The current uproar over Mick Davis's views

Stanley

We in the diaspora can say whatever we like, but the Israeli government has been voted in democratically by the Israeli citizens.

The government is listening to them (they are the ones in the car), and not us armchair politicians in North London. We are not the passengers.

If we want to give the driver advice, we need to become passengers.

PS. I believe there is an Aliya event this weekend, so Mick, Stanley and all.... hurry along!

Mr Walinets buys into a fantasy victim culture, where apparently he is silenced and prevented from saying what he wants (namely, attacking Israel, because, let's face it, israelis clearly don't come in for enough criticism already).

Pathetic.

"The undeniable growth in anti-Semitism since then has been an inevitable response to Israel's behaviour since then."

Oh yeh...... and there has never been anti-semitism before the State of Israel?

Which bubble are you living in?

"After the Hollocaust*, sympathy and respect for Jews was world-wide."

I wonder why? Do we want another few million murdered to get world sympathy again?

No thanks, we don't need world sympathy. We have our own army now. NEVER AGAIN!!

* I cut and pasted Stanley's quote. The spelling mistake was his, not mine.

Stanley what they are trying to tell you is that we are the iron fist now. A pretty weird interpretation of Judaism don't you think ?

Almost Avriamesque

"The undeniable growth in anti-Semitism since then has been an inevitable response to Israel's behaviour since then"

Yeah, right ... and a woman who wears a skirt deserves to be raped.....

The idea espoused by Walinets that Jews bring antisemitism on themselves is nothing short of disgusting.

Wrongheaded from start to finish.

First let me state that antisemitism has nothing to do with what Jews do, as anyone with the smallest brain should know. Antisemitism existed much before the new state of Israel was created and for more than 1000 years as all those who went to elementary school should know. How can Stanley explain antisemitism by the actions of Israel? Very simply, because Stanley didn't go to school.
Antisemitism has nothing to do with Israel, it has everything to do with the demonisation of Israel, demonisation of Jews (before Israel was re-created), etc.
Mick and Stan are members of the demonisation bunch.

Friends of Israel? Not at all. When your friend is driving safely, respects all the rules, and you explain him that, for his safety, he has to unfasten his seat belt and drive at 100mph on small roads, you are not a friend. Just an idiot.

Stanley is again one who criticise Israel while not being able to criticise any other country for worse ills.
Where is Stanley's criticism of China's brutal violations of human rights? Where is his criticism of Saudi Arabia's barbaric treatments under the guise of "Islamic justice"? Where is his criticism of Iran's run to atomic weapons? Where is his criticism of HAMAS and Hezbollah terror actions during the eight years before Cast Lead operation?

Stanley has only the delusion to be a friend of Israel, while he is just the usual "useful idiot" praised by the former communist regime in USSR (that, I guess, he never criticised). Fortunately, the USSR is gone. So will Stanley and his ilk.

Let me give you another example. Imagine a friend that would always criticise you, never say anything nice, while he does not criticise any other than you for doing much worse things.

How long will you admit such a person as your friend, just because he is a cousin of yours?

I guess not very long. And you'll end by saying that he is not a friend, but a brother!

Because we choose our friends, not our family! LOL!

Yeah, right ... and a woman who wears a skirt deserves to be raped.....

Excellent analogy, Jonathan! And maybe Stanley would agree that the shocking behaviour of wearing a skirt accounts for the growth in rape rates, and that therefore this is the proof that wearing a skirt is a shocking behaviour.
See: "begging the question" sophism.

How does Jose know that Stanley isn't critical of China, Saudi Arabia etc etc ?

How does Jose know that Stanley isn't critical of China, Saudi Arabia etc etc ?

Like you could have done, I googled "Stanley Walinets" and saw that he never ever criticised anything else than Israel.

Why, oh, why these guys never find anything worse to criticise than Israel. Isn't what Iran does to supposed adulterous women worth criticising? Isn't the Tibetan occupation by China worth criticising? Isn"t cutting hands or feet a barbaric treatment?
Isn't the Darfur genocide by Omar el Bechir, the darling of the Arab League, worthy of criticism? When Stanley Walinets start to call for a boycott of these countries, I'll start to believe he has a point in criticising Israel.

