Proud to be a Lib Dem Zionist

Matthew, you gave the game away when you revealed that you have not told Clegg that unless Jihad Jenny is given her marching orders from the Party, you will resign.

"I happily told this audience that I am a Zionist"

Words are so cheap, aren't they, Matthew?

"Just because I don't regularly get thrown out of public meetings and accused of having disrupted them, doesn't mean that I'm not a Zionist."

I have not seen you at a single hostile meeting in London to put Israel's case.

I have not seen you at a single demo to counter the boycotters at Ahava in Covent Garden.

Words are cheap....

And for the record I have NEVER been 'thrown out' of a public meeting, other than the special cases of Committee Rooms in Parliament. The Stalinists at "War On Want" banned me from their meeting to discuss a farrago of lies by Ben White, aka his so-called book entitled 'Israeli Apartheid', because they are scared of the truth.

I have been asked to leave meetings in the Houses of Parliament but this is because the Police there unquestioningly do the bidding of biased Stalinist Chairpeople who are unwilling to tolerate anyone who supports Israel.

You're all mouth. Let's see some action.

Jonathan, who precisely are you to question anybody's Zionist credentials? Actually, who are you?

Joe, you don't know who Jonathan is? THIS is Jonathan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBH6XONDpes&feature=player_embedded

The question is not if you are proud to be a Zionist as a LibDem, but rather if you are proud to be a LibDem as a Zionist.

Specifically, your blog post couldn't be published at a worse moment, since the JC published this:
http://thejc.com/news/uk-news/42524/corbyn-kaufman-tonge-loach-and-other...

What does it do to belong to the same party as Tonge?

Assuming that clip hasn't been tampered with, he seems to be very passionate, if a little crass. Making rude comments about some of the counter demonstrators' sexuality doesn't do his cause much good. At least they took it in good cheer.

Yes, I am proud to be a Zionist as a Lib Dem...I first joined the Liberal Party in 1986, when I was fifteen. I am a staunch Liberal Democrat and a Zionist. My point is that there is no contradiction between those two things. And it's worth pointing out there are other political issues beyond Israel - I'm not a single-issue fanatic, but am interested in the whole political agenda, not just the parts that involve Israel.

Words are not cheap, Jonathan, words are a form of communication - political discourse is conducted by people speaking, so to speak is to act, as you know, as you often speak and write yourself.

As for the letter in The Guardian - most of the politicians mentioned in that JC stories are actually Labour. Corbyn, Kaufman, Linton...I do not say that two wrongs make a right, but I am pleased that the letter has only been signed by some of my party's less prominent figures, whose signatures on this letter come as no surprise whatsoever.

It's hardly news that Messrs Hancock, Russell and McHugo share Baroness Tonge's opposition to universal jurisdiction. What is significant is that the Coalition Government is clarifying the law on universal jurisdiction, with the vocal support of my party's leader, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. That tells you far more about my party than do the entirely predicable actions of the people who signed this letter.

In just the same way, what matters is not what Corbyn, Linton and Kaufman say - what matters is that Ed Balls has committed the Labour Party to supporting the Government on this. We know that there are people on the Left, in my party and in the Labour Party, who are strongly critical of Israel. That's why we have Labour Friends of Israel and Lib Dem Friends of Israel - to win the debate with those people.

If anyone is arguing that it would be better to give up and stop trying to win the debate inside the Lib Dems or inside the Labour Party, then I have to say that I strongly disagree.

He stuck it up em didn't he Mr Mannering ?

Just to make it clear, Joe Millis' post ("Assuming that clip hasn't been tampered with, he seems to be very passionate, if a little crass. Making rude comments about some of the counter demonstrators' sexuality doesn't do his cause much good. At least they took it in good cheer.") is not a reference to the clip that I posted, but is presumably a reference to a clip of Mr Hoffman.

Sorry, Matthew, should have made that clearer.

Maybe they were well prepared?

ris you are not allowed to imply such things on the jc

Jonathan, who precisely are you to question anybody's Zionist credentials? Actually, who are you?

Every person who did not make alyah can see his Zionist credentials questioned. Obviously, Matthew Harris lives in UK so why not? You can also question Jonathan Hoffman's credentials if you wish. I guess he would not mind.

I prefer to use "pro-Zionist", instead of "Zionist", for those who support the right of Jews to settle in the area, without thinking they will themselves go there to live and participate to the ongoing building of Israel.

Yes, I am proud to be a Zionist as a Lib Dem.

At least, it proves you don't read before answering. I asked you the reverse question. Are you proud as a Zionist to be a LibDem, ie in the same party as Tonge.

http://thejc.com/news/uk-news/42524/corbyn-kaufman-tonge-loach-and-other...

