Oh, what a circus


By telegramsam
September 29, 2010
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Who is running Israel?
Last night, at the UN, its "foreign minister", Avigdor Lieberman, said that there could be no peace deal with the Palestinians for generations, adding that there would need to be population swaps too between Israeli Arabs and settlers. Does he mean the Galil and Negev too where there are now Arab majorities?
Lieberman: My views are 'clear, consistent, known to all'
But Prime Minster -- or is he? -- Binyamin Netanyahu says that a permanent deal can be reached in one year (despite doing all in his power to prevent this) Netanyahu, Lieberman spar as FM says no peace ‘for decades’
Who's in charge and will Bibi rid Israel of its turbulent priest of the far right? (Yes, I know Rasputin was Russian and Lieberman is Moldovan, but it's the same neighbourhood).

COMMENTS

stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 10:34

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" Lieberman is making a liar out of Netanyahu."

" Netanyahu invested a lot of effort in trying to convince the world that he is serious about peace.Then along comes Lieberman and tells the world leaders that its all crap,that Netanyahu is faking........Lieberman challenged him and made him out to be a liar in front of the whole world........Israel showed the international community on Tuesday that the country is ruled by a circus and not by a responsible government with a policy. ""

Aluf Benn


zair (not verified)

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 11:29

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I think the far right in Israel are a useful negotiating tool for Bibi. He can always blame them if things go belly up.


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 11:43

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Mr Lieberman's speech to the UN is set out below - please telegramsham point out one item that even remotely talks of expelling Arabs from the Galilee - something which he pointedly denies. In fact I challenge you to find any part of the speech that is racist in nature. Whereas not a word was said when Abbas in an interview with Egyptian media said that quote "Not one israeli would live in a Palestinian State" - now that's apartheid!

Mr. President, distinguished colleagues, ladies and gentlemen,

When I arrived yesterday in New York, I received a phone call from the chairman of one of the Jewish organizations who asked me how I am coping with all the pressure which is being placed on Israel. Surely, he said, it must be very difficult. I recalled an old joke which speaks of five Jews who changed the way we see the world: Moses, law is everything; Jesus, love is everything; Marx, money is everything; Freud, sex is everything; Einstein, everything is relative.

So I told him that everything is relative. On one hand, it's really difficult. On the other hand, it is easier than before, because now we have a stable coalition, stable government and we have the support of a majority of Israel's citizens.

We are ready for a fair solution and we are ready to cooperate with the international community. However, we are not ready to compromise our national security or the vital interests of the State of Israel.

At the outset, I want to emphasize that contrary to what is often shown in the international media, the political arena in Israel is not divided between those who seek peace and those who seek war. Everyone wants peace and the controversy in Israel centers on the specific question of how to achieve this peace; how to reach security and stability in the region.

And the question is: why, during the seventeen years since we signed the Oslo Accords, have we not arrived at a comprehensive agreement signifying the end of the conflict and the removal of future mutual claims?

Despite all of the efforts of all the good people with the best of intentions, including Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, despite the summit meetings at Camp David between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat with the presence of former President Bill Clinton, and despite the Annapolis Summit between Ehud Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas, we are today still in deadlock.

In fact, contrary to the prevalent view that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the heart of the instability in the Middle East or is the main reason for the region's numerous conflicts, the reality is entirely different. More than ninety percent of the wars and war victims of the Middle East since the Second World War did not result from the Israeli Palestinian conflict and are in no way connected to Israel, stemming rather, from conflicts involving Muslims or conflicts between Arab States. The Iran-Iraq war, the Gulf war, the wars between North and South Yemen, the Hamma atrocities in Syria, and the wars in Algeria and Lebanon, are just a few examples of a list that goes on and on.

The second flawed explanation for the longstanding conflict between Israel and the Palestinians which has gained popularity is that the root of the problem is the so-called "occupation", the settlements in Judea and Samaria and the settlers themselves. Only the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, so the argument goes, will ensure peace in the region. It is sufficient to state a number of well-known facts in order to refute this claim:. Frstly, all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza were under Arab control for 19 years, between 1948 and 1967. During these 19 years, no one tried to create a Palestinian state.

Peace agreements were achieved with Egypt and Jordan despite the presence of settlements. And the opposite is also true: we evacuated twenty-one flourishing settlements in Gush Katif, and we transferred more than 10,000 Jews and in return, we have Hamas in power and thousands of missiles on Sderot and southern Israel.

