The Guardian and BBC - Fighting Together Against Israel

Those two media outlets are the devil incarnate, and I've noticed many omissions of moot evidence presenting Israel's case against the flotilla by the BBC. They have obviously suppressed it.

joshua18. you claim the bbc/guardian are trying to de-legitimise the spoof video. presumably you must find it perfectly legitimate then to mock those killed and injured in an act of state piracy in international waters? you also claim the video to be wildly popular in israel. if true, that demonstrates as clearly as anything else, the truth of the authors Iain Bank's use of the words 'moral degeneracy to describe the govt of israel.

Yvetta - devil incarnate? slightly over the top i think. both these media organisations are about as close to objective as it is possible to be - certainly compared to anything in Israel. you must stop demonising anyone who simply doesnt toe the israeli govt line. So called evidence presenting israel's case re the recent act of piracy, murder, kidnapping, and theft, is risible. nobody out here in the real world is buying israel's preposterous spin on the incident.

"you claim the bbc/guardian are trying to de-legitimise the spoof video"

It isn't just a claim but a fact. Both organisations have deliberately used misleading headlines in order to try and suggest that the Israeli government has apologised for the video when it has done no such thing.

"you also claim the video to be wildly popular in israel."

As you well know, I simply said that it is "wildy popular". Obviously, you have been taking lessons in disinformation from the anti-Zionist media in the UK.
It is in fact wildly popular full stop.

"if true, that demonstrates as clearly as anything else, the truth of the authors Iain Bank's use of the words 'moral degeneracy to describe the govt of israel."

One can only reach that conclusion if you don't believe that the Jewish state has a right to defend herself and that the passengers on the boat where the fatalities occurred were in large part terrorists. In actual fact, I believe that the moral degenerate here is Iain Banks. The true aim of individuals like Banks and his supporters is in the words of Charles Krauthammer "to deprive the Jewish state of any legitimate form of self-defense".

Source: Israel, disarmed By C. KRAUTHAMMER

http://tinyurl.com/2f9uo4g

I also find it rather hilarious that a Brit of all people should be accusing any nation (but, of course, in line with his very obvious prejudices it is only Israel he accuses) of moral degeneracy when his own is so very wicked. Leaving aside Britain's role in the Holocaust, the murder of many thousands of Germans during World War II and many other matters, we only have to look at the last few decades to see just how wicked she has been. From the Malivinas to Ireland and from Serbia to Iraq and Afghanistan, Britain's recent history is one of brute force and bloody massacres. God alone knows what Britain would have done in Israel's place. If the past is anything to go by, it wouldn't have been an edifying story to put it mildly. There is no question that Israel at her very worst is better than Perfidious Albion at her best.

Incidentally, one of the reasons I support Israel is because I don't want Jewish children to have to breathe the same air as individuals like Iain Banks. Jewish people have had to put up with too many bigoted monsters throughout history. Enough is enough.

joshua18. oh dear - everyone else is wrong, and poor little israel right. one thing you need to properly understand, is that opposition to israels insane policies has got nothing to do with judaism, and everything to do with simple morality. who are you with? the criminal or the victim? the bully or the bullies? the position you take is like that of someone coming accross a 20 stone 6ft 6inch man beating up a small child, and joining in! and then trying to justify it on the jc. no - reasonable people do not object to israel defending itself, but what israel does is not defence. is it defence to keep 1.5 million gazans in a giant prison camp; brutalise them, and deny them any sort of life - because they made the mistake of believing that the us rhetoric of democracy meant they could vote for whoever they like? is it defense to shoot stone throwing kids in the west bank, run over american citizens with bulldozers, run over old men with tanks?

israel, because it is an increasingly morally degenerate state, will face an increasingly powerful boycott. the cultural one is well on its way to being established, the scientific and educational one is beginning, and surely as night follows day, the economic one will follow.

it doesnt have to be like this.

as i have said before, i agree with much of what you say re the record of the uk. i dont support the uk when its acts are immoral, illegal, or just plain wrong. why do you support israel whatever it does?

In this barrage of demented hatred you have spewed out against the Jewish state, there is one signal feature, and that is the fact that it is Israel and only Israel, alone amongst the nations of the world, that you have marked out for this treatment. The only possible thing that can serve as an explanation for this is anti-Semitism. You don't give two hoots about the Palestinians. It's the Jews you have it in for. Mark Steyn makes the point well:

'I write in the new National Review (on sale now-ish) that, if old-school judenhass was a by-product of more or less traditional racism and conventional nationalism, the new judenhass advances under the cover of "anti-racism" and "multiculturalism". The oldest hatred didn't get that way without the ability to adapt.'

http://tinyurl.com/28jhrxr

Let's examine another of your statements, one that you made on another thread:

"Israel has become a lunatic state. The only thing that will stop it is a catastrophic military defeat - something like what happened to Germany or Japan. Only after that will it have the chance to grow into a normal country."