What does it do to belong to the same party as Tonge?

Yes, as someone who is happy to call myself a Zionist, I am proud to be a Lib Dem. I am proud to be taking on people like Baroness Tonge in debate in the hope of minimising their influence. Would you rather that I did not do this?

Yes, as someone who is happy to call myself a Zionist, I am proud to be a Lib Dem. I am proud to be taking on people like Baroness Tonge in debate in the hope of minimising their influence. Would you rather that I did not do this?

I don't want to minimize Tonge's influence, I want to eliminate it totally. Until you're able to do that, I have no interest in the LibDem whatsoever.
It's just as if you asked me if I would not prefer 10 million flu death rather than 100 million. I want no flu, full stop.

Thanks, Jose, you can choose to have no interest in the Lib Dems whatsoever, but there'll still be a Lib Dem party, whether you like it or not, and it's currently part of a Coalition Government, hence the importance of engaging constructively with the party's leadership so that they hear all sides of the debate on issues relating to Israel, including the pro-Israeli side.

Incidentally, I'm not currently running for anything and there's no election on - I'm not, on this blog, seeking to persuade anyone to vote Liberal Democrat. I'd obviously be delighted if everybody voted Liberal Democrat, but that's not the purpose of this blog. The purpose of this blog is to comment on relevant things that interest me, many of which involve the Lib Dems, because I'm a Lib Dem Friend of Israel...But this isn't intended to be a "rah rah, vote for my party" blog - it's intended to be a forum for debate, including people who have no intention of ever voting Lib Dem.

Matthew: Thanks for replying to my questions in the other thread. I just think it's a shame that Nick Clegg's support for Israel came about two years after it was really needed - then again I can say the same thing for a number of Conservatives too.

If someone had stood up and said what he said during or shortly after Operation Cast Lead I would have had immense respect for them. But very few politicians did. Nobody ever does when it really matters, they just play it safe and keep quiet until it's all blown over. What Britain really needs in stressful times like that is clear leadership.

I just wish our political classes would have more courage. These are the people we are meant to trust to protect us from the same murderous idiots that Israel is up against. If they won't stand up for Israel, how can we believe they'll stand up for us?

It does not please me that a party which includes Tonge is a member of a Coalition Government at all. I don't want parties that condemn antisemitism in words while condoning it in facts (by keeping antisemitic members as if it was a minor offense).

On these blogs, you are more a LibDem than a friend of Israel. A friend of Israel would clearly ask Tonge to be sacked. Never saw that in your prose.

Bravo, Matt!

Political parties don't 'sack' people. She's not the party's employee. It doesn't work like that. All political parties include some people whose views I might find detestable. They don't all get 'sacked'. The only place from which she could be 'sacked' is the front bench, and that's already happened.

Lots of MPs from all three parties, including at least two Conservatives, signed this EDM opposing the upgrade of Israel's association agreement with the EU (http://website.thejc.com/home.aspx?AId=52996&ATypeId=1&search=true2&srch...). The EDM accused Israel of "grievous human rights abuses".

But I don't hear anyone saying that they won't touch the Conservative Party until the MPs concerned have been 'sacked' from that party. That's because people have a sense of proportion - they judge the Conservative Party by what it says, and what it does in government, rather than judging it by the words of a few backbench MPs. I would suggest that people apply a similar sense of proportion to the Liberal Democrats.

Of the MPs (not peers) who are most prominent in the pro-Palestinian cause, I would suggest that most (e.g. Corbyn and Kaufman) are Labour, not Liberal Democrat. Those of my party's MPs who tend to campaign on this issue are frankly not among the best-known politicians in the country...There are strong elements of the liberal left that are very critical of Israel. Inevitably, they number some Liberal Democrats among their ranks. Frankly, I am genuinely pleased that they include nobody more prominent than a couple of backbench peers like Baroness Tonge and Lord Phillips.

And I repeat, the best way to win a political argument is to engage in a debate, rather than to walk away and concede the field to the other side.

Matthew get real the lib dems are finished and deservedly so

People are more inclined to believe Tony Bliar then they are a lib dem . How much more dire can it get ?

I can't wait for the day when the right honourable Nicholas Clegg goes back to the good burghers of the constituency of Sheffield Hallam and says " trust me "

Political parties don't 'sack' people.

Try your propaganda on someone else, with a better chance. Anyone can exclude a member on the reason that he or she does not live up to the standards of the party.

While the LibDem standards allow them to keep someone as Tonge, I'm not interested in what the LibDem has to offer to Israel.

and i say that as someone that voted for you xxxxs

and i say that as someone that voted for you xxxxs

You see, Matthew?

