Netanyahu condemns rabbinic racism. At last


By joemillis
December 7, 2010
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Binyamin Netanyahu has had harsh word for the 50 state-employed city rabbis who signed an halachic fatwa forbidding Jews to sell or rent properties to non-Jews. It's all here

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu criticized on Tuesday the call by dozens of rabbis not to sell or rent apartments to Arabs.

Speaking at the opening of the National Bible Contest for Adults in Jerusalem, Netanyahu said "How would we feel if someone overseas said that it is forbidden to sell apartments to Jews? Such things should not be said, not by Jews and not by Arabs. Such things should not be said in a democratic country, especially not in a Jewish and democratic one."

The prime minister's comments come after over 40 municipal rabbis signed a petition on Tuesday quoting Shas spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, that Jews should not rent homes in Israel to gentiles.

Apparently he also quoted Rabbi Akiva and Devarim (Deuteronomy), just in case the rabbis didn't understand "Jewish" or "democratic".
What the rabbis had said was if a Jew sold or rented property to a gentile, his neighbors must warn him, and if he does not change his ways, the neighbors must avoid the person, and may not conduct business with him, according to the petition. A person who rents or sells to non-Jews also may not get aliyahs in synagogue.

Amongst the municipal rabbis who signed the petition are Rabbi Yaakov Edelstein of Ramat HaSharon, Rabbi Haim Pinto of Ashdod, Rabbi Dov Lior of Kiryat Arba, Rabbi David Abuhazeira of Yavne, Rabbi David Bar-Chen of Sderot, and others.

In addition, one of the best-known National-Religious rabbis, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, signed the letter, as did Yosef's son, Rabbi Yaakov Yosef. Haredi leader Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and Rabbi Avigdor Neventzal of Jerusalem's Old City also signed the letter.

They are a disgrace to Israel and Judaism. They must be sacked.

COMMENTS

mattpryor

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 18:00

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It's good that Bibi has condemned it, but a quick Google search for "rent to non-Jews" reveals that the original story has already spread like wildfire while there aren't too many references to the condemnation (that I can find).


joemillis

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 18:02

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He's only just condemned it, within the last hour or so. Give 'em a chance


mattpryor

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 18:09

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Ah okay, I'll wait for the balanced and even-handed world media to make sure people understand that these rabbis are a tiny minority and are not supported by government.

You know they won't though, right?


Yehuda Erdman

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 18:11

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Not renting to Arabs is racism pure and simple, and in a democratic modern state this outmoded behaviour must not be tolerated. It may be that some rabbis signed up in a show of "solidarity", so as to present a united front to the authorities. This is because they are employees of the state and if they knowingly break the law they risk punishment including dismissal from their posts.


mattpryor

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 18:33

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Yehuda: I can't and won't blame people for being prejudiced against Arabs given the history and current fears and tensions. I don't live there so it's not for me to judge. But I will say that one only has to look to the UK, Belgium, France, Germany to see how the rest of the world reacts to perceived cultural / demographic threats (EDL, burkha bans, etc) - it's not pretty.

Israelis are (on the whole) behaving admirably, under much greater pressures, and we in Europe could do much worse than to follow their example.

I am very proud of that little country, and I wish more people in Britain could be as tolerant, relaxed and fair minded.


Marian Lebor

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 19:46

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Oh dear. I know some Shabbat-observant Israelis who are on a two-year posting abroad and they have rented out their house to a non-Jewish diplomat. I wonder if they are aware of the terrible sin they have committed? Am I allowed even to tell them?


Akiva

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 20:13

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In case people didn't notice, there just so happens to
be the two greatest Gedolim of our Generation among the signatures (HaGaon Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita and HaGaon Yosef Shalom Elyashiv shlita)

Why would the Gedolei Yisrael add their names to this if the media and those without first hand experience would inevitably use it to add fuel to the anti-religion fire? I can think of a few reasons:

1. In Israel properties bought by Arabs DECREASES the real estate value of the neighbourhood.

2. Linked to the above, a recent poll shows a majority of Jews, secular and religious, would not want to live in a neighbourhood with arabs. (It also shows a majority of secular Jews wouldn't want to live in a neighbourhood with religious Jews, but that's another story.)