Until then, he can get lost, as he clearly applies double standards. And double standards are a sure sign of antisemitism.

Precisely Jose. And what would motivate someone to endlessly attack Israel, to the exclusion of all other nations on this earth?

One word - antisemitism.

There is no other explanation.

There is no other explanation.

There is: brain damage!

Thank you all for your reponses.

(1) Kahina, 26 November 19:39,said:-
"Stanley
We in the diaspora can say whatever we like, but the Israeli government has been voted in democratically by the Israeli citizens.
The government is listening to them (they are the ones in the car), and not us armchair politicians in North London. We are not the passengers.
If we want to give the driver advice, we need to become passengers."

Kahina, this is my point -- we ARE passengers in Israel's car -- how they drive it does affect us. Certainly, their Government is elected. But if their Government's decisions affect us, we have a right, indeed a duty, to tell them. Consider: Some people object to US policies which affect us in the UK (eg one-sided import/export practices), so we here tell the Americans what we think; some people here are critical of Chinese effects on UK manufacture - so we here tell the Chinese. And what Israel does affects us (eg how its illegal settlements get us Jews a bad name and encourage anti-Semitic outbreaks here), therefore we're entitled to complain to Israel.

(2) Responding to my statement that "The undeniable growth in anti-Semitism since (Israel's creation), has been an inevitable response to Israel's behaviour since then", Kahina 26 November, 19:46 said: "Oh yeh...... and there has never been anti-semitism before the State of Israel?"

Of course there has, Kahina. There's been anti-Semitism for centuries. You've misunderstood my point, which was that after the Holocaust (and thank you for correcting my spelling!) the world recognised the evil of anti-Semitism and came to see us as humans again; but that since then, the growth in Israel's unforgivable treatment, displacement, etc of Palestinians has gradually brought about new manifestations of anti-Semitism, this time based on victims' anger at the way they have been mistreated -- along with, of course, a perfect opportunity for old-time embedded Jew-haters to jump on the new bandwagon.

Other posters above also dismiss Israel's part in the re-creation of anti-Semitism. Please consider this fact: by dismissing all criticism as 'anti-Semitic', Israel excuses herself from ever questioning her own behaviour. "Israel can do no wrong. If you criticise us, you are an anti-Semite", is a perfect alibi for whatever crimes you care to commit.

3) Jose, 27 November, 2010 - 04:22:-
"Stanley is again one who criticises Israel while not being able to criticise any other country for worse ills.
Where is Stanley's criticism of China's brutal violations of human rights? Where is his criticism of Saudi Arabia's barbaric treatments under the guise of "Islamic justice"?...." etc...

I do criticise other regimes. If you'd like a list of the many critical groups I support, let me know. Saudi Arabia and its Sharia law, for instance, is abhorrent, as are -- in my view -- all religious laws which are based on the insistence of Elders that what they say is the word of their deity therefore must not be questioned (notice anything familiar there, by the way?).
I also condemn the terrorist acts of Hamas -- but in that respect, I have to point out that Hamas's actions have been exacerbated, even created, in response to Palestinians' suffering at Israel's much greater everyday crimes.
But I question aspects of what Israel does because I'm entitled to. I'm a Jew. What Israel does, it claims to do in my name. So I've a right to comment -- not least because, if Israel carries on as it is doing, I will suffer along with the rest of us.

Thank you. I hope I have helped some of you to think more clearly, and honestly.

Antisemitism wants no excuse.
Israel is facing an existential threat. If Israel falls to the Islamists the rest of us, Jew or non-Jew, will not be far behind.
Thank providence there are righteous gentiles such as JM Aznar and Pilar Rahola to bang Israel's drum - they make up for the lily-livered among our own people.

Yvetta, good evening. Indeed, you are right that antisemitism needs no excuse. But a former Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, did note at the time that Israel's actions in Lebanon and Gaza did cause spikes in what were relatively quiet years.

Stanley, our perceptions and how we relate to our peers is what this is all about. You feel uncomfortable amongst your friends with Israel's actions. I don't.

I socialise amongst many Muslims, and they tell me they secretly admire Israel's toughness. They understand it.

