Mick Davis: ZF Response

I think I trust Simon Rocker more than I trust your attempt at whitewashing.

The press release troubles me in my capacity as Chair of Meretz UK. It states that the ZF are more in the centre, but ignores the fact that e.g. Meretz UK is affiliated to the ZF and has been for much longer than many of the right of centre groups now shouting the odds about how much more Zionist they are. Meretz UK was formerly Mapam UK and previously Hashomer Hatzair UK with a history going back at least to the second world war. Indeed Yigal Alon who was a heroic figure in the War of Independence and later Deputy Prime Minister, was a member of Mapam when he served the Zionist movement in London in the 1940's.
I do not deny your belief that the ZF needs to present a more balanced and factual position on events, but if you care to look at some of the material flooding on to the JC blogs from e.g. Mr Hoffman, it is the very opposite of balanced and factual. It has got so bad that he is regularly reported to the Moderator for foul language, ad hominem attacks and general bullying of anyone who opposes his opinions. Moreover he also expresses as fact what is clearly his own opinion, and surely the ZF should restrain him in this. After all you have stated in the press release that you wish there to be a "a more balanced and factual position".
Put your own house in order before making comments about "the failure to reach a two state solution". I am not denying that the Palestinians must also shoulder much of the blame for that but Israel must face up to its failings also.

I am not denying that the Palestinians must also shoulder much of the blame for that but Israel must face up to its failings also.

Putting on the same level the failings of the 'Palestinians" and those of Israel is already bias.
When one wishes to put his house in order, he has ton consider first the biggest challenge and not start by picking un specks of dust where there is hardly any.

I do not normally comment on ZF matters here but since Erdman has attacked me personally, I will.

I was democratically elected as Vice Chair. You could have stood against me. You did not. Don't now whine about the result of the democratic election. Meretz is a leftwing party which has just three seats in Israel and three men and a dog in the UK. You are not exactly representative. Did you also whine about the election result in Israel?

It is your opinion that what I write here is "the very opposite of balanced and factual." Please give examples of anything I have written which is not accurate.

You say "It has got so bad that he is regularly reported to the Moderator for foul language, ad hominem attacks and general bullying of anyone who opposes his opinions."

You have no idea what happens with the Moderators, this is pure defamatory conjecture.

Let's see you attack those who libel me on this blog -- not me.

Jose

"I am not denying that the Palestinians must also shoulder much of the blame for that but Israel must face up to its failings also."

Is that so?
Please start listing here each and every single one of Israel's "failings", before the Intifada in 1990.

Please also give dates, and referencial data that can be checked, i.e. evidence for every point you raise.

Thanks

Yehuda

"The press release troubles me in my capacity as Chair of Meretz UK."

I never heard of you. How many "members" do you have in your Meretz UK? 2? LOL!!

I loathe these personal attacks on Jonathan - and on Jonathan's integrity. We badly need more communal leaders of his ardour and capacity - people who tirelessly and for no material reward defend Israel from obloquy and are not afraid of the stings and arrows either of antisemites or malicious denigrators in Anglo-Jewry.
Great and perspicacious people like Isi Leibler and Melanie Phillips have praised Jonathan's worth; it's outrageous that he is not better appreciated. For if he didn't exist he'd have to be invented.
As an Aussie, used to strong, firm and valiant communal leadership, loud and clear in its support for the Jewish State, I despaired of the Anglo-Jewish leadership (a few honourable exceptions notwithstanding)until I clicked on my TV set one evening and saw Jonathan, fearlessly and ably presenting Israel's case despite a baying audience composed of the usual suspects.

Well said Yvetta!

Thank you

@Erdman

You seem to think that the fact that Meretz started in the 1940s entitles you to defame me.

It does not.

SadSpam is a lying hypocritical irrelevant insignificant obsessive vexatious little pisher.

Yehuda

Don't join the gangs attacking Jonathan. It aligns you with the bullies like Tsam of this world and I think you're above it.

Tsam doesn't realise it, but in his vicious attacks against Jonathan he's actually helping the case of the EDL.

We don't all have to agree, but personal attacks reflect so badly on the writer.

So, t'sam, you're a voting member of the ZF?
In the programme I saw, Jonathan was the very model of an articulate gentleman. There were catcalls from the as-a-Jews in the audience and the elderly yekke ones who still seem to feel that it is incumbent upon them to disdain the ostjuden as they did pre-war were implying that he was nothing but an ill-bred not-quite-Englishman because they kept telling him in superior strident tones not to be rude or to interrupt.
I could not believe what I was seeing or hearing - he was neither rude nor interruptive: they were describing their own behaviour!
A certain well-known blooger once mentioned to me that he'd been in the studio and that the spiteful atmosphere generated by those types was even nastier than it looked in the edited programme.

tspam's personal attacks on Jonathan are ridiculous. He is a broken record, repeating ad nauseam his agenda driven hatred. It is like a playground bully.