3. Arabs are often the source of both physical and emotional abuse of Jews, this can even include intentional disruption of Shabbat. The Shulchan Aruch states that in all these cases a seller must be willing to go to great personal expense to prevent/remove the problem.

4. It increases the risk of inter-marriage (see: The Diaspora)

The main reason from the above however, is almost certainly real estate values. This isn't racist. This isn't unreasonable. How would you feel if your property devalued by tens of thousands of shekelim because a neighbour sold his to an arab? Cheated?

Once again our Rabbonim think of all of Klal Yisrael. Once again the media and the leftist/secular Jews think only about how others will perceive them.


Geoffrey Paul

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 21:00

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Is that the same Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said the Holocaust was punishment for six million sinners,
that Hurricane Katrina was directed at the New Orleans [Black!] godless, that the Carmel fire was
God's punishment for Sabbath desecration, that Israel's Supreme Court is staffed by worthless, evil
people?? Oh, for Heaven's sake! Where are you coming from? Get out there and smell the Good Lord's
wonderful fresh air....


Akiva

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 21:35

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I fail to see what quoting media sources which took Rav Ovadia Yosef's shiurim out of context have to do with anything in this topic? Perhaps if Rav Yosef's was the sole signature...

Come back when you can argue with the points I raised.

Also, you could do with learning some manners.


Akiva

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 21:36

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*good manners.


joemillis

Tue, 12/07/2010 - 21:55

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Akiva, every point you raised about decreasing property values to increasing intermarriage (in Israel? Are you kidding? What's the percentage of intermarriage there?) was once uttered by antisemites about Jews. We brought down property prices. We were "dirty and intimidating" (Have you heard of Mesmer? Have you read Oliver Twist?) We destroyed the neighbourhoods. And for us, they locked up their daughters.
I'll tell you something. The biggest sin these so-called gedolim (actually, if you know any Hebrew, they are quite katanim and katnonim) have ever committed has nothing to do with their hatred and racism (although that is bad enough). It's the fact that they have made a mockery of Judaism and have made most Israelis hate the religion.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 11:09

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The problem here is that those denigrating the Rabbis see this as a purely racial matter. The Rabbis do not see it as a racial matter but as a religious matter which is why confusing race with religion and calling them racists does not work. Saying that someone is not welcome because he is Jew is racist because it matters not what religion you are, since Jews have unfortunately adopted many religions other than their own. However so far as the Rabbis are concerned it does not matter what race you are and the Israeli Jewish sector of the population is made up of many racial backgrounds including as it does native South Americans and native Africans. What the rabbis really want to ensure is that there is no assimilation/inter marriage which is one of the biggest threats to the Jewish people today. Thus their call for religious (not racial) segregation, something which until now was understood with Muslim and Christian Arabs and Jews (with only a few exceptions) opting not to live in mixed neighbourhoods. I am not sure property prices are what exercise the Rabbinical minds since in many Charedi neighbourhoods prices are kept within everyone's reach by a Vaad rabbonim to prevent speculation. I do not see those calling the rabbis racists calling the Northern Irish clergy racists yet they preach and ensure the practice of almost complete segregation between the Protestant and Catholic sectors of the population something which is also practised by Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims not to mention Christian and Moslem Arabs. In India the Muslims and Hindus also do not fully integrate. The Rabbis are not calling for the expulsion of gentiles who make a substantial contribution to this country only that Jews should when selling/renting their properties consider very carefully the possible negative impact on their Jewish co-religionists who (with no consultation) will now be obliged to live in a mixed community. Where for example their children will be exposed to non-Jewish and in some cases anti-Jewish influences which thankfully living within a totally Jewish environment (which I believe is a raison d'etre for having a Jewish State in the first place) they would not be. Joemillis this has been done out of love for their fellow Jews so simply calling them racists and terming this a cause for hatred of the religion I regret shows a complete lack of understanding of their intentions. Obviously I expect those living in the UK see this differently but that is because there religion in general has ceased to play a central role in life with many people turning away from it.


