The EDL and Ahava

Why does the unseen anonymous hand cut off debates in their prime? The point is that while that was an excellent cop-out, Jonathan, it does reveal that there is recognition of the fact that the Ahave demos are detracting from the excellent work of the ZF.

As regards enquiries about the ZF, I am advised that I cannot respond anymore to queries which are posted anonymously on the Internet. However, please do not hesitate to write to the staff at the Zionist Federation with your concerns. (You will of course need to give your real name and supply a postal address).

Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland
BM BOX 1948
London WC1N 3XX
office@zionist.org.uk

I just want to know whether the Greensteins are related.

That's a great cop-out, Jonathan, with footwork worthy of Muhammad Ali. However, it does indicate that there is some discomfort at the ZF over the EDL/BNP participation in the Ahava demos. This is good, since there appears to be some realisation that this is distracting from the ZF's fantastic work on behalf of Israel advocacy. Many people now await the full dissociation.

'Many people now await the full dissociation.'

Don't hold your breath ts. As I have previously stated on this website, at a recent ZF event there was open discussion of dealings with the sikh representative of the EDL.

As regards enquiries about the ZF, I am advised that I cannot respond anymore to queries which are posted anonymously on the Internet. However, please do not hesitate to write to the staff at the Zionist Federation with your concerns. (You will of course need to give your real name and supply a postal address).

Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland
BM BOX 1948
London WC1N 3XX
office@zionist.org.uk

Copy and paste. That's novel.

@Jonathan...

"I am advised that I cannot respond anymore to queries which are posted anonymously."

By whom? And by cannot, do you mean will not?

It's not anonymous, my name is Jon. I don't see why I have to give my surname before you renounce standing with fascists. I am a private citizen who is concerned about the ZF standing with the EDL and I find your stubborn refusal to issue a clear statement on the EDL pretty worrying.

Ho hum, if a letter to Andrew Balcombe is what it takes to get a clear answer then so be it.

,Jon and tsam

In a democracy anybody can rock up at an Ahava gig and The EDL are quite within their democratic rights to attend.

Of course, you might not like the law as it stands.

In the circumstances, don't bother writing to The ZF. Write to your MP and ask him/her to introduce a private members bill to change the law. If you want we can discuss the precise wording.

@Anthony.

Thanks for that, its not so much being seen next to someone at a demo, I understand how this happens.

its the fact that when questioned Jonathan has repeated refused to denounce them, there is no mention of them on the ZF and to get his (supposed) views on it, you have to go to the EDL website, somewhere I would rather not spend my time.

As regards enquiries about the ZF, I am advised that I cannot respond anymore to queries which are posted anonymously on the Internet. However, please do not hesitate to write to the staff at the Zionist Federation with your concerns. (You will of course need to give your real name and supply a postal address).

Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland
BM BOX 1948
London WC1N 3XX
office@zionist.org.uk

AP, that's not the point. Obviously the EDL/BNP can "rock up" to any demo, including Ahava. But the point is that those Jews there should immediately leave because it is immoral to stand with Nazis, whether they be the common-or-garden EDL/BNP type or the Hamas/Hizbollah proxies joined by the JfJfP and its ilk..

More copy and pasting. Wow.

More copy and pasting. Wow.

Jonathan... remember all that howling about trolling that you used to do?

Copying and pasting the same bit of text is the very definition of trolling...

Hang on, does this mean that Jonathan cannot speak on behalf of the zf? Has there been a ticking off or worse, a removal?

tsam,
"Obviously the EDL/BNP can "rock up" to any demo, including Ahava. But the point is that those Jews there should immediately leave because it is immoral to stand with Nazis, whether they be the common-or-garden EDL/BNP type or the Hamas/Hizbollah proxies joined by the JfJfP and its ilk.."

(1) you believe that The EDL is entitled to rock up at Ahava.

(2) you believe that if this happens then other Jews should immediately leave.

Now I agree with (1), but disagree with (2).

It is certainly not "immoral" to oppose the anti-Ahavists just because a few members of The EDL turn up. I certainly stayed there, as did my 87yrs mother, and our morality remained intact. (I can assure you that if my mother read your comment, she would moreover conclude that you are writing complete nonsense.)

The vast majority of the pro-Ahavists are not members of The EDL. Why on earth shouldn't they continue to confront the anti-Ahavists just because a few well behaved members of The EDL are present? My guess is that you are actually an anti-Ahavist and that is why you are advocating such nonsense.

tsam,

Please answer the following:

Are you for the Ahava boycott or are you against it?

Let me state my case simply...

I believe that those who write that all Jews should flee the area if an EDL member is present, are anti-Ahavists. They obviously want the boycott movement to demonstrate unopposed.

To reiterate...

(1) I am against the boycott of Ahava products.

(2) I believe that everybody has the right to attend the gig.

(3) I believe that the boycott movement should be opposed even if The EDL is present.

I am against the Ahava boycott but I won't stand with the EDL/BNP Nazis (whose numbers at the Ahava demo boost Jonathan's demo of four people and a dog by at least 300 per cent) to prove it. I choose instead to buy Ahava's products, even if it's a total rip off to buy shower gel at 12 squid.
Oh and aren't you and your 87-year-old mater in Tashkent?

tsam.

So if 100 pro-Ahavists rock up at the demo (including one EDL member), then the 99 who are not EDL members must immediately flee??

That is total nonsense. Even you can recognize that. The only people who will agree are the anti-Ahavists.

Not flee, kick out the EDL/BNP people, not accommodate them. If Jonathan would dissociate himself from the EDL/BNP then I'm sure more than the usual four people and a dog would turn up. But as it is, he is far too accommodating to the EDL/BNP (while being abusive to those who want Israel advocacy to succeed without being like the Nazi thugs).