The other misguided argument is the claim that the Palestinian issue prevents a determined international front against Iran. This argument is not only flawed, it is completely irresponsible: the same argument could be made that the Palestinian issue prevents action on North Korea, piracy in Somalia, the humanitarian crisis in Sudan or the challenge of Afghanistan. Just as the Khomeini Revolution had nothing to do with the Palestinian issue, so too is the Iranian decision to develop nuclear weapons unrelated.

In truth, the connection between Iran and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is precisely reversed. Iran can exist without Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah, but the terrorist organizations cannot exist without Iran. Relying on these proxies, Iran can at any given time foil any agreement between Israel and the Palestinians or with Lebanon. Thus, in searching for a durable agreement with the Palestinians, one which will deal with the true roots of the conflict and which will endure for many years, one must understand that first, the Iranian issue must be resolved. One must deal first with the root of the problem and not its symptoms.

There are of course other problems as well which must be solved and this is not a sufficient condition. But it is nevertheless a necessary one. In trying to resolve the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, we are dealing with two types of problems: emotional problems and practical problems. This is why the solution must also be a two-staged one.

The emotional problems are first and foremost the utter lack of confidence between the sides and issues such as Jerusalem, recognition of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish People and refugees. Under these conditions, we should focus on coming up with a long-term intermediate agreement, something that could take a few decades. We need to raise an entire new generation that will have mutual trust and will not be influenced by incitement and extremist messages. To achieve a final status agreement, we must understand that the primary practical obstacle is the friction between the two nations.

As is true everywhere, where there are two nations, two religions and two languages with competing claims to the same land, there is friction and conflict. Countless examples of ethnic conflict around the world confirm this, whether in the Balkans, the Caucuses, Africa, the Far East or the Middle East. Where effective separation has been achieved, conflict has either been avoided, or has been dramatically reduced or resolved. Consider the cases of the former Yugoslav republics, the split-up of Czechoslovakia and the independence of East Timor, as cases in point.

Thus, the guiding principle for a final status agreement must not be land-for-peace but rather, exchange of populated territory. Let me be very clear: I am not speaking about moving populations, but rather about moving borders to better reflect demographic realities.

Ladies and gentlemen,

This is not an extraordinary insight, and is far less controversial than some may seek to claim. In fact, precisely this notion – that a mismatch between borders and nationalities is a recipe for conflict – has long been accepted as a virtual truism in the academic community.

Leading scholars and highly respected research institutions have even coined the term "Right-Sizing the State" to capture the idea that states and nations must be in balance in order to ensure peace. This is not a controversial political policy. It is an empirical truth.

But beyond empirical truth, there is historical truth: almost 4000 years during which the Jewish People were born in the Land of Israel, while developing the corpus of ethical and intellectual treasures that have been instrumental in giving rise to Western Civilization. 2000 years of forced exile, and interim conquest by Byzantines, Arabs, Mamelukes, Ottomans and others, cannot, and never will, impair the unbreakable bonds of the Jewish People to its homeland. Israel is not only where we are. It is who we are.

In closing, let me remind everyone in this hall about the quote that adorns the United Nations plaza outside, spoken in Jerusalem almost 3000 years ago by the Jewish prophet Isaiah:

וְכִתְּתוּ חַרְבוֹתָם לְאִתִּים, וַחֲנִיתוֹתֵיהֶם לְמַזְמֵרוֹת--לֹא-יִשָּׂא גוֹי אֶל-גּוֹי חֶרֶב, וְלֹא-יִלְמְדוּ עוֹד מִלְחָמָה
“They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Inspired by the deep wisdom embodied in these words, let us hope that the path to true peace prophesied by Isaiah, will guide our two peoples, in two nation-states, living in peace and security.

Thank You.


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 11:54

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you gotta admit a country in which a half witted fascist like Lieberman can rise to high office has some serious thinking about itself to do


Akiva

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:15

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Oh look, moronic lefties make accusations lacking any shred of evidence to back them up! Never seen that on the JC Blogs before!

Lieberman isn't far right at all, just look at the above quoted speech. He's in support of a two state solution that isn't Israel and Jordan.

He is only partially right however. There will be no agreement at all, not even in decades. Why? For the same reason there wasn't an agreement previously, the arabs either don't want it or don't have the clout to accept it.

So they keep endlessly adding on these rules that never existed before, such as Jews are no longer allowed to build homes (yes, Jews. Israeli arabs can and do build both legally and illegally everywhere in the region) Then they throw a hissy-fit when they don't get what they want, like a baby throwing the toy out of the pram. You call that an attitude for peace?


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:16

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Stephenb, Lieberman's not a half-wit. You dismiss him as such at your peril. He's much more dangerous to Israel than that.