mattpryor

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 11:24

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Advis3r I understand what you mean, and I don't think it's racism either. Racism is taking a dislike to people based on their ethnicity - a genetic thing - whereas this is more of a cultural thing. Calling it racism is a huge simplification.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 11:48

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Advi3er and Matt, sorry guys but that's just excuses. It's racism pure and simple because it is a dislike of people based on their ethnicity (in this case, Arab or mainly African and Asian foreign workers). The racist rabbis haven't said anything about Jews in Tel Aviv or elsewhere renting or selling property to white Christian diplomats.
They opened their gobs only when the state-employed rabbi of Safed became irate at Jews renting property to Israeli Arab students, and when the rabbis of Bnei Brak suddenly noticed that there were an awful lot of foreign workers about. Perhaps if their disciples did a bit of grafting instead of sitting on their lilywhites, there would be no need for foreign workers.


mattpryor

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 12:06

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Joe: As I said above without living there it's impossible to know how people feel, so I'll reserve judgement.

But if the word "racism" is widened to include disliking other cultures or not wanting to lose ones own cultural identity, then I think you'll find most British people are quite racist too.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 12:20

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Matt, it's not about culture. It's about ethnicity. It's about these rabbis hating Arabs, Africans and Asians. They have until now not had a problem with Jews renting/selling to White Christian diplomats or businessmen/women. Now they've woken up to the Arab students in Safed and the foreign workers in Bnei Brak and elsewhere.
They are a disgrace. They receive a salary from the state and they should be sacked and prosecuted under Israel's incitement to racism laws.
But that won't happen, because they have friends -- Ovadiah Yosef, Shas, United Torah Judaism etc -- in low places who will protect them.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 14:51

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Joemillis it is obvious you are not open to debate you have decided the rabbis are racist and hate all kinds of people when I put it to you the argument is about religion. Until now (62 years after the State was founded) they have not stipulated that Jews should not rent to Arabs so insted of mouthing off why not think about what has changed and the need to preserve the Jewishness of the State which this edict seeks to achieve. In any event this is a matter of halacha which I put it to you you have no competence to argue against. You are obviously looking at it from a non-Jewish perspective which would seek to deny the rights of Jews to protect their way of life. However if you want to talk about a disgrace - Professor Sternhall who incited Arabs to kill Jews living in Judea and Samaria is to receive a prestigious prize instead of being charged with criminal incitement.


Armchair Quarterback

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 15:12

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If this isn't racism the word has lost all meaning

What a tangled web we weave when we duck and dive and weave.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 15:21

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Advi3er, in order to preserve the Jewishness of the State of Israel, Israel doesn't need to heed racist rabbis who suddenly wake up and shout gevalt when they see Arab students renting flats in Safed or foreign workers doing the same elsehere.
In order to preserve its Jewish identity, Israel should look at how it can preserve a Jewish majority and at how it can teach a love of Judaism, something in which these turbulent priests have failed catastrophically.
The biggest sin these rabbis committed -- with the support of their political parties and successive governments who kowtowed to their every whim and meshuggas -- is to create hatred of the religion and to spread sinaat chinaam among Jews who do not agree with them.
Where were these rabbis when white Christian business people and diplomats bought/rented in Israel? Why did they fill their mouths with water (Hebrew for went schtum) then and not now? It's racism that's why.
I don't care about Sternhall. We're talking about 50 state-employed rabbis, not one academic.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 15:22

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Just a query, Advi3er, how would you define the Jewishness of the state of Israel?


Jewish American...

