Jordan is Palestine


By Jon_i_Cohen
February 10, 2010
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Concurring with my long held belief when asked to present his alternative to the “two-state” Israel-Palestine option, MK Zevulun Orlev says, “The Arabs of the Palestinian Authority already have a state – Jordan.”
“The basis for every plan is our right to the Land of Israel, halakhically, historically, etc. In the present situation, however, we must see how we make the most of the situation - and not go for ‘all or nothing.’ There is no question that we cannot expel all of the Arabs who currently live in Judea and Samaria, and so the question is how do we deal with the given situation.”
My proposal, or vision, is based on the fact that there is not enough of an expanse in Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state, and that if one is established, it will not be viable and will have to spread out towards and threaten Israel. Not to mention that such a state would not be stable; we can never know who will rule there – Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran…
“The only solution, therefore, is that Jordan, of which 80 percent of its citizens are Palestinian, should be the Palestinian state, with offshoots in the areas that the PA currently controls here in Judea and Samaria. Their national rights, which I believe they deserve, such as a flag, currency, etc., should be manifest in a federation with Jordan - but it must not be an independent state, and Israel must maintain sovereignty and full military control over Judea and Samaria, including the Jordan Valley. In this way, we will maintain our historic rights and our security.”
A more detailed plan along these lines has long been promoted by former MK and Moledet party leader Benny Elon. Known as the Israel Initiative, the program calls for the rehabilitation of the Arab refugees and the dismantling of their ‘camps’ and of UNRWA; replacing the ineffectual Palestinian Authority 'partner' with Jordan - a reliable partner interested in stability; and replacing the Israeli ‘occupation’ in Judea and Samaria with full Israeli sovereignty, which will prevent Hamas and other terrorist organizations from taking control and will grant security to Israel and neighboring countries.
Whether or not the plan meets with immediate acceptance does not much concern Orlev, who said, “With or without us, Jordan will one day become a Palestinian state, as a large majority there has Palestinian roots.”
This is the reality.

COMMENTS

tomeisner2

11 February, 2010 - 00:03

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No No No Jon you are so wrong. Either all the illegal settlers have to move out of Palestine(the west bank)
or Israell has to encourage its citizens to live together with the Palestinians and form one country. Palisrael , it could be called.
This would of course mean that "we" would have to marry out. Presumably it would be also better for our health as our gene pool would be increased which would also mean that various heredity diseases associated with marrying your family members would be eliminated.


ibrows

11 February, 2010 - 02:28

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Mad Jon,

This is like me saying there are loads of Jews in New York so lets expel all Jews to New York? Its a crazy argument as many Jews have the right to live in Israel and also historical ties there. Likewise, many Palestinians have rights and historical ties to Palestine, thats, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinians thats right not all 'Arabs' are the same, like not all 'blacks', 'Chinese' or even 'Israelis' are the same. I know its shocking for your one dimensional world view to accept but these Palestinians that existed in what is now Israel prior to 1948 cannot simply be removed on the basis of the bible or zionist expansionist desires. Would Nazi expulsions have been justified if Hitler had a religious book, clearly not. Jon your argument is nonsense, you must accept Palestinians have existed since before Israel's creation, on the land which is now Israel and they are in this sense very different to Egyptian's, or 'Arabs' from Morocco, or those from 'Jordan'. Just like Jews from Israel, America and Russia are in many ways distinct groups and can be very different


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 05:18

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They existed before the State of Israel, but they were NOT "palestinians". They served under British rule, and before that, Turkish rule. No talk then of "palestinians", and not relevant now.

They can stay here as citizens of the Jewish state.


Jon_i_Cohen

11 February, 2010 - 09:11

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Our "left-wing friends ibrows & tomeisner2 need to have a look into the history books and then face up to the reality that their concept of a Palestinian entity replacing The State Of Israel exists only in their Guardianesque, Left- Wing, Alice Through the Looking Glass, Parallel Universe -
It does not exist in the real world of 2010, and never will.
There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and invented a Palestinian Arab nation in 1964 when an Egyptian Yassir Arafat along with Abu Mazen, our present “Peace Partner”, (responsible for a holocaust denial thesis “Relations between Zionism and Nazism”), who formed the terror group the PLO. After the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War in an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist”. “The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity”.
In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we poit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism.
This is what the Arab leadership truly believes, hences the logic in re-locating the Arabs living in Judea and Samaria into an already exisiting Arab Palestine, that is Jordan.
It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" had always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel - There are numerous historical sources to support this..
I know you left wingers want to see two more Arab Countries created, an Arab State of Palestine in the West Bank - Fatastan and an Arab State Palestine in Gaza-Hamastan -
but the reality on the ground says it is NEVER going to happen.
So, maybe its time to move over to the Guardian web site and take up another cause.