The saddest thing in the Arab world, is the contempt Arab states have for the Palestinians. They could so easily help them and accept them as citizens, but they are kept as refugees and used as a tool to fight against the presence of a Jewish State in the region. It is totally unfathomable to Islam for Jews to rise above their status as dhimmis. And this is the crux of the matter.

If you want to help Palestinians, the help is needed on educating their children and overthrowing Hamas.

But a former Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, did note at the time that Israel's actions in Lebanon and Gaza did cause spikes in what were relatively quiet years.

Faulty Causation Fallacy.

No doubt you won't understand as you too make that mistake quite often.
Antisemitism has everything to do with your demonisation of Israel, on the other hand. That is causality. The fact that we have a campaign of demonisation every time Israel has to defend itself against aggression makes for the correlation.

"Faulty causation fallacy"

Indeed. But too many here would fail Logic 100.001. Most antisemites do.

There are all kinds of other fallacies, e.g. that the EDL's response to racist divisiness is 'racist' and 'divisive', or that if the UN calls something 'illegal' then it follows that it must be illegal :)

Jose, that is an excellent point about Faulty Causation Fallacy. However, since the point was being made by a former Israeli Prime Minister -- and I believe Ehud Olmert is not alone in pointing out the cause-and-effect cycle between Israel's actions and a spike in antisemitism -- perhaps you should address your comments to him.

"Stanley what they are trying to tell you is that we are the iron fist now"

You must be one of the idiots who thinks it's morally superior to lie back and be murdered than to stand up for yourself.

"Then we can talk seriously about how to make Israel the State we can really be proud of -- humane, intelligent, achieving, an example to all nations. A legitimate State, in fact."

What a vile antisemitic statement.

Really tspam, you should read the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

First, you have to find the precise quote where Olmert said such thing, then I will explain you that such causality cannot be deduced from observation, only in statistical terms, then it's called "correlation". I would pardon Olmert if he ignored the correct term.
People who pretend to analyse political consequences should know better than that, though. But I have no doubt you won't, as you already proved twice not to be able to grasp it.

Stanley, please provide an example where ANY criticism of Israel is labelled antisemitic.

That is what you said.

Just one example.

Walinets, your assertion that Israel causes antisemitism is as crass, moronic and idiotic as saying that a battered wife brings it on herself.

You should be deeply ashamed of yourself for being on the side of the Jew-haters.

Jose, good morning. Here is the Olmert quote in full. I found it here and I've also seen it on Arutz 7's website.

Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said today that Israel’s “occupation” of Gaza was causing worldwide anti-Semitism. In his weekly cabinet meeting, Olmert said the restrictions on Gaza caused hatred, adding, “It should be remembered that we see the occupation as problematic.” The Prime Minister, whose government supports the removal of Jews from most of Judea and Samaria, added, “As long as this reality continues, it makes it possible to attack Israel and gives anti-Jewish sources the opportunity to be heard. The complicated situation we’re in encourages anti-Semitism. As long as we continue to be presented as occupiers, we’ll continue to suffer from anti-Semitism. We’d do well not to forget the overall picture and the complex meaning of being an occupier,” Olmert was reacting to reports of an increase in anti-Semitism worldwide since Israel’s Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.

Jonathan, good morning. Would you say that Ehud Olmert and other like-minded Israeli politicians are on the side of Jew-haters?

I would say that they are as thick as two short planks if they accuse Israel of causing antisemitism by defending herself. Not unlike you, in fact.
Of course, it's also possible that the words were mistranslated. We have seen this before. Or inaccurately or incompletely reported. Or they expressed themselves poorly.
Which part of the miniskirt analogy are you failing to understand?
Which part of the fallacy of appealing to authority are you failing to understand?

"Please consider this fact: by dismissing all criticism as 'anti-Semitic', Israel excuses herself from ever questioning her own behaviour"

That's 2 antisemitic lies in one sentence, one per clause. Quite an achievement.

Walinets, provide an example or withdraw the remark.

It is the favourite accusation of every Israel hater out there.

So, as you can see, Olmert never said that Israel's action causes antisemitism. Once again, tspam is shown to falsify quotes and making them mean what he believes they mean.

Naughty boy!

So first Olmert never said that Israel actions cause a surge of antisemitism, contrary to the assertion of tspam, but even if he ever said it, that would be mistaking cause with correlation.