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 15:42

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I had to pinch myself to believe what is being written here. The sheer ugly unmitigated racism of the apologists for this policy leaves me feeling sick. The capacity for denial and obfuscation is beyond anything I have previously experienced even in the American south.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 15:50

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Jewishnes of the State of Israel - To answer this question I would draw your attention to an essay by HaRav Ariel Bar Zadok(http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/israeldemocracy.pdf) Where he says quote:
“It is easy to wave the flag of democracy and demand that every aspect of the state of Israel be entirely democratic. However, this absolute definition and application of democracy is a sure way to destroy Israel from being a Jewish state. Moreover, if Israel were to stop being a Jewish state then what justification would there be for it to exist in the first place?
The State of Israel was established to serve as a national homeland for the Jewish people. It was not established to serve as a state like all others. It was not established to serve as a “state of all its citizens,” meaning to give equal democratic access to non-Jews living in the country to participate in the erasure of the Jewish nature of the state.
Yet, if the state accepts non-Jews as citizens and does not extend to them the democratic right to vote and to influence the entire nation through their political agendas, then this is not the definition of democracy, at least as it is defined and practiced in western so-called democratic nations today.
Therefore, we have the dilemma. To have a Jewish state means there must be, by the nature of the state and its government, a curtailment of the parameters of democracy to allow for the continuation of the Jewish character of the state. This would therefore be defined as a limited democracy. To have a completely democratic state means that there must be the political framework in place to undermine and dispose of the Jewish aspect of the Jewish state and to replace it with something else democratically elected upon by the majority vote. Moreover, as said above, if Israel were to cease being a Jewish state and a national Jewish homeland, then it would loose all legitimacy to exist as a state in the Middle East surrounded as it is by a hostile Muslim population who hate it and Jews down to their very souls.
The answer to the contradiction is rather simple and easy. I have already suggested it above. Israel needs to define herself as a state of limited democracy. It needs to exist as a Jewish state and as nothing less, for as we know, nothing less, will soon lead to nothing at all.
Israel needs to cease its irrational pursuit of pleasing western powers and mimicking
western ideals and mores. Israel is a part of the Middle East. It is not the 51st state of the United States, nor is Israel a nation of Europe. The western model cannot and does not fit the Israeli modality.
Israel, in order to survive must live by its own standards and follow its own course.
Every single other nation does this. Every nation on earth places its own national ideals and needs primary when implementing national policy. Israel also must take into account what is best for Israel and Jews first before it decides to placate western and other powers.”
I suggest you and the other visitors to this blog read it all.
In answer to your latest post whilst i note you don't care about someone calling for the killing of Jews which by your definition makes you some kind of racist too as I said what the rabbis have said has everything to do with religion and nothing to do with racism since for example an Arab who has converted to Judaism would not be covered by the edict although he is still an Arab. The Rabbis did not just wake up to this. You obviously have no idea why this has been published now.The signatures were collected by a kolel student from Netanya who chose to appeal to municipal chief rabbis following the uproar caused by Safed rabbi's call not to rent apartments to Arab students in the city. He approached the public servants and not yeshiva heads in order to emphasize that the ruling does not reflect a political view but rather a standard halachic ban. This law was not just made up its publication now is a reflection of changing times in Israel and the fact that people have become lax in its observance.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 15:55

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Jewish American I would draw your attention to Rabbi Zadok's essay - Israel is not a state of the USA we are allowed to live by our own rules to preserve our Jewish way of life which rules in some cases are much more liberal than those in the USA - e.g. we don't operate the death penalty - that's democratic? Maybe if you lived here instead of there you would understand what it means to really be Jewish.


Jewish American...