Why is this allowed to continue?

Jonathan, lying yada yada, hyprocritical yada yada, vexacious yada yada. You don't half do yourself some damage. No wonder you didn't get elected.

For anyone who has started paying attention to these blogs late in the day I suggest you trawl back through Jonathan's older blog posts to see the kind of abuse he has been subjected to here by telegramsam and other (anonymous) snipers who attack from behind pseudonyms.

Here is a classic example:

http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/kill-jews

I think it's disgraceful behaviour, akin to sitting at home and writing hate mail. I don't know why it is tolerated, and it distresses me to see others jumping on the bandwagon.

He gets what he deserves. That's why he failed in his bid to become ZF chairman.

tspam, you're an egotistical bully. I think you should get what you deserve.

Whilst you're just a failure as a human being.

Jonathan, you should know you have many admirers. Ignore these haters. They must be very unfulfilled in their private lives.

Jose
"I am not denying that the Palestinians must also shoulder much of the blame for that but Israel must face up to its failings also."
Is that so?
Please start listing here each and every single one of Israel's "failings", before the Intifada in 1990.

You poor reading skills did not allow you to recognize a quote of the author of the text?
In other words, you attribute to me what I was precisely criticizing in my comment and that you did not read at all.

Please, try to improve your reading skills and attention span.

As I have ben away for less than a day, let me take a few comments at once.

Hoffman

You are a Vice Chair of the ZF and I would expect you at that level of seniority to act with more decorum. Others have leapt to your defense but they tend to be those that express similar views to yourself. Being British I was brought up to show respect for others and a love of fair play, so maybe you need to climb down from your high horse and accept that as Vice Chair of the ZF you should uphold the right of everyone within the organization (including Meretz UK as you have acknowledged we were there before you were born!) to also have a say. Blogs are there for the exchange of opinions in debate.
I did not defame you, any neutral person reading through your posts would describe me as mild-mannered in comparison to your vitriolic outbursts. Obviously you have a short fuse, but you need to read carefully what you post as well as the replies, as you regularly miss the point of what others are trying to tell you.

Jose

Your comment is fair and I should have made my remarks clearer. When I wrote "put your own house in order", that was aimed at the ZF, and I meant that they should be looking at the material Hoffman broadcasts in the JC Blog, with a view to toning down his material. As you see he is a Vice Chair of the ZF.

In your response to Ufara Bat-Ashera I think you were quoting from my post. My take on the mistakes that Israel made before the Intifada with respect to making peace with the Palestinians, should logically start with 1967. Very early after the 6 Day War Israelis at the highest level referred to the area conquered as "the Territories" akin to the colonialists in the 19th century talking about land captured from e.g. the North American Indians. They began to think in terms of permanently expanding the borders of Israel (the so-called Greater Israel) and this became official policy of successive Israeli Governments of the left and right. When Sharon was given Ministerial responsibility for developing the territories he tackled this task with great enthusiasm and a long term strategic approach to "create facts on the ground".
It does not take a genius to figure that the more settlements are erected on land that would one day form part of a Palestinian State (albeit this recognition of the two state solution did not come till after the Oslo agreement), the harder it would be to unravel the mess.
A few of the Israeli Prime Ministers including Peres, Rabin, Sharon and latterly Netanyahu had belatedly recognized that in order to avert the disaster looming on Israel by the failure to partition Israel/ Palestine (the so-called demographic time bomb), they would have to reach an agreement with the Palestinians.
It should never have taken more than 43 years to make a deal with the Palestinians, after all less than 30 years after the end of World War II, the former arch enemies (including Germany, France, Italy and the UK) formed the EC which has since grown and effectively prevented future wars in Europe.

Ufara Bat-Ashera

If you want to know more about Meretz UK just google that name and you will see that we have a regular programme of activities in this country and are also affiliated to the World Union of Meretz which has members in about 20 different countries. In conjunction with partners at the 36th World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem this summer we were the biggest faction and defeated the right wing with their allies regularly.
You are not original in your sarcasm about our membership and perhaps if you are in the London area you might visit when we have a meeting and learn a lot. Certainly "more than 2" will be there.

mattpryor
You are right to condemn the "hate mail" and we must all see to it that all sides in this debate moderate their language.

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