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:18

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Stephenb please direct us to one part of Mr Lieberman's speech that is remotely fascist or half-witted. Tell the truth Mr Lieberman for a jew-baiter like you is your biggest nightmare - since he demolishes all your arguments - and I neither support him or his party which makes it all the more gratifying.


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:23

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Yes telegramsham you dismiss him at your peril because he more than has your measure. I am still waiting for an answer to the questions I posed at 11:43 but I do not suppose even you can lie your way out of them.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:24

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Advis3r, yer boss wants to have a population swap that takes into account "moving borders to better reflect demographic realities".
There is a non-Jewish majority in Galil and Negev (because Israel diverted resources to colonising the West Bank in an act of unprecedented genius), ipso facto these areas must be swapped with the colonies.
Lieberman also said: "Peace agreements were achieved with Egypt and Jordan despite the presence of settlements"
Yes, the settlements weren't an issue for Jordan because there were none on Jordanian land (it had relinquished its claim to the West Bank in the 1970s or 80s). But not everyone has forgotten that Israel dismantled the Sinai settlements for peace. Israel will do the same with the West Bank colonies.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:28

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No, Advis3r, I don't dismiss Lieberman at all. I just laugh at him and his "diplomacy". Everything he touches turns to mould.


Akiva

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:43

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Everyone remembers how arab terrorism has increased every time Israel has bought into the foolish land for peace ideal. There will not be another Gush Katif. Unfortunately for you Sammy Boy, Israel is a democracy and the democratic will of the electorate is turning against your half-baked leftist rants spewed ad nauseum.

Until you can prove how Jews building homes is an impediment to giving up murdering innocent civilians and is somehow not racist, then your arguments have no basis in reality.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:47

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To paraphrase Kissinger: "When I want to speak to Israel, who do I call?"
Netanyahu to US: I'm leading Israel's policy

Or in Hebrew


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 12:48

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Advis3r, the only one who can dismiss Lieberman is Bibi, but he'd have to grow a pair to do that.


amber

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 13:13

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stephenb, do you know what fascism is?

If in doubt, look at your friends in Hamas run Gaza, or Fatah run PA.


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 13:39

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"Israel will do the same with the West Bank colonies" - dream on - by the way they are as much colonies as Edgware is a colony of London!

Read my posts I neither support him or his party but he sure gets up your nose which pleases me no end.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:02

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Forgive me, advis3r, if I don't believe you about support for Lieberman's party.


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:06

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Stephenb please direct us to one part of Mr Lieberman's speech that is remotely fascist or half-witted. Tell the truth Mr Lieberman for a jew-baiter like you is your biggest nightmare

Mr Advis3r sir !!! I'm an accomodating kinda person. What say I direct you to Liebermans sayings that are fascist and / or half witted and you direct me to anything I have said that is anything remotely likr jew baiting. Deal ? ok you first.

Hi Amber xxxxx !!!!


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:10

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No Stephenb I asked first - I am not so accomodating to a jew baiter. Let's see what you've got by reference to speech please.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:13

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Advis3r, tell you wot, Maaleh Adumin can be a suburb, like Edgware, of East Jerusalem -- under Palestinian control.


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:23

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i didnt refer to the speech o))


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:24

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I don't think Stephenb is a Jew baiter but I've heard rumors that he's a master.......


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:25

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Telegramsham why should it?


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:26

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Iris quit that my mum reads these blogs


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:31

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Well, Advis3r, if israel wants to continue to exist as a Zionist enterprise (Jewish state/state of the Jewish people), it will have to relinquish the West Bank. If it doesn't relinquish the West Bank, it will become a binational state.


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:37

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stephenb - To assist you please provide evidence that Mr Lieberman is a half-witted fascist or withdraw the comment - simple!
telgramsham - I neither support Mr Lieberman or his party - if you don't believe me so what - i won't lose any sleep over it?


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:45

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Telegramsham -Please explain why if israel does not relinquish Judea and Samaria it will become a bi-national state? To follow your argument through to its logical conclusion Israel should just agree to dissolve itself now after all it already has a sizeable non-Jewish population as you have pointed out living in the Galilee etc. but maybe that is what you are advocating.


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:51

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ok ill provide the evidence thenj it will be your turn ok ?