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:02

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This post by Advsr just about says it all doesn't it ? Jewish democracy is a contradiction !!!!! What an admission


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:08

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Advi3er. That's great. But that's a problem. You see without Israel being both "Jewish" and "democratic" it will cease to be Israel and the majority of Jews will cease to look to it or support it. It's already lost a lot of its charm.
Beyond that, I would guess that a large number of well-educated, salary-earning, tax-paying, middle-class Israeli Jews would decide that genug is genug and look to pastures new. I gather that increasing numbers of those with the possibility of having EU passports -- through parents and grandparents who fled the Old Countries -- are seeking to live elsewhere.
Here in London there are at least 70,000 resident Israelis and that's nothing compared to the million-plus in the US.
So what will Israel do, and how will it fare, without all those tax payers? What will happen to the high-tech miracle? And what about relying on the support of the non-resident constituency, the diaspora?
I don't care why this racist rabbinical fatwa was published now. "Why" is irrelevant when dealing with racism and racists. Its moral equivalency at its very worst.
And when it comes to Sternhall et al, I will not play the game of manufactured offence or victimhood. I leave that to others.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:08

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Jewish American is that an argument? You could not in the time it took you to post another slur have read the article I referred you to and obviously have no interest in being educated. If you are Jewish and you do live in America I again suggest you come and live here and then you can pontificate - as if the US is so democratic and does not, when circumstances demand it, suspend democracy. By the way someone on the Ynet website has made this comment:
"We have every interest in encouraging Arabs to leave Israel, to make them unwelcome. Their own behavior is to blame. If this was about peaceful Buddhists, the rabbis wouldn't have said a word.
This is not racism, this is self-defense against an hostile minority that itself has racist views.
Our cowardly politicians would like to sweep this under the carpet, they prefer the make-believe over reality.
And Peres is the last person to talk about ethics."


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:17

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Advis3r makes the point, you cannot have an unfettered totally free Democracy, you have to have controls and boundaries.
We do not want a totally free Democracy in Israel, Israel is a state for the Jews; that is not racism.
If others want to live in Peace and Harmony with us there, they are welcome to.

If they want to encourage de-legitamisation and terrorism then, no, they are not welcome in Israel.

In an unfettered Democracy the Liberal loonies soon take control, as in this example in the UK:-

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/the-stupidity-of-democracy


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:25

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Well, Jon, if Israel isn't Jewish and democratic, then it ceases to be Zionist. And it ceases to be Israel.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:25

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Ah joemillis you are in the UK the bastion of democracy - However when it suits Britain it also suspends democracy. In fact many countries are more democratic than Britain. The British travelled all over the world to slaughter natives and loot their lands, London's mayor Ken Livingstone calls Jews Nazis, Prince Harry dressed up as a Nazi, you shoot unarmed men and call it counter-terrorism but condemn Israel when it kills admitted terrorists, you go into Iraq for no reason and slaughter tens of thousands, you boycott Israel for treating Palestinian Arabs a lot better than the British are treating their Iraqi Arab cousins, and you don't boycott much worse human rights abusers across the globe e.g China, because it is not in your national interest do so, so please don't call these Rabbis racist when what they are doing is protecting our national interests because it does not fit in with your definition of democracy.
It may have escaped your attention but the Jewish population of Israel is growing and the Israelis living in London/USA do so for many reasons not as you suggest. Do I take it you are one of the single digit number of members of MeretzUK since what you say reflects what MK Talab El Sana (United Arab List-Ta'al) said when in the Knesset plenum he referred to the rabbis as "scum of the earth", claiming that "they are not rabbis but racists." He was rightly ejected for this. So did you copy him or did he copy you?


Jewish American...

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:25

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Keep on posting Jon and Advsr you are being extremely revealing. Not that we didn't know all this but it is jaw dropping to see it admitted so openly and unashameadly


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:48

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Jewish American other than for ad hominem comments you have not addressed any of the arguments. Someone reading this blog would be drawn to the obvious conclusion that you have nothing of any relevance to say. What is it that you find so jaw dropping that Israel in order to preserve its Jewish identity the reason for its existence does not conform to your idealistic and totally unworkable idea of democracy? Even your own country does not, otherwise there would be many more Mexicans living legally in America wouldn't there?


