Letter published in JC today about Ahava demos

Regarding enquiries about the ZF, the adddress for letters is here:

Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland
BM BOX 1948
London WC1N 3XX
office@zionist.org.uk

You will understand that you need to use your real name/address to get a response.

But still no dissociation, although this is a good first step

Interesting side step, so this is a Jonny Hoffman production, after all these weeks you finally come out with it. Still at least the ZF now don't have to explain the 'back room' dealings with the EDL, wrt the Ahava demo.

Yep it was all self promotion and it appears the zf has rightly slapped him down for besmirching its name.

telegramsam,

You refer to Jonathan Hoffman's "self promotion". I find such criticism quite bizarre. Do you suggest that he should cease to exist and only write using a pseudonym? (how about "Jonny B Good"?)

Whilst you refuse to reveal who you are, is it really reasonable to criticize somebody who does?

JH,

"In the UK we have the freedom to protest. Do you suggest that Israel activists should run away when the EDL shows up? Our malevolent critics (many of whom are hardline Communists) can always relocate to Gaza or Tehran, where the authorities decide who can demonstrate on the streets. Why have they not done so?"

Of course you are 100% correct. But the EDL issue is actually a shmalz herring. The real aim is to stop people like yourself supporting Israel on the streets of London.

Strangely enough Stephen Pollard wrote a blog a while back, stating that the burka should not be banned since he wants to be able to have the right to wave the Israeli flag in public. I was shocked by this analogy. But I wonder when Mr Pollard was last seen waving his flag in public. I can't imagine that he has ever turned up outside Ahava with it!

Stephen Pollard,

I find it quite strange that your paper did not interview Jonathan Hoffman before publishing an editorial about the Ahava demo. Since he organizes the counter-demo, it would have made good journalistic sense to do so.

Some of us, have for a long time, felt that our views were not quite PC enough for The JC. I am concerned, moreover, that The JC's ownership by The Kessler Foundation (Nicky Saphir is a trustee as well as being Chairman of The NIF) might be influencing the way that you report (or, evidently, don't report) stories.

WHAT?????? ARE YOU PEOPLE PAYING ATTENTION?

Jonathan's letter: "most galling of all, Ahava itself has frequently intimated that it is us who cause the disruption to the shop's trade, rather than the boycotters. (The absurdity of this allegation can be seen from the fact that the worst disruptions - the occupations of the shop - have occurred on non-demonstration days!)".

Tell me I didn't just see Mr. Hoffman counter the shop's valid complaint about his disruption of their ongoing commerce with denial, invalidation, and justification....please tell me that didn't just happen.

I wonder how many benefactors' wallets are slammed shut when they see this kind of Jewish extremism. It's quite embarrassing when one has to explain it to a concerned benefactor. Jewish extremism is about as flattering to Jews as Muslim extremism is to Muslims. I wonder how long it will take for these extremists to figure that out? I know America is sensitive to extremism of any kind, be it Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. It seems to me it's time for these Jewish extremists like Jonathan Hoffman to wise up. They're their own worst enemies. When the very people he thinks he's helping, tell him he's not, it's time for him to stop and take notice. It's one thing to promote the survival of Israel, but it's another to cram Israel down the world's collective throats. I, for one, am choking on reading this one. If I owned that shop, I'd have no choice but to ban him from his activities on my behalf. I'd have to, to stay in business.

Any time one is told they're hurting another and it's ignored or denied (invalidated) by the one doing the hurting, that's commonly called bullying or abuse. Israel can be criticized for its behavior just like a naughty child can. Not every criticism is antisemitism. "Hate the sin, love the sinner". Extremism is a dangerous thing to cloak in Zionism. No, this kind of Jewish extremism isn't going to play well on the world stage. I'm sure the ZF knows this.

Yes, Jonathan, you need to pay attention...unless, of course, your aim is not to support the store but rather, more self promotion.....

Apparently Bruce Levy, anti-Ahava big cheese, said that Gilad Shalit should be dug up and buried again.

