against Israel's "apartheid and Zionist nature" - but not against the Israeli state per se.

Re the right of return, I agree with Norman Finkelstein that a full right of return only makes sense in a binational one state solution. In the context of a two state solution, I would support acknowledgement of Israel's major part in creating the Palestinian refugee problem, an apology to the Palestinian people and - in the context of a two-state solution - an acceptance of the refugees' right of return in principle, followed by a negotiated agreement on implementation. I do think PSC should qualify the words "a right of return" in some way, as the rest of their aims do indicate support of a two state solution.

Personally I think these problems are so intractable that the best solution is a binational state, with equal national/collective and individual rights.

Deborah


Yvetta

Tue, 07/20/2010 - 20:52

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So long as the Palestinian children are fed a rich diet of Nazi-type propaganda, and Hamas wants a judenrein Middle East, I would expect cries of Itbach al-Yahud to follow any dismantling of Israel - and the export of the Caliphate abroad to really begin in earnest.


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 04:14

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" ....there is Israeli citizenship but no Israeli nationality."

Deborah you have bought into the Greenstein BS. This is not true. Israeli passports have the word for nationality in them.

http://www.jewdas.org/2009/11/anti-semitism-in-the-service-of-war-crimes...

Harvey: "Maccoby is right up there with Deborah Fink"

Not fair. Intellectually and socially M is streets ahead of F (even though M is often wrong).


Yvetta

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 07:29

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Yes, I doubt I'd agree with Deborah on much, but it's good of her to debate these matters here - and I appreciate her intervention with the Reading PSC. I've also seen her rudely treated on other threads - Deborah's always courteous herself, and merits courtesy in return.
Right - having sermonised I'm off for a quick sea air constitutional!


raycook

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 08:50

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It was very revealing of Deborah to state the all-so-reasonable aims of the PSC.

The leaps of logic from stating debatable but reasonable points to the offensive and bloated rhetoric language of the delusional left and the Islamists is quite staggering.

One example: Deborah concedes that Palestinians in Israel can vote, she then begins by trying to convince us that Palestinians are discriminated against because they are not part of the 'Nation' which then leads to the confirmation that Israel is an Apartheid State.

It is quite reasonable to point out and discuss discrimination within Israel, but it quite another thing to label it Apartheid when she has already admitted that their is universal franchise in Israel. I don't remember blacks voting in apartheid South Africa or being represented in parliament or receiving high levels of health care and education. Maybe Deborah can back up her Apartheid comparison.

If she is so keen to campaign against discrimination and Apartheid why doesn't she turn her talents to vilify Jordan where Jews are not even allowed citizenship and any visiting Jew is not allowed to bring in any religious item such as a tallit or tefillin? Jordan, where thousands of Palestinians had their citizenship revoked last year.

Why doesn't she attack Saudi Arabia which allows only Muslim citizens amongst its many other discriminatory practices. Christian Phillipino guest workers cannot build a church or distribute christia material, they have to hold services in a house or apartment and not advertise the fact.

So what about the Saudi 'volk' or the Jordanian 'volk'?

In contrast, there is complete freedom of religion in Israel.

Then she states 'Israel is an ethnic Jewish nation-state, belonging to one people - the worldwide Jewish people'

Firstly, there is no single Jewish ethnicity. But yes, Israel IS the state of the worldwide Jewish people. Is not Germany the state of the worldwide German people? Why does Deborah deny the 3,500 year status of the Jewish people whilst cheerleading for the Palestinian people whose provenance is but 45 years.

Now comes the left's obsessive delusion where dogma defeats logic and commonsense:

"Personally I think these problems are so intractable that the best solution is a binational state, with equal national/collective and individual rights. "

Oh yeah, I can just see Hamas and Fatah buying into that.

Deborah wants the Palestinian 'refugees' to return first of course, though we don't know where to or how they would be accommodated or who would be turfed out as a result. And of course there would be no discrimination against Jews in this bi-national state, would there? Jews could live in the Palestinian state (which would not be apartheid or discriminatory or Islamist, of course) just like non-Jews live in the Israeli one, eh Deborah? And Jews would be members of the Palestinian parliament and stand for election? Eh, Deborah? And Jews will be able to buy land in the Palestinian controlled area without the seller facing the death penalty, as now, eh Deborah?