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:53

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an i wont even mention the goats but i cant guarantee Amber wont


Watchful Iris (not verified)

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:55

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Are Amber and Stephenb.......naaaa


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:56

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Pretty obvious, isn't it Advis3r. Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there are currently 5.5 million Jews and 6.5 million non-Jews (Israel proper 1.5 million, West Bank 3.5 million, and Gaza 1.5 million). That makes Israeli Jews a minority in the areas Israel controls. Even Bibi knows this. The outcome: a binational state.
Now, if Israel were to divert the resources it wastes on the West Bank (colonies, military to guard the colonies, roads for the colonies, infrastructure for the colonies, grants and subsidies for colonists etc), to Galil or the Negev, it might just resolve the growing social problems in those areas (poor schools, no industry, scant healthcare) and therefore make these areas appealing. Who knows, maybe British Jews won't have to raise funds for the northern border areas. Why should such a rich country like Israel get schnorr anyway?
And just think, if Israel were to build a massive airport near Beersheba, near Ir ha'Bahadim, link it with high-speed rail and road to the centre, north and to Eilat, it would help create employment, take the hub away from the crowded Gush Dan -- which even the Israel Airport Authority says is dangerous -- and reaffirm the Zionist dream.


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 14:57

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no iris not until i get coclusive evidence that amber isent presbytarian


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 15:00

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maybe bibi doeasnt want to put you out of a job sam


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 15:04

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There he goes again Israel has vacated gaza has left gaza is no longer in Gaza. Therefore deduct 1.5 million that leaves 5 million by your count however as Moshe Arens writing in Ha'aretz put it:-
Some of those Israeli advocates of the "two-state solution" who trumpet the demographic danger facing Israel may have had a few sleepless nights after perusing the latest demographic report released by the Central Bureau of Statistics on the eve of Rosh Hashanah. As has been claimed by Yoram Ettinger for the past few years, it turns out that the demographic demon is not what it's cracked up to be. Now it's official. Demography seems to be working in favor of the Jewish population.
You really didn't have to be a professional demographer or statistician to realize that modern times, higher living standards, better education for women, and more women entering the working population were going to reverse the demographic trend of past years. But preconceived notions of permanent fantastic birth rates among Arab women, supported by effective propaganda, have thrown a scare into many of Israel's Jewish citizens. They were made to believe that they were being threatened by a flood of Arab babies that would soon turn the Jewish population into a minority west of the Jordan River, and that salvation lay only in the "two-state solution." Of course, the demographic demon is not the only - and not even the most convincing - argument for establishing a Palestinian state west of the Jordan. A lot is to be said for dividing the area west of the Jordan between Jews and Arabs in an attempt to settle once and for all the 100-year conflict between Jews and Arabs. Like King Solomon's decision in biblical times, it seems at first sight the just solution. Give each his share of the land he covets and let peace come to the land. No matter that it would not exactly end up being consistent with the popular slogan "two states for two peoples," but rather, as things stand now, three or maybe four states for two peoples - for the Palestinians a state in Jordan, a state in the West Bank and a state in Gaza, and for the Jews a state with a significant Palestinian minority in Israel.
So why do the advocates of the "two-state solution" also drag in the demographic demon, claiming that this "solution" is essential for the continued existence of Israel as a "Jewish democratic state," or in other words, which are endlessly repeated, that continued Israeli control of Judea and Samaria means that Israel would either cease to be a Jewish state or cease to be a democracy?
The answer is obvious - to scare those Israelis who hesitate to part with the biblical heartland of the Land of Israel into accepting this "painful" compromise. In using this argument, seemingly so concerned with the democratic nature of the State of Israel, they turn a blind eye to the sensibilities of Israel's Arab citizens. What they are saying, in so many words, is the fewer Arabs in Israel the better. That may strike a responsive chord with some of the marginal elements in Israeli society, but it is neither democratic nor civil. That kind of talk cannot be music to Israel's Arab citizens.
Now that the demographic demon seems to have been put to rest, where does demography enter the argument about Israel's future? Most Israelis are determined to assure the state's Jewish character, linguistically and culturally, while respecting the language and culture of its Arab citizens. We insist on continuing with the mission that the Jewish state has set for itself of providing a haven for those Jews throughout the world who may need one. What happened during the Holocaust can never be allowed to happen again. This requires a substantial Jewish majority.
How big a majority? That's a question that needs to be pondered. Is the present 80 percent Jewish majority sufficient? Is it just right? Is it already too high? Would a reduction to a 70 percent Jewish majority be a catastrophe? Is it solely a question of numbers or is it also a function of the degree to which Israel's minority population has been integrated into Israeli society? Difficult and inconvenient as these questions may be, they need to be addressed, with full consideration for the sensibilities of our Arab citizens, if we want to discuss our future intelligently. Now that we have at least partially quantified the problem, let's discuss it.