Oh dear Watchful Iris . So standing up to a ragtag bunch of Communists , antisemites , Holocaust deniers and those who would gladly see the demise of Israel is to be classed as Jewish extremism . I hate to be the one to break it to you ,but the days when Jews were made to clean the streets with tooth brushes is over.

What you are suggesting is that we allow these Mamzers free rein to articulate their hatred for anything Israeli including this privately owned shop which is not breaking any Uk Law .

Do you seriously believe that they will simply lose interest and go away of their own accord if we are not present. These people are fanatical zealots .Ahava is a first step in their mission to denigrate ,demonise and spread their malign and mendacious propaganda against Israel in order to delegitimise it.

Closing down Ahava is their symbolic means of closing down Israel.

I dont have much sympathy with Ahavas "A plague on both your house approach " . Most Israelis are blissfully unaware of the Perfect Storm gathering against themselves .

BDS is the third stage of an existential war against Israel following the failed major existential confrontations and the Intifadas .It must be faced up to and defeated with the same determination as before .

I for one will continue to' man the barricades ' whenever possible .

I have nothing but admiration and awe for Johnathan who stands up to these latter day Nazis day in day out be it in the hot beds of Islamist hatred at universities such as Soas or on the streets sometimes on his own standing fore square against hordes of foam flecked militants . I ve witnessed this on more then one occassion.

The Jewish community should grant him a Knighthood or at least free dining at Kaifeng for a year for all his efforts.

Pay attention, Harvey. HE'S HURTING THE STORE. HELLO? WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? All this other rhetoric is superfluous. Again, read this carefully...HE'S HURTING THE STORE. Give him his Knighthood and awe, and admire him elsewhere. They need to be able to conduct business there without his interference which he, himself, has admitted they've complained about. I'll type it one more time unless your vision was too clouded to read it. HE'S HURTING THE STORE.

Let's assume that Jonathan Hoffman announced that he was no longer going to the demo outside Ahava. Inevtitably that would lead to peace and quiet outside the shop. And the reasons are obvious:

(1) The boycott movement (anti-Ahavists) would automatically disappear.

(2) The EDL would also decide that by NOT turning up, they would attract much more publicity in the Jewish community.The EDL would probably disband altogether. ( I can't comment on The BNP)

(3) All other anti-boycotters, of course, would also stay at home.

As a result, any rational human being would conclude just like Watchful Iris that:

"it's time for these Jewish extremists like Jonathan Hoffman to wise up. They're their own worst enemies. When the very people he thinks he's helping, tell him he's not, it's time for him to stop and take notice. It's one thing to promote the survival of Israel, but it's another to cram Israel down the world's collective throats."

But I would go even further... if it was not for Jonathan Hoffman anti-zionism and anti-semitism would not exist now or even before he was born. He is solely responsible.

Anthony Posner, your all or nothing maladaptive coping mechanisms are tiresome at best. I saw where you proposed that JH cease to exist in another blog as you tried to ineffectively counter an argument against his boorish behavior. It's irrational and immature. Grow up.

Iris

Actually it's the PSC ,ISM and other like minded miscreants who are doing their best to harm Ahava by closing it down . If that should happen it will not be because of Jonathan but by the endeavour of these fascist reactionaries and their lackeys . Are you one of them?

Incidentally ,posting in upper case does not reinforce your argument . It just gives the impression of someone who is slightly unhinged.

Harvey, Jonathan-like name calling will only relegate you to the same loony bin he's finding himself in courtesy of his own organisation. The store itself said it was he and his demonstration causing the greatest harm. If he was smart, he'd take all that negative, combative energy and wage the most awesome sales promotion that store has ever seen, instead of meeting his foes on their level. No store who is experiencing record sales and positive publicity would close down. But there's not enough drama in that for him, I suppose. I'll type it again in all caps...HE'S HURTING THAT STORE. Get it?

Watchful Iris,

I admit that I exaggerated when I said that JH was responible for anti-zionism and anti-semitism before he was born. Thanks for pointing that out. You are on the ball.