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 16:49

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Advi3er, indeed Britain did, does and will do all those things.
I couldn't care less about Harry, Wills or any one else in the royal family. But when he did dress up as a Nazi, he was condemned by all and sundry -- and he apologised. Have the racist rabbis apologised?
Ken Livingstone is a joke. And guess what? He was kicked out by the electorate. Have the racist rabbis been kicked out?
British clergymen or imams, who are not employed by the state, have not issued edicts saying that people should sell/rent to Jews. If they did, there would be a gevalt here. And the Israeli government would justifiably be ranting about antisemitism.
You use a lot of "you" as if this is some kind of collective punishment or guilt.
I don't boycott Israel.
I do boycott Chinese good, when I can.
I am not a member of MeretzUK or any other Israeli party. I don't see the point of having representatives of Israeli parties here - from Meretz to HerutUK and Mizrachi.
I have, however, voted in several Israeli elections, from 1977 onwards, always for centrist parties -- Dash and Shinui, Kadima and Labour.
I didn't call the rabbis "scum of the earth". But they are racist. So your argument about Talab al-Sana is a bit of straw man.


Akiva

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 17:08

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Look at all the armchair commentators, who have no experience, throwing out the racist card.

This of course, coming from the very same armchair commentators who ignore how Arabs in Judea/Samaria caught selling/renting land to Jews are BRUTALLY KILLED.

Regardless, I'd like to pose a question. Why does this ban only pertain to Arabs and not all non-Jews? You can say it's racism against the Arabs or you can look at it as being just plain realistic.

No other group of people cause such deliberate and wanton acts of physical/emotional abuse on the Jewish people in Israel as Arabs. This is a fact.

No other group of people moving into a Jewish neighbourhood will devalue the real estate of surrounding properties by tens of thousands of shekelim.

If YOU were faced with these problems then the answer is simple. The Rabbonim are being real. Unfortunately, many of the lefty posters here are not.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 17:10

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Akiva, that argument has been used so many times before -- by antisemities about Jews. Racists don't need excuses. racists need scapegoats. The Arabs and the foreign workers are the racist rabbis' scapegoats just as the Jews were Moseley's scapegoats.


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 17:30

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And, when the "boot is on the other foot", Arabs perpetrating racism against Jews, who cares?, certainly not any of our lefty friends on this blog!

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/so-its-ok-for-the-arabs-practise-racism


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 17:35

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Jon, we are talking about racist Israeli rabbis. All the rest is manufactured offence.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 17:37

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And Jon…I voted Tory in the last election, Boris in the mayorals and for Ukip in the European one. In what way does that make me a "lefty"?


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 17:38

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Shinui a centrist party? You mean like the SWP? Shinui was an anti-religious and following its merger with Meretz an extreme left wing party so your comments that the rabbis are racist must be seen by readers of this blog in that light - as a former supporter of Shinui you are per se anti-religious and should have declared your interest. If the rabbis told you must keep shabbat you would not do so, would you? The rabbis have made a ruling which will be accepted by those who accept their authority, it is not the law of Israel which has been changed just a restatement of halacha, you do not live in Israel and you do not accept their authority so why are you so exercised by their pronouncements or in fact concerned anyway? The moral inversion of comparing what was meted out to the Jews by the blackshirts with the statement of rabbis of halacha beggars belief.
By the way you said it yourself Israel is a Jewish and Democratic country, the democratic is subservient to the Jewish not the other way round.


joemillis

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 18:00

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Yes, Shinui was a centrist party. A free-market-supporting, secular party. It was in no way "left". In fact, it was quite right wing. I didn't vote for it when it merged with Meretz. I voted for it when the late great Tommy Lapid led it.
And to describe Shinui as anti-religious is reductio ad absurdum. It was against the charedim and their abuse of power. Israel must be the only country in the world where a coalition government means capitulating to every whim and demand of small, extremist and sectorial parties, rather than finding some common ground. Even the Lib-dems here have given up on some of their ideals.
The rabbis, in a democratic state, should have no authority. They should be cut adrift from the state.
And when I said Jewish and democratic, it means an equal footing to both.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 18:24