Advis3r

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 15:09

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Chag sameach!


stephenb

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 15:16

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well add in the growing number of israelis whose zionism consists of the simple to wish to live on the land and arent obsessed with any political expression of zionism ( maybe a million ? ) and for the jewish state obsessives it makes messing about over the two state solution a very high risk strategy.

but hey oh the choice is yours


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 16:02

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Advis3r, Israel still "controls" the Gaza Strip (the flotilla screw up and the brave boarding of the activists' yacht, the control of its skies and what goes in and out is evidence of that). Israel may have left, but the finger prints are still there.
Moshe Arens? As a hardline jabotinskyite revisionist, he's hardly a dispassionate observer, is he?
And the Central Bureau of Statistics is a quasi-governmental Israeli agency, and its political bent is well known, as is Amos Ettinger's (He worked for Begin in 1977).
Funny how you seem to think that because of modernity etc etc, Arab population rates are falling (perhaps wishful thinking on your part), while those of the Chareidim -- who are for this purpose like the Arabs -- who live in the same modernity etc etc etc are staying the same or rising. You don't have to be a genius to work out that with better healthcare, more children are staying alive, both for the Palestinians and the Chareidim.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 16:10

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Sorry, Yoram Ettinger, not Amos.


amber

Wed, 09/29/2010 - 23:16

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oh dear, stephen the Jew hating twat thinks he's funny.


ibrows

Thu, 09/30/2010 - 10:06

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Those who do consider Lieberman 'extreme-right wing' are clearly missing the fact that he has long been an advocate of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Israel. Not quite sure how you interpreted this as being interested in peace?

He seeks to transfer Palestinians from Israel into a future Palestinian state, he seeks to force them out of Israel - SIMPLY FOR BEING PALESTINIAN.

THE SINGLING OUT OF ONE GROUP, WHO ARE THEN SUBJECTED TO DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT AND EXPELLED IS CLEARING ETHNIC CLEANSING. plus, he is ignoring the fact that these Palestinians have lived in what is now Israel, for generations prior to 1947, these Palestinians within Israel have rights, but Lieberman is only interested in the rights of Jews.

In order to test the nature of this 'so-called peace proposal' we simply have to reverse the policy and see how it would be viewed if a promient Palestinian politican was advocating a 'land swap' involving Jews??? Clearly, it would be attacked as ethnic cleansing, its the same when such a policy is applied to Palestinians.


amber

Thu, 09/30/2010 - 11:33

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So ibrows, you must clearly be campaigning against the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab wrold, which is now almost complete - as opposed to the fantasy you hold dear.


happygoldfish

Thu, 09/30/2010 - 12:05

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ibrows, your lying about lieberman only makes him seem reasonable by comparison!

what lieberman advocates is not ethnic cleansing

ethnic cleansing was defined by a 1993 un commission (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing ) as …

the planned deliberate removal from a specific territory, persons of a particular ethnic group, by force or intimidation, in order to render that area ethnically homogenous

and of course, dictionaries agree that it involves expulsion (or killing)

lieberman is only advocating re-drawing the international boundary according to racial criteria …

we can argue over whether that's racist, but perhaps it suffices to point out that that is the way almost every international partition is decided, including the 1947 uk partition of kashmir, and the 1947 un partition of palestine into (i quote) a "jewish state" and an "arab state"

ibrows: if a promient Palestinian politican was advocating a 'land swap' involving Jews???

erm but they don't have any jews to swap!!

(unless you're referring to swapping the settlements? )


Advis3r

Thu, 09/30/2010 - 18:17

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One of the Jewbaiters - Moshe Arens? As a hardline jabotinskyite revisionist, he's hardly a dispassionate observer, is he?
And the Central Bureau of Statistics is a quasi-governmental Israeli agency, and its political bent is well known, as is Amos Ettinger's (He worked for Begin in 1977).
Obviously you attack the messenger when you have no response to what they say. Even when your ad hominem attacks lack any credibility.
The other Jewbaiter - has still not produced evidence of Liebermans fascism - so a lying Jewbaiter.


Advis3r

Thu, 09/30/2010 - 18:24

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ibrows - "He seeks to transfer Palestinians from Israel into a future Palestinian state, he seeks to force them out of Israel - SIMPLY FOR BEING PALESTINIAN"

No you lying toad read his speech he advocates a redrawing of the borders so that Arabs living in Israel will be part of a Palestinian State and Jews living in what would be a Palestinian State would be in Israel.
So simpleton to explain if say today you were living in the the London Borough of Camden and the Government of the day decided to redraw the constituency borders so that your house was to be in the London Borough of Hackney would you say you had been ethnically cleansed from the London Borough of Camden as a result?
You consistently lie - Jewbaiter!


stephenb

Thu, 09/30/2010 - 20:39

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Adis3r you seem very easily baited hopefully your determination to be a victim keeps you warm at night

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