The twin myths of the possibility of a moral occupation and the possibility of a moral army


By jandrsimonson
December 19, 2010
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Occupations are ALWAYS brutal and nasty. There are no moral occupations.There are NO exceptions.

Armies are not moral enterprises, they are killing machines.Occupying armies NEVER behave well.Might is right and in an occupation situation, i.e. a military machine versus civilians situation, it is the military machine that has the might and which exercises it

The Isreali army and the occupation of the west bank are NOT exceptions to any of this. All occupations demoralise and humiliate the occupied and brutalise both the occupied and the occupier.While one might grudgingly accept the necessary evil of occupation in an immediate post war situation ( which is why international law accepts the legality of occupation in certain carefully detailed circumstances ) it must never be considered " a good ".

The key thing is that any occupation is short. As short as possible both for the safety and self esteem of the occupied and the moral survival of the occupier.

The big problem with the occupation of the west bank is that it has gone on for 43 years and has been normalised in the psyche of the Israeli public.Further it is compounded by the illegal colonisation of the territory, which colonisation has to be protected and facilitated by the army with disastrous consequences for its reputation and the sense of moral and spiritual well being of its soldiers. The army finds itself the supervisor and protector of what inevitably and necessarily has evolved into an apartheid province.

What is happening on the west bank is classic occupation plus colonisation stuff. Military law for the occupied population, civil law for the occupiers settlers, special roads for the settlers, even different definitions of childhood for the the occupied population and the settlers. And so on and so on. And the classic occupier terror tactic of the knock on the door in the dead of night, or rather the kicking down of the door in the dead of night.

Then the all too familiar ludicrous plea that if only the occupied would accept the occupation and stop resisting it then and only then can the occupation end.Classic black is white stuff.

Why do a few kids throwing stones provoke the brutal terror response that it does ? It's not that the stone throwing represents any real threat to the occupation, but rather, that it is a statement that the occupation , howeve, forlonly, is resisted.And this is the kind of statement no occupier can allow to be heard, since occupiers represent the occupation as benevolent supervision welcomed by the grateful occupied.

It is all classic time immemorial stuff. No State is exempt from the impossibility of moral occupation,including Israel.

If Israel is to have any long term future, not just morally and spiritually, but also existentially, it must stop the colonisation very soon and end the occupation soon after.

Let the special pleading and hysterical cries of ANTI SEMITIC !!! begin

COMMENTS

amber

19 December, 2010 - 10:01

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-1 points

What an intellectually flawed post.

Simonson, was the Allies' occupations of Germany and Japan "brutal", because our armies are "killing machines"?

You have stated that occupations are "ALWAYS" brutal.

So answer this point specifically please.


Isca Stieglitz

19 December, 2010 - 10:04

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3 points

I can agree with the some of your comments regarding the nature of occupation. However, I was an army dependent in Germany for eight years and I would say that was a peaceful/moral occupation. Some German folk resented it after a time, in particular the East Germans for obvious reasons, but mostly it was understood why we were there. Of course the 'occupation' sort of merged into a NATO presence and now, after the fall of the Berlin wall, the 'occupation' is at an end. The reasons for this are now the subject of myriads of texts, books and research. I would put money on the major reason being a long and extended period of trust and no violence and the building of links via business, enterprise, education etc.

Having lived and worked in Israel, inc.West Bank, in various guises and on various 'projects', my experience is varied. I can say that 'stones' and tear gas do hurt; thrown by children or not.

A lot of children, are deliberately armed in this way for 'David & Goliath' purposes and yet many are given fire arms for the job. Recruitment of child soldiers is a big problem, but more than this a tragic problem.

Hearing anecdotes of IDF soldiers and Gazan/West Bank teenager recruits, both 18, was a real eye opener...and not all the anecdotes were bad.

The end of the occupation is encumbent on BOTH sides in this conflict. Whether one supports the UN or not, the resolutions put in place also place the 'conditions' for peace on both sides of the conflict, not just one side. It is also incumbent on surrounding arab/moslem countries to 'allow' peace to occur and at the moment the majority do not.

I suppose it comes down to basics, history, fear, mistrust, loathing and yet there are still many people on all sides who take those feelings and do something positive with them...everyday.


amber

19 December, 2010 - 10:04

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0 points

In addition simonson, Israel has no choice at the moment. Ther eis no negotiating partner. Abbas has shown hiomself time and time again to be uninterested in peace, and has said he will never, under any circumstances, recognize a Jewish state.

Hamas, for its part, wishes to bring about the extermination of all Jews.

Look at Gaza. Israel left, ostensibly to hand over to the PA. Within a short space of time, hamas staged a coup and took over the territory completely. It has since continued its quest to kill Jews.

Who would take control if Israel withdrew? Without practical answers, you have nothing new or feasible to propose.


amber

19 December, 2010 - 10:07

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-1 points

In addition, to say that throwing stones brings a "terror response" is not only a loaded phrase - it is a lie.


Jonathan Hoffman

19 December, 2010 - 10:09

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-1 points

http://www.israellycool.com/2010/12/15/another-bds-protest-shoots-itself...

"Occupations are ALWAYS brutal and nasty..."

Presumably you are referring to the forces of darkness illegally trespassing in supermarkets...


jandrsimonson

19 December, 2010 - 10:11

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1 point

Yes it was brutal.Amber it was brutal because that is what occupations are.Unfortunately you are not able to ask the then citizens of East prussia, berlin etc

If we accept the categories the world commonly accepts then it was legitimate in all the circumstances and it met the " short " criteria.