Jon_i_Cohen

11 February, 2010 - 09:29

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Finally!
moshetzarfati2 agreeing with me - there is hope yet, for us all!


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 09:55

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zafarti, I realise that as an over-achiever in life you found your true place in Aberdeen. I am happy for both of us. But why don't you devote yourself to local, Aberdeenian problems, and leave the less important stuff - like the Middle East - to us less fortunates?


moshetzarfati2

11 February, 2010 - 09:59

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Jon, good. But where I think we disagree is on the fact that in order to prevent the Palestinians voting Israel out of existence, Israel needs to get out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem pretty damn sharpish.


moshetzarfati2

11 February, 2010 - 10:01

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Mr Rsole (that's an ad hom for your pathetic ad hom), what problems in Aberdeen? Do you know how good life is here for an off-shore rig engineer?


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 10:03

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zaFarti, what normal Aberdeenian "off-shore rig engineer" would get so hysterically obssessive about a far-away Middle Eastern problem?

You're an engineer like I'm a banana.


moshetzarfati2

11 February, 2010 - 10:19

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Are you a Ffyfe's or a Canaan Banana, then? As we used to say, achi, zabashchah, davka.


Jon_i_Cohen

11 February, 2010 - 10:21

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I agree with you. moshetzarfati2
We need to prevent the Arabs "voting Israel out of existence".
The way this will be done is outlined in my blog -above.
That is, the Arabs are to move out of Judea, Samaria & East Jerusalem and into their own State, that is the State of Jordan, It is NOT for the Jews to move from The State Of Israel, that is where you are mistaken.


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 11:02

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Jon,
zafarti wants you to follow _his_ example, i.e. a Jew (if he is in fact one) who left Israel. Reminds me of the kids' fable of a fox whose tail got caught in a hunter's trap, so he chewed it off to escape. Then, feeling weird without a tail, he tried to persuade all the other animals to cut off their tails.

It didn't work for the fox, and it doesn't work for our Aberdeenian oil-rigging 'engineer'.

Your suggestion for creating a "palestinian" state in what is now Jordan, was proposed some 20 or more years ago by ex-Right-wing-Sharon (now known better as the 'Zemach Zedek'. :-) ). It drew him a lot of fire at the time.

Personally, I fully agree with you.


moshetzarfati2

11 February, 2010 - 11:03

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But this is where we differ: the "Kahanism" of 1948 didn't work. It just made the problem worse. So, in order to survive as a Jewish democratic state, which is what Zionism is all about, Israel has to say farewell to the West Bank and East Jerusalem and their indigenous Palestinian residents and concentrate on being a light unto the nations within recognised boundaries.


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 11:21

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zafarti, what utter rubbish. If you understand about oil like you understand Israeli history, no wonder "Aberdeen" and "oil" don't exactly jump up and embrace eachother ...

Kahana in 1948? In 1948 Israel was attacked - invaded - by 7 Arab armies. Kahanism? Most of the new IDF at that point in time were concentration camp survivors.

Recognised boundaries? Recognised by whom? Aberdeenian fishermen? From who exactly do we require permission to exist? The UN?


moshetzarfati2

11 February, 2010 - 11:32

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Rsole, you haven't a Scooby, have you? Aberdeen is the home of North Sea oil work. You've just been done up like a kipper (which are from Arbroath, a few miles south of Aberdeen, by the way). Achi, atah ahabal.


moshetzarfati2

11 February, 2010 - 11:32

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Rsole, you haven't a Scooby, have you? Aberdeen is the home of North Sea oil work. You've just been done up like a kipper (which are from Arbroath, a few miles south of Aberdeen, by the way). Achi, atah ahabal.


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 11:37

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zafrti, stick to oil and Aberdeen, and leave 3-digit IQ matters to others.


ibrows

11 February, 2010 - 13:53

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Jon

if Palestinians didnt exist prior to 1948, who were all the Muslims and Christians that lived in what is today Israel, are you claiming they were all refugees? This is crazy, many Palestinians lived in this land for generations. These Palestinians are distinct from Lebanese, and Jordanians in many respects, both culturally and historically. Plus the Arabic language also has different dialects in different countries, they have different histories as distinct groups.

the recognition of Palestinians does not mean the destruction of Israel, nor will they 'vote Israel out'. Palestinians want equal rights and then left to get on with their lives


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 14:15

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"These Palestinians are distinct from Lebanese, and Jordanians in many respects, both culturally and historically."

"palestinian culture" - that's a new one ...

"the recognition of Palestinians does not mean the destruction of Israel, nor will they 'vote Israel out'. Palestinians want equal rights and then left to get on with their lives"

No they don't. They want the destruction of Israel. I wouldn't waste time on you by quoting Arab leaders throughout the last century, go look for the sources yourself. At best, they'd want to get on with their wives ...