The causes of antisemitism are well-known and not new. There was antisemitism much before Israel was reborn and it surged much higher than anything conceivable in the 1930s and 1940s, while Israel was not yet reborn.

The causes of antisemitism are multiple, among them of course, the intensive racist propaganda in Muslim countries, forwarded by tspam and his ilk.

In fact the miniskirt analogy, although excellent, should be taken further: Israel is endlessly attacked for defending itself, so the analogy is that we should blame the rape victim for fighting back against her attacker.

Sick.

Poor Yvetta retired early last evening with a raging tummy ache! She meant to post this:
"We must speak out and say that to Israel. Then we can talk seriously about how to make Israel the State we can really be proud of -- humane, intelligent, achieving, an example to all nations. A legitimate State, in fact."
In fact, that last sentence might have given me the tummy ache. Stanley is implying that Israel's legitimacy depends on Israel's conduct - or, rather, behaving as the JfJfP types would wish.
Absolutely shameful.

Stanley, I found this article pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable on a Jewish website .

Betrayal of one's own people is not just a Jewish thing, it is a human thing. There were blacks in apartheid SA who collaborated with the whites, just like there were Nazi sympathizers in allied countries. Unfortunately for us, Jews tend to show this trait far more then others.

The state of Israel doesn't do things so the world like us, they do it because it is necessary to protect Jews world wide. The state of Israel has created a new Jew, those who are not ashamed of who they are. These Jews don't go like lambs to the slaughter, they stand up and fight, and Jews who come on here and criticism Israel in public for the painful decisions it makes need to ask themselves whose side they are really on.

Amber, as you know, under Sharia law, a rape victim can be lashed for having had sex.

http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2010/01/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-t...

Robert, You expressed quite well the feeling of us all. Except of course of the few who would love Israel to disappear from this Earth.

Very well said, Robert.

Stanley, still no idea of when was the last time you criticised any other country than Israel, even for much worse behaviour than you accuse Israel to have?

Can you show us a trace of this criticism on Internet, please?

Jose, Good afternoon. What with all the quotes flying around here, it is surely hard to follow them all, but Olmert did say the following:

The complicated situation we’re in encourages anti-Semitism. As long as we continue to be presented as occupiers, we’ll continue to suffer from anti-Semitism. We’d do well not to forget the overall picture and the complex meaning of being an occupier,

That's how he explains to causal connection between Israel's actions and spikes in antisemitism.

Re that last quotation, t'sam, the BBC, the Guardian, and the rest of the Israel-libelling media are to blame.

Yvetta, that's a very good point. However, in this instance I'm afraid that someone else isn't to blame. As Mr Olmert points out, "We’d do well not to forget the overall picture and the complex meaning of being an occupier."

Another day, another dumb antisemitic comment from spammo.

"As long as we continue to be PRESENTED as occupiers, we’ll continue to suffer from anti-Semitism."

Now, look up 'presented' in your Ladybird dictionary, ask someone to explain it to you and then come back when you can make a semi-coherent argument.

Yoni1, good afternoon. I hope you are well. Yes, that's a very goos point, but Mr Olmert also said: "We’d do well not to forget the overall picture and the complex meaning of being an occupier."
This means that Mr Olmert views Israel as occupying the West Bank, as did his predecessor, Ariel Sharon.
Bibi Netanyahu has also made it clear that the occupation is doing Israel no favours. Does that mean that Messrs Olmert, Sharon and Netanyahu are antisemites? Or does it really mean that once they are in the Prime Minister's Office "things you can see from here, you can't see from there", as I believe Yehudit Ravitz's song goes.

"Jose"....is there any internet evidence that you have ever said anything favorable about any country other than Israel? If not, we can only assume that you never have.

Tspam, you poor reading skills are amazing. Olmert:

As long as we continue to be presented as occupiers, we’ll continue to suffer from anti-Semitism.

Do you understand? Who presents the Israeli as occupiers? They are the cause.
Antisemitism is caused by hate propaganda, Israeli 'occupation' is just one more opportunity to spread that hate. But it is not the 'occupation' that is the cause of the hate.

Like saying that winter in the cause of summer because there is always a summer six months after the winter...
But the cause isn't there: there is something else that cause the winter and six months later the summer.

I know, for some people, it is extremely hard to get.