Surely it's late in Tashkent.

tsam,

You are writing more nonsense...
"kick out the EDL/BNP people"

That would be an assault. One would be immediately arrested by the police. One is not allowed to touch or push anybody.

Kick out as in tell them to Do One, Go Away, etc. Make it absolutely clear they aren't wanted. That's what demo stewards are supposed to do. Jonathan's demo does has stewards, doesn't it?
Are you a literalist or a karaite, AP? You do know what a karaite is, I'm sure.

tsam,

You wrote: "But the point is that those Jews there should immediately leave"

You are clearly contradicting yourself. Now you say " Not flee".

You have lost the argument. Are you drunk?

Good night.

You raised the hypothetical 100 pro-Ahava demonstrators (won't happen as long as there is a EDL link). As the demos are only 4 people and a dog, including one steward -- a legal requirement, I think -- then they can leave. If there were higher numbers then the thugs can be told to leave. Jews should never demonstrate/stand/march with nazis, even if they are 87-year-old mothers who live in Tashkent.

tsam,

There is no logic or consistency in your argument.

In desperation, you have now come up with some sort of bizarre mathematical formula which you concoct as you go along.

So this is how it works at Ahava?...

"According to the telegramsam formula we now all have to leave. But, hold on a minute, let's have another recount.. Excuse me Madam are you with the demo? And you Sir?"

You write complete nonsense. Clearly, you are out of your depth.

Of course there's a logic: strength in numbers. But Jonathan won't have the numbers for as long as he doesn't dissociate from the EDL. So it's all moot really.

Sorry, almost forgot. If Jonathan's demo had proper stewarding, the EDL could be removed (by the police if necessary) if they don't adhere to the organisers' requests.

tsam,

As I have shown your unformulated mathematical formula for deciding when "those Jews there should immediately leave" is unworkable.

But I doubt whether you have actually been to Ahava. If you had, you wouldn't write such nonsense. People are milling around Ahava. It is a public right of way. Cars are coming down the road. Shoppers are going in and out of Ahava and the other shops. Some are tourists, since it is opposite a hotel.

So I very much doubt whether under the law of the land, Jonathan Hoffman could ask the police to remove The EDL. And if he did, I am certain that the police would refuse to do so. "Proper stewarding" is quite impractical since people are gathering where there is a public right of way. The road is not closed. You can walk wherever you like. Anybody can turn up, and people come and go as they please.

It's not mathematical, so it can't be unformulated. It's common sense. I'm not sure how things are done in Tashkent, but it's a legal requirement, I think, in England to have demos stewarded. That being the case, the stewards would be fully within their rights to ask the EDL thugs to move off. If they don't. and if they EDL Nazis aren't adhering to the demo's aims, then the police can be involved.
People may be milling around, but the protesters, from both sides, are penned off, so your contention that people are milling about doesn't hold water, I'm afraid.
Now, if Jonathan were to officially and clearly dissociate from the EDL/BNP, which he hasn't because they boost his numbers three-fold at his demos, then maybe more people would take part and have the police move the thugs on.
There would be two other benefits: 1. The EDL/BNP thugs would get the message that they ain't wanted at pro-Israel demos and they would probably slip away themselves because at heart they are, like most bullies, cowards. And 2. No one could accuse the ZF or any other mainstream Zionist group of colluding, associating etc with the Nazis.
It's a win-win situation, unless you want to keep your numbers up by having the far right at your demos. Or maybe Jonathan realises that he has become the story and therefore whatever he does will never draw support. In which case he must draw the obvious personal conclusion and do what's best for the Zionist movement and Jewish community rather than what is best for Jonathan.

tsam,
you write
"That being the case, the stewards would be fully within their rights to ask the EDL thugs to move off. If they don't. and if they EDL Nazis aren't adhering to the demo's aims, then the police can be involved.
People may be milling around, but the protesters, from both sides, are penned off, so your contention that people are milling about doesn't hold water, I'm afraid."

It is evident that you haven't actually been to Ahava. If you had, you wouldn't write
such nonsense.

As I said, the Ahava gig takes place in the middle of a street which is not closed off to the public. The protestors are not penned off. People are freeely walking around, going in and out of the various shops and hotel.

Moreover, even if your various contentions were true, and the law was changed, how would the police know who is a member of The EDL?. They don't, as far as I am aware, wear any EDL badges.

I can assure that you as the law currently stands, the police are not going to remove anybody from the Ahava gig unless they break the law. You might dream of a fascist state, where the police can remove anybody that you don't like, but for the moment at least, you will have to accept that everybody is entitled to be there.

Ho-hum, AP, ho-hum. You are in Tashkent, how would you know? And you obviously don't know how the law works here. Ho-hum

tsam,

I note that you do not deny that you dream of a fascist state where the police can remove anybody that you don't like.

So before branding every single member of the EDL as "a Nazi", you should perhaps start looking a little closer in your mirror?

But then as I have previously written.. "We are all Nazi Juden now".

A pro-Ahava demonstrator in the pen.

Ho-hum, AP. You speak for yourself.

Sam, who are the Hamas/Hezbollah proxies JfJfP stands with?

It's a genuine question. I know such claims are sometimes made. I helped organise a protest in Jan 2009 when various pens and negotiations with the police were involved, which is why I am asking the question here, in the context of protesting and counter protesting outside Ahava.

Dan, Azzam (Kaboom) Tamimi, George (Miaow) Galloway, The "We Are All Hizbollah" mob, Ken Livingstone (who I see is campaigning for a Muslim extremist who was booted out of Labour in Tower Hamlets, which is surely against the Labour Party's rules).

I see jonathan is pleading the fifth My lawyer friends tell me only the guilty do that