"if Palestinians didnt exist prior to 1948, who were all the Muslims and Christians that lived in what is today Israel, are you claiming they were all refugees?"

Certainly not. Nobody is disputing the fact of the presence of an Arab population in the Land of Israel before the State of Israel. But they weren't "palestinians", DESPITE the fact that the land was then called "palestine".

The State of Israel directly replaced British rule.
British rule directly replaced Turkish rule (1918, General Allenby). While on the Western Bank of the Jordan, the country of Jordan ruled between the British and Israeli rules during the period 1948-1967.

During Turkish, British and Jordanian rule, there was never any attempt to recognize the dwellers as "palestinians". In fact, when riots broke out in Jordan during the reign of King Hussein (now regarded by Israel as a benign Arab leader), he went abroad for 5 days or so, closed the entire country to the press, put his brother Prince Hassan in charge, and returned to a Jordanian population reduced by the number of some 800 rioters.

Which brings up another point. Can anyone point to ANY Arab democracy?


tomeisner2

11 February, 2010 - 14:35

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That is rich Avraham about Arab democracies. I mean Israel is nice and democratic if you are Jewish fine, but what about the 50% of non Jews who live under Israeli occupation, life isn't very democratic for them is it? Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens, Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza like prisoners behind a fence, but that is the whole point isn't it. We are the Übermensch aren't we? As long as "Us Jews" are ok that is all that matters isn't it??


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 16:03

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tomeisner2:

That kind of description might have been valid coming from a visitor from Mars after a one day tour of the region. Or from an eight year old. But from an adult, who wishes to dabble in these matters on blog forums, a modicum of historical perspective is required. Which you either lack or ignore.

In May 1967 Israel had an extremely uncomfortable border with Jordan - 11km from border to coast at its narrowest point - but had declared no territorial expansion aspirations.

In June 1967 3 Arab armies - Egypt, Syria and Jordan - declared war on Israel. I was in Jerusalem when it started, with the Egyptians and Syrians. The late PM Eshkol called on the radio for Jordan to remain out of it - but it didn't. Jerusalem began being shelled at 11:00 that morning of June 5th 1967.

The result is common knowledge; in six days we beat off all 3 armies and gained much territory - which is always a result of war. They declared war on us, they lost - and so lost some of their lands. Veni, Vidi, Loser. Peace was later made with Egypt and Jordan, where Egypt refused to take Gaza back, knowing the quality of its population, and Jordan ditto with the Western Bank of the Jordan.

That explains why we are sitting in those places. Their original 'owners' refused to take them back.

As for conditions, terrorist activities have created the current security set-up. Suicide bombers, murderers of of non-combatant children, women and men, smuggling of arms etc etc etc - all these have dictated that for the safety of Israeli citizens as you put it: "Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza like prisoners behind a fence " - true, which is the same kind of fence you would build in your home if your neighbour was threatening you with a rotweiller every day. I personally know at least 10 families who have had a member murdered by Arab terrorists, mostly from Judea and Samaria.

I have also done several tours of reserve duty in the IDF in these areas, and know well what I am talking about.

But of course, you are different, you are one of the intellectual elite who must be protected even at the expense of others, because the world needs your tender, social conscience.

Get it into your smug skull: Israel doesn't owe you any answers. I just replied here so as not to leave you control of the IT highway. Since the Holocaust we look after ourselves and rely on no others.

And the way that bleeding heart liberal now running the USA is behaving, it looks as if before long we'll be handling the Iranian problem by our selves, other solutions being hindered by Martians like yourself.


Jon_i_Cohen

11 February, 2010 - 16:32

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Avraham Reiss
Excellent! Well done!
Barak "Hussein" Obama? the name speaks for itself.
He will be a one term wonder/failure, Massachusets election, Republicans get in for the first time ever, just read the US papers, all the Jews regret voting for him, it was a big mistake. Next time round the Republicans will get in with a massive majority.
And as for Iran, with the news today of them enriching Uranium to 80%, (90% for a weapon), it will be left to Israel to deal with the problem,, and deal with it they will!!


Avraham Reiss

11 February, 2010 - 16:43

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Jon, thanks!

I also feel that Ibama is a one-off show. What screws up American presidents is the economy; conversely, Clinton remained popular despite his gynacological disturbances, because he left the country with a good economy.

But Obama has been writing cheques all over the place, and at pay-time he won't be able to cover them. Inshallah!


Moshe Fukks

12 February, 2010 - 00:53

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Palestinions move to Jordan - what drugs are you on?

That's like asking the scots to move to ireland?