And I'm pretty sure my opinion on Tonge and the desastrous effect it will have on your party is shared by most in the UK Jewish community, at least all those whose IQ is over 80.

Now, if you wish to attract the antisemites, please keep her. But you won't have your cake and eat it.

Re:- Armchair Quarterback's comments, I refer you to this piece by Mary Ann Sieghart:http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-ann-sieghart/mary-ann-sieghart-a-party-that-is-growing-up-in-public-2158709.html Let's see what happens between now and 2015.

And I somehow managed to post that link incorrectly, here again: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-ann-sieghart/mary...

You know the person I feel most sorry for in all of this is the lib dem MP for Lewes. The Brighton kids are after her ass and you do know what that means don't you ?

Matthew Harris: "Political parties don't 'sack' people."

http://hurryupharry.org/2010/09/21/lutfur-rahman-suspended-from-the-labo...

For someone who claims to be interested in politics your knowledge is abysmal.

Going through the constitutional process of expelling or suspending someone from a political party is not the same as arbitrarily 'sacking' them; nor is it usually a power that is within the personal gift of a party's leader.

You feel sorry for the MP for Lewes because "the Brighton kids are after her ass"? This gets more intriguing by the minute. The MP for Lewes (which is not in Brighton) is a gentleman by the name of Norman Baker. An ass is a biblical donkey. Have I slipped into a parellel universe in which students are travelling from Brighton to Lewes to pursue a biblical donkey owned by a non-existent female MP? So no, I don't know what that means. But thanks for trying.

My final comment is this. Most Liberal Democrats (by which I don't mean Baroness Tonge, et al) who have campaigned for the rights of the Palestinians have done so from the best of motives, within the context of the party's policy of supporting a two-state solution that would bring peace, justice and security to Israelis and Palestinians alike.

They have done this because they have been told by the mainstream media that the Palestinians are suffering and they have, not unreasonably, believed what they have been told. Friends of Israel's task is to inform such well-intentioned people of the full complexity of the situation, so that they understand the case for Israel and the challenges that Israel faces.

Some people reading this may not understand why these Liberal Democrats care about trying to prevent avoidable suffering in the first place, because some people reading this have forgotten (if they ever knew) what it feels like to be moved by the perception that other people are suffering. As Nick Clegg recently put it:

"Liberal Democrats have always supported a two-state solution that would bring peace, justice and security to Israelis and Palestinians alike. The quest for international justice is close to the heart of all Liberal Democrats. This sense of justice has led many Liberal Democrats, myself included, to campaign hard for the rights of the Palestinian victims of the Israeli/Arab conflict.

"That campaigning for justice for the Palestinian people has been heard loud and clear from the Liberal Democrats. It should always have been accompanied, equally loudly and equally clearly, by an awareness of the security challenges faced by Israel and of the right of Israel to defend itself against the threats that it continually faces.

"However, I’m not certain that we Liberal Democrats have always made ourselves clearly heard on this, so let me say it again now: Israel’s right to thrive in peace and security is non-negotiable for Liberal Democrats. No other country so continually has its right to exist called into question as does Israel, and that is intolerable. There can be no solution to the problems of the Middle East that does not include a full and proper recognition of Israel by all the parties to the conflict."

"....the right of Israel to defend itself against the threats that it continually faces."

But Clegg wanted to put an arms embargo on Israel during Cast Lead.

You are attempting to defend the indefensible. It is very boring and demeaning and far from a pretty sight.

Matthew, when the LibDem will start to try to attempt to begin to proceed with the expulsion procedure of Tonge?

And I'm pretty sure my opinion on Tonge and the desastrous effect it will have on your party is shared by most in the UK Jewish community, at least all those whose IQ is over 80.

And non-Jews with any sense of decency.

To be honest someone who thinks Jews control the world and goes around saying it in public meetings has no place in British politics. It displays appalling stupidity, insensitivity and prejudice.

Jonathan, the party you supported at the general election is far from clean when it comes to Israel and Zionism.
Who can forget David Cameron in East Jerusalem or William Hague on Gaza? Lord Patten is still a Tory as far as I am aware. And I am willing to bet that a fair few Tory MPs and peers will vote for an amendment on the Police Bill that will prevent any changes to Universal Jurisdiction.
And then, in the not-so-distant past, there were William Waldegrave and David Mellor, neither of whom was sacked from the Front Bench (unlike Jenny T).
And wasn't it Maggie Thatcher who expelled Israeli diplomats over something or another? And you remember Heath, don't you? An arms embargo and preventing US arms to go through Britain in 1973.