And the old 'freedom fighters' of Fatah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad etc. would beat their automatic weapons into ploughshares, eh Deborah? And the Palestinians won't be involved in internecine conflict and Iran won't gain a foothold from which to destroy the Jewish state and Hizbullah will declare the end of their policy to destroy Israel and Hamas will tear up their charter and it will all be peace an love, eh, eh, eh, Deborah?


happygoldfish

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 11:53

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deborah, In the context of a two state solution, do you also suppport an acceptance of the jewish refugees' right of return in principle?

in other words … are you a jew for justice for jews?

DeborahMaccoby: In the context of a two state solution, I would support acknowledgement of Israel's major part in creating the Palestinian refugee problem, an apology to the Palestinian people and - in the context of a two-state solution - an acceptance of the refugees' right of return in principle, followed by a negotiated agreement on implementation.


DeborahMaccoby

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 16:10

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Just a few brief points, as all I really wanted to do was to make my point re Gilad Atzmon:

1) I did not compare Israel with Jordan or Saudi Arabia. Israel claims to be a Western-style liberal democracy, so asks to be judged in comparison with countries like Britain and France, with which I compared it. Compared with these countries, Israel is an ethnic nation-state, belonging to one people and not to its citizens. Germany is not the state of all people of German ethnic origin but of all its citizens, regardless of background.

2) Of course discrimination against Palestinians in Israel is not overt as in South Africa, and there are many democratic elements, but there are elements of apartheid in it - and there is full apartheid in the West Bank.

3) Yes, I support Jewish refugees from Arab lands being allowed back to the countries from which they came, but I don't think their situation can be equated with that of the Palestinian refugees. Israel welcomed them and encouraged them to come (in the case of Iraq, there is good evidence that the Israeli secret service actually planted bombs in synagogues to make Iraqi Jews feel afraid to stay) and they left over several decades, so it was not a case of "exchange of populations", as it is often called.

4)re:"And Jews will be able to buy land in the Palestinian controlled area without the seller facing the death penalty, as now, eh Deborah?":

If Palestinians sell land to Jews under current circumstances, they are seen as selling out to the occupier and oppressor. If the situation becomes one of equality, this will no longer be the case. I know Benny Morris argues "us or them" - either we oppress them or they will oppress us - but surely if there are sufficient guarantees of national/collective as well as individual rights, the land can be shared equally. The fears of white South Africans that they would all be massacred by the black majority have not materialised, and in the case of South Africa there is one unitary state, not a binational state (since the conflict there was a racial one, not a national one) - also the numbers are far more equal in Israel/Palestine. I would have thought there was far less for Israeli Jews to fear.

Deborah


raycook

Wed, 07/21/2010 - 21:36

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@Deborah Maccoby

1) I did not compare Israel with Jordan or Saudi Arabia. Israel claims to be a Western-style liberal democracy, so asks to be judged in comparison with countries like Britain and France, with which I compared it. Compared with these countries, Israel is an ethnic nation-state, belonging to one people and not to its citizens. Germany is not the state of all people of German ethnic origin but of all its citizens, regardless of background.

Israel doesn't ask to be judged at all and certainly not by the PSC. Britain and France have not faced existential threats from their neighbours for 100 years. The point you are making is racist because you dont expect the Jordan or Saudi Arabia to behave like France or Britain. Why not? Why don;t you campaign for the rights of Saudi women or Palestinians in Syria?
Israel IS the state of all its people reagrdless of ethnic origin. What do you understand by Israeli ethnicity? Ethicity refers to race and even you would agree that Israel is a multi-racial society, so which 'race' are you referring to?

2) Of course discrimination against Palestinians in Israel is not overt as in South Africa, and there are many democratic elements, but there are elements of apartheid in it - and there is full apartheid in the West Bank.

Please let me know what the elements of apartheid are because you are already moving away from your apartheid slur. The West Bank is not Israel so the 'apartheid elements' their consist of a separation of communities. Palestinians on the West Bank are not Israelis. I don't like this separation as it causes many injustices but it is not that different from the separation walls in Belfast or Londonderry and it has proved necessary to protect West Bank Israelis.

Apartheid is a loaded word and you use it not to be accurate but to demonise.

Yes, I support Jewish refugees from Arab lands being allowed back to the countries from which they came Well that's an easy thing to support because a) they don't want to go b) They wouldn't be let in. c) If they were they would have little impact on the countries they return to. d) How many Arab countries have agreed to a return of its formerly evicted Jewish citizens? None.