I would imagine that Ahava's landlord has stated that the tenant must ask all the demonstrators outside of the shop to go away. Inevitably it would be an obligation under the terms of their lease. However, ironically enough, Ahava's sales are better than ever when the demo is going on. So their business has not been adversely affected.

But I certainly cannot agree that Jonathan's behaviour is "boorish". I would describe it as "courageous". Of course, many anti-zionists want him to shut up so you are not alone in your contempt. And as for the armchair Zionists... I suggest that they actually do something to stop the lies and attacks which Israel is subjected to on a daily basis. People like Jonathan Hoffman and Richard Millett should be greatly respected for their enormous contributions in confronting the vile attempts to destroy the State of Israel. It is a great tragedy that more people don't have a fraction of their commitment and good sense.

Anthony Posner- Well, which is it? The store says he's hurting their business or someone not affiliated with the store says their sales are up? I'm sorry but your statement smacks of self serving justification and is counter to what he admits, himself. I'd have to hear it directly from the store at this point. I think I just heard a dozen wallets slam shut. Some folks are smart enough to support Israel but not the bad behavior of the likes of JH. You missed the point, entirely. Imagine that......

Watchful Iris,

I can assure you that there is a major problem with the demo outside the shop. Of course, the landlord will be extremely reluctant to renew their lease. So the situation for Ahava is not good. (let's leave aside the side issue of whether sales are up or down on a fortnighly sat afternnon)

But who is responsible for the position that Ahava finds itself in? Are you seriously suggesting that it is Jonathan Hoffman? If you are, then you should blog where people might fall for the nonsense that you are dishing out. Any Jew who has actually been to Kindergarten will not fall for it.

May I remind Anthony Posner that Anti-semitism and Anti-Zionism have been around for a very long time and no doubt, sadly will continue to be around.

The Jewish Community is fortunate to have a man with the integrity, interlect and courage of Jonathan Hoffman to speak up for Israel and Zionism.

Sadly it has become too fashionable today to lamblast Israel and the right of Israel to exist. Even sadder is the amount of Jews who support this viewpoint.

Well done Jonathan. Kol Ha'kavod !

Israel does not equal jews. Many jews reject the ludicrous false identity and are said to be " self hating "

This endless "self hating" whine is truly pathetic

Anthony Posner- It doesn't matter whom I think is responsible for Ahava's problems. The shop is in the best position to determine that and by his own admission, he's hurting it. This blog is about that shop, isn't it?

Ann Levin

I don't think that you have to remind me. I totally agree with you about JH.

stephenb,
Of course there are many Jews who are anti-zionists. It is their right to be say so. Whether or not they are self-hating is immaterial. I just believe that they are demented. I am sorry if that includes you.

erm Iris ..no Jonathan would be extremely upset if such an idea were to get abroad Its about jonathan splattering his hopelessly out of date photo all over the ether.

yeah im the only catholic self hating jew in West Cork.

By the way Is israel a country or a soccer team and is Jonathan really Wayne Rooney ?

And I Guess my friend Sean who is married to a Jew and whose kids are Jews and who is very anti what the State of Israel has become hates is wife and kids.

I am going to keep a very close watch on his kids pocket money allowance for any clues

Watchful Iris,

This blog is about a variety of matters pertaining to the demo outside Ahava and how The JC has reported (or not reported) it.

As I have pointed out, under the terms of their lease, Ahava is obliged to tell all the people demonstrating outside to get lost. Obviously that includes JH.

However, if Ahava really believes that JH is responsible for their problems, then I have to conclude that they do not understand what is going on.

I reiterate for the truly demented.. if JH does not attend, the anti-boycott demo and EDL will continue to stay.

Ohhhhhh, I get it now! You and Jonathan know better what's best for this store than they do.

Iris what took you so long ? Bit of a bad hair day is it

stephenb,

It is entirely irrelevant whether such Jews are self-hating or not. Who gives a damn about their personal problems? I certainly don't.