Two points:

1) You compare the Jewish state to Nazi Germany. That comes well within the definition of anti-Semitism as laid down by the EU.

2) You call for the deaths of millions of Jews.

3) You suggest that the Jewish state is not normal.

In short, you are a classic anti-Semite.

One brief issue

Echoing the boycott of Jews in Europe in the 1930s and before, you call for a boycott of Israel. That is an impossibility.

1) Britain is bankrupt. Europe is in a worse state. The last thing either can afford is a trade war.

2) Israel's economy is doing very nicely.

3) Israel's high-tech economy is so completely integrated into the world economy that a boycott would not be feasible. In the type of economy we have today, you cannot boycott this or that computer program or part in your computer, or this or that generic drug. You also cannot boycott a Microsoft, an Oracle, an Intel, a Cisco, a Berkshire Hathaway. They are just too big and they would not divest from Israel, a country in which they have huge investments. And that is just a small part of it.

4) Any boycott would rebound immediately on the boycotters. If Bankrupt Britain tried it, she would be pushed over the edge. Put it this way: Britain boycotts Israel and many US corporations and millions of Americans boycott Britain. It just wouldn't wash.

5) Any cultural boycott will be minimal. For every little group that won't play, you will have a Leonard Cohen, a Paul McCartney, a Madonna, an Elton John and a Rod Stewart who will.

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I think the question you should be asking youself is how bad it will get in Britain? My educated guess is that the depression will last for decades and Britain will come through it in the end, just about. Along the way, though, there will be many years when you will think that she is completely done for.

Well done, Joshua! Game,set and match to you, I think.

Joshua18.

You refer to my ‘demented, hatred, spewed’ out. Joshua, are you actually reading my stuff? It’s quite reasoned, fairly well argued – come on, stop over-reacting. You say that I am only interested in criticising Israel, but how can you know this? This is the JC website, and obviously a lot of the stuff concerns Israel. If I want to comment on US or UK foreign policy, I will not be using this website. If I want to bitch about the catalogue of faults with the EU, again I will not be using this website. If I want to write about appaling regimes in Africa, Asia, S America, I will not be using this website.

You, and some others on this site, make much of the fact that Israel is always singled out for special attention – as if other countries seem to get away with worse behaviour all the time. The thing is, Israel likes to make much of the fact that it is a western nation; a democracy in a sea of Arab dictatorships; a ‘normal’ country if you like. A country, in other words, that sits comfortably within the liberal democratic tradition. The problem for you is, I cannot think of another liberal democracy today, or in recent times that has for instance – maintained a brutal occupation of another peoples land for 43 years; invaded its neighbours’ on a regular basis often using indiscriminate and hugely disproportionate force; disregarded quite so many UN resolutions; and developed a clandestine nuclear weapon program; etc, etc.

Far from Israel being ‘singled out’ as you argue for actions that other democracies seem to carry out without being troubled by the global community, quite the reverse is the case – as you well know. Thanks to the bizarre patronage extended by the US, and the abject cowardice displayed by the EU, Israel has to date, pretty much got away scot-free, with anything and everything it has done – however horrendous.

I did argue that Israel probably would require a catastrophic military defeat to bring it to its senses – in much the same way that defeat transformed Germany and Japan in 1945. I did not however, ‘call for the deaths of millions of Jews’ as you claimed, or even mention the word Nazi. You seamlessly inserted those libels into your commentary, in an effort of course, to marginalise me as some kind of anti Semitic nutter.

On the subject of boycotts, you say that the UK or the EU could not afford a trade war with Israel! Do you have any idea how small the Israeli economy is compared to the UK, let alone the EU? Any counter sanctions from Israel would be like a gnat biting an elephant. Certainly the US would not be in a position to start a trade war with the EU over Israel, even if it wanted to, since it would suffer in the process. Also, I think it is becoming clearer to Americans just how much of a cost Israel imposes on the US in diplomatic, counter-terrorism, and economic terms – do you think in this climate it is in a mood to bear further burdens because of its liability of an ally in the middle east?

Yawn.