Jon_i_Cohen

12 February, 2010 - 08:30

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Palestinions? what's that? who are they? Do you mean Palestinians?

Educate yourself !

http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/27096/giora-eiland-jordan-should-ta...

But with a two digit IQ it may be difficult for you to grasp.


Avraham Reiss

12 February, 2010 - 09:11

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Moshe Fukks,
with a name yours I can well imagine that your life is not an easy one (did you ever try replacing the F with an S?), but you do have a very vivid imagination:

"That's like asking the scots to move to ireland?"

- boy, I'd like to see that happening! Since both countries play the bag-pipes, they might get on well together.
But I think the Scots would rob the Irish blind while they were drunk ...

More seriously, Jon's suggestion was made some twenty years ago by no less than Sharon. He caused quite an uproar at the time. But the suggestion is a very practical one. Between 1948-1967 the so-called "palestinians" on the Western Bank - Judea and Samaria - were in fact part of the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, so Jon's suggestion is in fact one of repatriation of the Arabs living in these areas.

The only great obstacle that I can see is that Jordan's current king (I forgot his name - Abdullah?) would probably object strongly, in the same way that Saadat refused to take back Gaza.

When discussing this subject one must remember that what is today known as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan was created by Sir Winston Churchill in 1921, and was originally named Transjordan, meaning that it was supposed to occupy only the Eastern Bank of the river Jordan, just as it had done up until then under Ottoman rule.

From Wikipedia:

The Emirate of Transjordan was a former Ottoman territory incorporated into the British Mandate of Palestine in 1921 ...

The British administration in Jerusalem only ever covered the area west of the Jordan, while the area east of the Jordan was administered by the British representative in Ma'an, Captain Alex Kirkbride until the arrival in November 1920 of Abdullah. The Mandate for Palestine, while specifying actions in support of Jewish immigration and political status, stated that in the territory to the east of the Jordan River, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' those articles of the Mandate concerning a Jewish National Home.
[end Wikipedia]

Jordan was thus never intended to occupy the Western Bank, that was intended for the Jewish National Home. The only reason Jordan got it was because of the fighting in 1948: we lost it thru war in '48, and got it back again thru war in '67.

Moshe, you may not agree with us, but we aren't stupid, and we do know what we are talking about.


moshetzarfati2

12 February, 2010 - 09:38

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What a great idea, Avraham. Give the Palestinians citizenship of the Jewish state, then they can vote it out of existence. Now you see why I think you're an anti-Zionist.


DLeigh-Ellis

15 February, 2010 - 23:37

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WOW WOW WOW...

My account has been locked out for a few weeks so I missed this one but WOW.... JIC, you outdid yourself here.....

Jordan is Palestine???? what are you on now?

I suppose Scousers are 'practically' Mancunians so we might as well do away with the distinction there as well, and just group all those Eastern European countries into some generic block too.... oh and why dont we refer to all the South Americans as Brazilians from now on....

A lot of wishful thinking again Jon, but still no clear understanding of the situation on the ground...

Anybody who can end a blog with the statement 'This is reality,' is either deluded or insane....


mattpryor

22 February, 2010 - 12:46

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I agree with you Jon, by rights Palestinians in Judea and Samaria should have the choice to:

a) Become Israeli citizens, pay taxes to the Knesset (and also be eligible for national service)

or

b) Move to Jordan where Arabs already have self rule.

Unfortunately were Israel to make this policy (which would involve formally annexing J&S?) it would require Jordanian agreement, which will never ever happen. Which leaves Israel with contemplating forced evacuation, not something I'd like to see happen, and probably not most Israelis either.


steveabbott

22 February, 2010 - 14:12

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Why not start from the point of view of justice. Israelis have their state, Palestinians must have theirs. Or, as another comment mentioned - Palestinians and Jews must live in 1 single state. That would have to be a state will equal rights for all its citizens – not an apartied state like South Africa.

I am not sure your proposal is even serious. No1 Jordan would not accept it. Why should they swop the stable-state they currently have for an unstable state incorporating the occupied west bank. Remember they acted in 1970 to suppress the PLO, and thus reduce Palestinian influence in Jordan. Also, you want to sub-contract all the problems of the occupied territories to Jordan, but you want Israel to maintain sovereignty???? Does that sound like a serious idea to you?

The only solution is a just solution, and that means 2 states. And no, Israel cannot expect to exercise control over the new Palestinian state after independence – that’s not what independence means. It is also what is has tried to do in Gaza since the evacuation, and that has not worked too well – has it?

Israel (and its Diaspora supporters), need to stop thrashing around trying to come up with increasingly unviable and bizarre solutions to the occupation, and end it. There is no other way, unless Israel is to cease to be a Jewish state, and becomes an Israeli/Palestinian federation or confederation.

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