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So joemillis you would say that the governors of the JFS were acting as racists when they refused an halachically non-Jewish child entry to an orthodox Jewish school - the two cases are analogous the criteria being the religious status of the person according to Jewish Law not his race which unlike his religion is unchangeable.
So being against "Charedim and their abuse of power" is not anti-religious? Except that was not all Shinui was against - from their manifesto quote: "Shinui fights against religious coercion and for a secular state with room for all opinions and beliefs. Extortion and exploitation of the public treasury for religious purposes have to end. The ultra-Orthodox establishment is a threat to the orderly administration of a free society and to the individual freedom that characterizes a democratic state. Attempts to turn Israel into a state based on Halacha (Jewish religious law) endanger our future. We seek to separate state and religion, while preserving the country's Zionist character." so not against religion?
Democracy and judaism cannot be on an equal footing and snd to say so is missing the point because as I mentioned above to have a Jewish state means there must be, by the nature of the state and its government, a curtailment of the parameters of democracy to allow for the continuation of the Jewish character of the state. This would therefore be defined as a limited democracy. To have a completely democratic state means that there must be the political framework in place to undermine and dispose of the Jewish aspect of the Jewish state and to replace it with something else democratically elected upon by the majority vote e.g. a Shariah State. Is that what you want?


Armchair Quarterback

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 18:54

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too late too late the cat is out of the bag

It has long been obvious that the real existential danger to Israel is not Arab armies or Palestinian terrorists or Iran but the danger ( nay certainty ) of collapsing under the weight of it's internal contradictions.

Many thanks to Advsr for articulating these internal contradictions far more eloquently than I ever could have.


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 18:56

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From the Israel Matzav blogsite
"These rabbis certainly don't need my approval to express their opinion, but let me point out that there is a specific prohibition in the Torah against selling or renting land in Israel to non-Jews (Deuteronomy 7:2 and see Rashi's commentary there). Of course, that's not going to bother Israel's Leftists:
MK Nitzan Horowitz (Meretz) called on Tuesday for these to be fired.

"This is the worst kind of racism, which comes from rabbis who are paid by the state" Horowitz said on Tuesday. "All they do is encourage hatred and destroy Israeli democracy."
Many of them are actually not paid by the State and cannot be fired. But that's beside the point. In most places in Israel, Jews and Arabs do not live together. This is not America or even Europe, and neither side wants to live together. That doesn't mean that they're formenting violence or hatred against each other. No rabbi is calling for murdering Arabs who buy in Jewish neighborhoods, and certainly not for murdering Jews who sell to Arabs. Unlike the 'Palestinian Authority,' Hamas or Jordan, all of whom have a death penalty for anyone who sells land to Jews."


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:02

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Armchair Quarteback - "the danger ( nay certainty ) of collapsing under the weight of it's (sic) internal contradictions." and that of course would make you happy? However the more you boil us the harder we become - dream on!


Armchair Quarterback

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:07

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No it would not make me happy.But I doubt that you are capable of understanding so....


amber

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:11

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armchair, your previous posts have indicated that it would indeed make you happy - yet another lefty idiot who has it in for Israel.


Armchair Quarterback

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:11

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There is always the option of dealing seriously with the internal contradictions and creating a genuine western style democracy.This would of course entail dispensing with the " Jewish democratic state " nonsense which you your very self have admitted is a contradiction. Should I hold my breath ?


Armchair Quarterback

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:23

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Amber it makes me happy to see that you are paying attention


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:29

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Now of course Mr Armchair Quarterback you reveal that you are of course against the concept of a Jewish state per se (and perhaps against Jews too?) so why are you posting here and not on CIF where you can post your anti-Israel/anti-Jewish muck with your like-minded chummies to your heart's content. BTW why should Israel be a truly western style democracy (whatever that may mean each country in the West has its own concept adopted to suit its own nationality - the EU notwithstanding)? Perhaps you mean like France which bans the burka - Israel does not - so who are the racists?


Armchair Quarterback

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:44

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oh dear I seem to have become the issue. Time to bow out


Advis3r

Wed, 12/08/2010 - 19:45

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Good riddance!

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