I bow to your judgment of what is intellectually flawed and what is not and have done so ever since I read your post on the Galloway blog.... " I am not yelling abuse I am merely stating a fact. You are a moron. "

Mice one Cyril


Watchful Iris

19 December, 2010 - 10:11

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1 point

I'm curious to know your thoughts on "democracy vs. theocracy, Simonson. Rather than waste time and fingers on the irrational and histrionic, care to venture into that arena? Maybe that's for another blog.....


Yoni1

19 December, 2010 - 10:22

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-1 points

Oh, for crying out loud, another smug and ignorant scribble from the smug and ignorant Simonson. Still, I suppose that is only to be expected.

"In addition, to say that throwing stones brings a "terror response" is not only a loaded phrase - it is a lie."

Yes, that's true. I forgot to add that Simonson is also an Israel-hating liar.


Jonathan Hoffman

19 December, 2010 - 10:31

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-1 points

Simonson seems to have omitted the fact that GDP growth in Judea/Samaria has been 8%+ for at least the past two years .... and that Israel is only there because his Israel-hating friends massed to attack in 1967 and were then defeated: waging wars and losing has consequences.

funny, that .... wonder why these facts were omitted?


amber

19 December, 2010 - 10:54

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-1 points

simonson, you have stated that the Allies' occupation of both Japan and Germany were "brutal."

1. Please specify what was brutal about them. And please be specific, with examples.
2. What was the alternative for the Allies at the end of the war. Please provide a specific scenario you would have preferred.


amber

19 December, 2010 - 10:59

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-1 points

Also simonson, could you explain what the alternative is for Israel at the moment?


amber

19 December, 2010 - 17:10

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0 points

simonson? Any ideas?


Watchful Iris

19 December, 2010 - 17:18

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-1 points

I think Simonson went to the club...or was it the pub?


Yoni1

19 December, 2010 - 18:02

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0 points

Amber, Simonson doesn't like those who stand up to fascists, full stop. I wonder why that is.


Watchful Iris

19 December, 2010 - 18:13

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-1 points

Yonithan knows stuff.


amber

19 December, 2010 - 18:29

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0 points

simonson, I take it you are frightened to enter a debate, becuase you know your thesis makes no sense.

Still, keep spouting the hatred - it suits you.


Armchair Quarterback

19 December, 2010 - 19:08

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-1 points

LOL @ Yonithan I like it


Armchair Quarterback

19 December, 2010 - 19:12

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-2 points

While I would hate to seem like I am trying to improve on the delightful Iris's shrewd perception might I humbly suggest " Yawnythan " ?


Armchair Quarterback

19 December, 2010 - 20:04

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-2 points

"In addition, to say that throwing stones brings a "terror response" is not only a loaded phrase - it is a lie."
Yes, that's true. I forgot to add that Simonson is also an Israel-hating liar."

Yoni you surely meant to say that Amby forgot to add ? Unless Jonathan and Yoni are not one and the same person but also A...oh its not possible

Ignore me I am having a bad snow day


Armchair Quarterback

19 December, 2010 - 20:07

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-2 points

not only one and the same person but also A... I meant to say


jose (not verified)

19 December, 2010 - 20:18

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0 points

You're right to be afraid, Armchair. But I think also Yoni and Jonathan ought to find offensive all you posts implying a conspiracy by using two pseudos at the same time. As you know, some bloggers were removed after making repeated suggestions of the same kind.

simonson has finally found the way out of the IP block, only to post a stupid "always" statement, shown easily to be flawed by a counter-example. Great answer, Amber.

By the way, simonson, Israel has been occupied by Romans, then Arabs, then Christians, then Ottomans, then UK...
Do you think these occupations were also brutal and humiliating and that the country should be returned to the only free people who ever lived there?


Joe Millis

19 December, 2010 - 20:25

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-1 points

Let's see, Jose. Romans (brutal), Arabs (brutal, but less than the Romans), Crusaders (very brutal), Arabs again, (brutal, but less than the Romans) )Ottomans (brutal, but less than the Crusaders), Brits (brutal, but in a stiff-upper-lip, imperialist sort of way).
So lets return it to the Canaanites.


Armchair Quarterback

19 December, 2010 - 20:32

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-1 points

well wasn't there some creature that came out of the primeval slime that preceded all of them that we might return it to ?


jose (not verified)

19 December, 2010 - 20:48

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1 point

So lets return it to the Canaanites.

well wasn't there some creature that came out of the primeval slime that preceded all of them that we might return it to ?

You two are twins?

Well, I agree for the Canaanites, if you can find them. Try also to find the Philistines, while you're at it, you know the people after which the imported Arabs call themselves.

And if you agree the Jews is the only free people who ever lived on that land, let them have it.


jose (not verified)

19 December, 2010 - 20:49

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0 points

Brits (brutal, but in a stiff-upper-lip, imperialist sort of way).

They were brutal and humiliating. Didn't you read simonson?
Fortunately, they were driven out by resistance fighters.


amber

20 December, 2010 - 00:00

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2 points

Simonson - totally unable to answer - or think.

Pathetic.


Watchful Iris

20 December, 2010 - 02:22

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-1 points

Yeah, Simonson, you coward! How dare you sit at your computer all day long in silence, keeping Amber waiting.


jose (not verified)

20 December, 2010 - 04:21

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1 point

Myopic Iris, I think simonson has trouble with his IP address re posting on JC. Sometimes happen when using several pseudos, one of which is banned.

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