However, if they cannot see that Israel reprsents everything that is positive and intelligent in this world, then I have to conclude that they are demented. Israel is on the front-line of the war against Western civilization. If she falls or gets destroyed, Western civilization will fall in her wake and The Islamists will take over. Many geniuses (Mike Leigh, Ken Loach, Chomsky, Harold Pinter etc) are/were unable to see this obvious truth. In such circumstances, I can only conclude that they are/were demented.

Watchful Iris - the Ahava shop actually does well when there is the anti-Israel demo. outside. What Jonathan et al merely do is give out leaflets and explain Israel's position to passers-by to counter the rhetoric and leaflets of those that hate Israel. You should come to the protest one saturday and check out what is happening.

And, indeed, the main organiser of the Israel haters at the demo. two weeks ago did tell me that "Gilad Schalit should be dug up and killed again because that is what he deserves. He's with Ron Arad now". They all sing "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free", they parade pictures of dead Palestinian childen, they put up photos of Palestinian children behind barbed wire, they shout "racist scum" at Israel tourists who turn up and they call for a total boycott of Israel.

I should expand, sorry. Ahava themselves tell us they do well. At first they did seem concerned and did blame Jonathan et al but their figures for Saturday are up. Nevertheless, the protests should be countered because of the general disruption caused and the delegitimisation of Israel. Furthermore, the shop is regularly attacked on non-protest days. The shop only has one or two female staff on duty. I'd like Ahava to have a couple of burly men in there and then see if the cowards try and attack the shop. I doubt they would.

Richard,

There are many people who contribute to The JC Blogs who would fully support the sentiments expressed by the Israel haters at the demo.

I see. Now they do well during anti-Israeli demonstrations. I wish you people would make your minds up. If that's the case, then Jonathan's efforts are... well...his own. Interesting.

Stephenb- leave my hair out of this.

Anthony Posner-projection is another maladaptive coping mechanism. It doesn't become you.

Richard,

Of course you are 100% correct to write that the aim of the boycotters is to deligitimise Israel.

However, on this blog a more sohisticated game is being played out. The argument, inter alia, is that the pro-Ahavists deligitimise Israel. There are a number of reasons... The EDL is there, JH is "boorish", Dead Sea mud deligitimises Israel etc etc. Tomorrow they will come up with a whole load more.

I don't think that they actually believe this crap, but The JC, once in a while, bans people who continually label Israel as a Nazi state. So they have to be one step ahead of the game. Ingenious, but demented.

Iris

Understandably ,Ahava are only interested in these demos from their own bottom line perspective . As with many Israelis they fail to grasp the wider implications.

Ahava is a recognisable face of Israel .Should these individuals succeed in closing the shop it will be seen as a metaphor for the greater struggle to delegitimise and ultimately eradicate Israel. It is a stepping stone in their overall objective. Most of them reject the notion of a two state solution in any case.

They will still be there regardless of whether we turn up or not in order to counter their lies and hatred. Ahava are sadly deluded if they think it will all go away if we do.

The bottom line is that we who love and support Israel will not simply roll over as you would wish. We will stand resolute in countering the vile hatred ,antisemitism and the vicious lies disseminated by these fascists - FASCISTS - upper case just for you.

This may make your task a little more difficult ,but you need to understand that for however hard you try ,we will push back ioo times harder .

Maybe you will achieve a little more sympathy over at MPAC or Islam on line where your comments will be well received.

Watchful Iris, what do you mean by "you people"? It really is a sad day when fighting anti-Semitism is seen as being a "Jewish extremist".

And anyway a large proportion of the relatively small crowd that turns up to support Ahava/Israel is not Jewish.

Harvey,

Ahava, whether the owners care or not, represents the first potential scalp for the international boycott campaign. And of course, the attack on it, is not just happening in London. There is a massive campaign to prevent the products being bought in South Africa; the campaign is also supported by South African Jews (Nathan Geffen, Doron Isaacs inter alios) who say that the purchase of any product from the occupied territories deligitimises Israel. So they argue that the boycott is actually in Israel's own interests.