Apparently Matthew is evading the issue. There must be a way to expel from a party someone who does not fit within the party. Racism is one such cause that may require expulsion, in any DECENT party I mean...
Then maybe the expulsion is a loooooong process, but if no one starts this process, it will never end except by the fatal surge of hate that will choke Tonge to death.

When do you start the process of expulsion, Matthew? Haven't you any interest, as a supposed friend of Israel and someone who cares about the morality of your party, to have Tonge expulsed from it?
That is very strange!

joemillis lives in the past. Thatcher and Heath are gone. We are interested in knowing which party is today the best supporter of Israel, the one that we are less likely to regret having voted for, tomorrow.

I wonder what would happen if a Lib Dem politician said in public "the reason Britain does not invade Zimbabwe is because blacks have a stranglehold on British politics"?

Am I missing the difference?

Matthew you continue "to flog your dead horse" on these blogs.
The only way you can restore any credibility for yourself would be for you to actively pursue Tonges expulsion from the Liberal Democrats, and for you to post a letter to that effect to your boss on this web site.
Time for excuses has long passed.

I wrote this letter to Mr Clegg on the 13th November 2010, to which I have not had a reply.

Dear Mr Clegg,

We have been in correspondence previously and I am grateful for the time and trouble you have taken to write to me in the past.

I have to take issue with your liberal peer Jenny Tonge who in yesterday's debate in the Lords on the Strategic Defense Review, said:-

Prevention of conflict also means that we must start being honest about international law and UN resolutions. It is a disgrace to us all that problems such as Kashmir and Palestine are still alienating Muslims all over the world. The treatment of Palestinians by Israel is held up as an example of how the west treats Muslims and is at the root cause of terrorism worldwide. Even Tony Blair has now admitted this publicly. [JH: No he has not] Why do we let it continue? Is it Holocaust guilt? We should be guilty-of course we should. Is it the power of the pro-Israel lobby here and in the USA? I do not know. Or is it the need, maybe, to have an aircraft carrier called Israel in the Middle East from which to launch attacks on countries such as Iran? The cynic might think that that is why HMS "Ark Royal" and the Harriers can be dispensed with-we already have a static "Ark Royal" in a strategic position, armed to the teeth and ready to fight, provided that we do not offend Israel. I feel sorry for the people of Israel sometimes. Their Government's policies have made that country the cause of a lot of the world's problems, yet now they are seen in the middle as the remedy and the base for the west to fight back.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldhansrd/text/101112-0...
This is in stark contrast and directly opposite to your efforts to improve the relationship of the Liberal Democrats and the UK’s Jewish Community as reported on the front page of the Jewish Chronicle 12th November 2010.
The is just another one in a series of anti-Semitic outbursts from Ms Tonge, too many now to be considered gaffes – the woman is just an out and out anti-Semite.
I am now requesting that your party takes action against Ms Tonge and removes the whip and you remove any association from her with the Liberal Democrats.
I am a regular blogger with a series of media, this letter and your reply will be published.
I thank you for your time.
Yours sincerely
Jon Cohen
Cc Bob Blackman MP Harrow East

Exactly Jon, exactly Matt !

Keep up the pressure jose!

Keep up the pressure jose!

Well, in fact I haven't yet started to apply it!

Am I missing the difference?

The difference is that being anti-Black is racism. Being anti-Jews is just anti-Zionism! Or the reverse? No, can't be! [sigh]
Well, I'm not sure now!

Here's another one:

The root cause of Irish terrorism is the persecution of Christians in the Arab world. The reason the government won't do anything about that is because of the Muslim lobby.

How long would Tonge's political career last if she said that I wonder? Hmmm.

Jose remind me what double standards are a sure sign of again?

For your example, you should rather say that anti-Muslim racism has its roots in the persecution of Christians in the Arab world...

Jose remind me what double standards are a sure sign of again?

Antisemitism!!!

Yes but the left will undoubtedly say that anti-Muslim racism is also the fault of Israel - in fact they are already trying to link the EDL with the ZF.

Basically, everything is Israel's fault. British racism, British terrorism, all the fault of Israel. It couldn't possibly be due to social problems that we have to deal with.

Never mind the fact that our dear beloved Palestinians wrote the book on suicide bombings and aeroplane hijackings. Let's blame their victims.

Yes but the left will undoubtedly say that anti-Muslim racism is also the fault of Israel

Then, that would be applying double standards! And double standards are a sure sign of....

The name of the game is "tails, I win, heads, you loose!".

Yes but the left will undoubtedly say that anti-Muslim racism is also the fault of Israel

Then, that would be applying double standards! And double standards are a sure sign of....

The name of the game is "tails, I win, heads, you loose!".