On the other hand, Palestinians returning to their homes in large numbers would destroy Israel as a state of the Jewish people and you know it and desire it. But no-one ever explains where exactly these 'refugees' would go? Are they going to evict Jews? How would this work?

If Palestinians sell land to Jews under current circumstances, they are seen as selling out to the occupier and oppressor. If the situation becomes one of equality, this will no longer be the case

Mahmoud Abbas told you that did he? Or maybe you have the ear of Khaled Mashaal?

The fears of white South Africans that they would all be massacred by the black majority have not materialised, and in the case of South Africa there is one unitary state, not a binational state (since the conflict there was a racial one, not a national one)

But you just said that Israel is an ethnic nation-state, in other words, one based on race. Get your story right Deborah.

The whites feared massacre because of retribution, Hamas and Fatah do not want retribution, they want a Judenrein Palestine and the sooner you acknowledge this, the better because all those PSC supporters at the rallies who want Palestine to be Free From the River to the Sea mean Free of Jews, at least live ones, and you know it.

I would have thought there was far less for Israeli Jews to fear.

I suggest you make a mental journey back to 1933 or to Hebron in 1929 BEFORE Israel existed and there are many other examples. Jews have always had to fear massacre and genocide and expulsion and that's a very good reason (though not by any means the only one) why Jews need their own state. If they are part of a bi-national state, which may sound attractive to some, then sooner or later it will be just another Arab/Muslim state with the Jews as dhimmi, at best, and we all know what the worst is. But not you of course, Deborah.

You are in denial because such scenarios clash with your political dogma.


raycook

Thu, 07/22/2010 - 15:25

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Jon_i_Cohen

Thu, 07/22/2010 - 15:46

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@raycook
excellent postings!


DeborahMaccoby

Thu, 07/22/2010 - 20:42

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Dear Ray,

Re your query about "elements of Israeli apartheid". have a look at this link below, from JNews. It shows that it is increasingly difficult for land in Israel to be leased or sold to Palestinian citizens of Israel (and don't forget that part of this land was taken from refugees who were driven out in 1948 and not allowed to return):

http://www.jnews.org.uk/commentary/background-paper-the-controversial-la...

best wishes,

Deborah


DeborahMaccoby

Thu, 07/22/2010 - 20:48

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Also, re your link about the Israeli right wing and the one state solution, have a look at this fascinating article by Ali Abunimah:

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-07-20/ali-abunimah-israeli-right-...

I also strongly recommend his brilliant book about a binational state in Israel/Palestine: "One Country."

best wishes,

Deborah


raycook

Thu, 07/22/2010 - 21:49

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Dear Deborah

Yes, the JNF and the question of who owns the land and who they may lease it too goes back beyond the founding of the state and is a vexed and anomalous situation of some complexity, and I don't pretend to fully understand it.

I'm sure there are grounds for accusations of discrimination, and land reform is probably going to be necessary sooner or later.

As I often say, Israel is not perfect and I never pretend it is, but if this is your evidence for comparison to apartheid then it is pretty thin. Israeli laws can be criticised but they bear no resemblance to South Africa during apartheid.

On the one state solution I refer you to my previous reference http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000751.html

Any one state solution will deny both Israelis AND Palestinians self-determination. The two peoples are so diverse that any left-wing dream of a Marxist Israstine (and even the name of this state shows how difficult it would be) will be a Frankinstein's monster.

There is no guarantee for either party that one or the other, over time, may come to dominate the other. The Jewish people have had 2000 years of experience of well-meaning neighbours and hosts promising them certain rights and privileges only to murder, expel or subjugate then 100 or 200 years later or whenever.

And Abunimah is wrong about Lieberman; he never advocated expelling anyone, he suggested a population exchange which is different but still offensive IMO.

The post-Zionists in Israel and elsewhere love the 1-state solution because it a very 'reasonable' way of desroying the Zionist state


happygoldfish

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 07:45

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deborah, thankyou for replying

DeborahMaccoby: 3) Yes, I support Jewish refugees from Arab lands being allowed back to the countries from which they came, but I don't think their situation can be equated with that of the Palestinian refugees. Israel welcomed them and encouraged them to come (in the case of Iraq, there is good evidence that the Israeli secret service actually planted bombs in synagogues to make Iraqi Jews feel afraid to stay) and they left over several decades, so it was not a case of "exchange of populations", as it is often called.

since this blog is going well off-topic , i'll start a new blog to continue this exchange …

see my jews for justice for jews (right of return)

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