However it is interesting that those Islamists who pray for Isreal's total destruction also concur with this boycott strategy; they are on the same wave-length. Obviously, Ahmadinejad and co have Israel's best interests at heart.

This is the meshuggah world that we inhabit. One couldn't make this stuff up.

To return to the OP...

'I'm publishing this letter here, but I won't discuss it here. Give me your name and address.'

What a joke!

and what is it that comes immediately before the fall ?

philocetes ,

The picture that You refer to is completely inaccurate - it was taken of Me behind & it does not mention the truth which is that I was a having a sometimes heated discussion with Roberta Moore about the undesirability of the EDL & it's links with the Far-Right & Football Hooliganism .

I was actually showing Roberta Moore a copy of Searchlight Magazine ( Searchlight is the Organisation that Campaigns against Racism & Fascism )

I posted this information on the report of the Free Palestine Fortnightly Demo website ( it can be seen by clicking on the October 9th Demo report in the report section )

Even though the contributers to that website know that I am a Searchlight Supporter ( and I was an Anti-Racism Officer at Oxford University Jewish Society in the 1990's ) They continue to tell these lies about the Counter-Demo in general & Myself in particular .

Philocetes - if You are one of the slanderous Liars then Shame on You !- if You have just made an honest mistake then I would appreciate it if You acknowledge it & apologise .

Of course, of course Ian. It was a totally innocent situation. The photograph was taken totally out of context and you were debating with Roberta Moore about what an anti-fascist you are and trying to get her to take out a subscription to Searchlight magazine.

Do you really think readers of this blog are that naive? Any self-respecting anti-fascist, as you claim to be, would of walked away rather than buddied up to her. Shame on you Ian! You're just as bad as Jono. We now know whose camp you are in.

Philo,

I have been to Ahava and I have talked to a whole load of people (boycotters, anti-boycotters and who knows what).

It is totally pathetic to imagine that you can't talk to someone who you disagree with.

I will talk to anyone. As EM Forster wrote "only connect".

Posner:

Stop trying to defend the indefensible. Talking to someone who you disagree with is one thing. Talking to a Kahanist racist is unforgivable.

Does your typical anti-fascist debate Nick Griffin & co? No anti-fascist should negotiate with known fascists, Kahanists and racists. If you want answers, then read "The Wit and Wisdom of Rabbi Meir Kahane".

Philocetes ,

Yes thats exactly what the situation was - I have just told You the absolute truth - unlike the Anti-AHAVA Extremists Who's arguments are so weak that They have to invent these types of Falsehoods !

I didn't buddy up to Her ( that is Your interpretation of an event You either know nothing about or are deliberately lying about ) - I was condemning the activity of the EDL .

You characteristically ignore what I have said about being involved in Anti-Fascist Campaigning since the 1990's - would anybody believe that a Left-Wing Trade Union Shop-Steward would have any sympathy with an Extremist Group liker the EDL ?

I gave You the benefit of the doubt in the previous post but Your last comments seem to suggest that You are either linked with the Anti-AHAVA Extremists or that You are continuing to smear us in a completely disgusting way !

Philocetes ,

Roberta Moore denied being a Kahanist - I don't know what Her affiliations are but That is what She told Me - as a Reform Jew I am obviously completely opposed to the repugnant views of Meir Kahana .

You are again playing with interpretations when You say that I was debating with Roberta Moore - I was actually stating the facts when I condemmned the EDL's links with the Far-Right - I would have opposed Griffin if it had been the BNP that had turned up to Gatecrash our Counter-Demonstration .

@Pile Of Faeces

Apart from being a racist cowardly bigot, you are ignorant.

In the recent IJPR Survey, 72% of British Jews consider themselves Zionists.

That includes plenty of 'left wing trade union stewards'

Bigots like you don't accept facts that get in the way of your prejudice though

Great name though!

Philo,

Of course, anti-fascists whould debate Nick Griffin. If they don't, who should do so? Only fascists?