Jewish chronicle censorship?

I hope so.

If only.

But worry not ibrows, it's not censorship as far more articulate and intelligent anti-semites continue to plague us here than you. Chances are you probably just don't know how to use a computer, which is further evidenced by your ignorance of the truth.

Good to see your all so welcoming as usual. But seriosuly how do you live in such a one dimensional world, where anything Israel does is automatically right, and any criticism is automatically wrong.

This is religious fundamentalism, blind to any other perspective or feelings of those that don't entirely share this singular narrative.

Or can you prove me wrong and acknowledge even a small mistake that Israel has made... come on Jonathan

About a fortnight ago I was permanently locked out of the JC site. For days I couldn't access it via IE, so I downloaded Firefox and still had no luck.
I use a laptop via a router.
Then I tried one further remedy, not with any high hopes. I turned my main PC (which I seldom use, as it's on its last legs) off at the main plug.
Amazingly, when I next attempted to access this site via IE on my laptop I was able to get in, and have had no further trouble since.

So did the site close during the height of Israel killings of the nine civilians?

ibrows, theye were not civilians, they were jihadis, members of the terrorist IHH. Look them up. It was they who introduced the violence on the ships, and they who said they wanted to be shaheeds before even embarking. How many "peace" activists do you know who say they want to be shaheeds? They are also antisemites, shouting "Khaybar, khay, bar, Oh Jew, the armies of Mohammed will return!" and "Go back to Auschwitz!" and "Remember 9/11"! Not very "peaceful" are they?

ibrows, we had other stupid an ill informed Israel hating comments during that period, so perhaps you need to examine your victim complex.

Grow up.

"So did the site close during the height of Israel killings of the nine civilians?"

1) You make the point perfectly for me about your desire to deligitimise Israel. Suggesting that Israel simply "killed nine civilians" without providing a context is exactly the same kind of game Goebbels played.

2) If that were the basis for closing a website, no British newspaper would be able to maintain one. Not when one takes into account the tens of thousands of civilians killed by Britain in Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Amber and Joshua 18 part of the narrow minded ghetto minded mentality.
You swallow lie after lie from Israel. You don't know what you are talking about because you have no first hand knowledge of Palestine. Have you met any of the survivors of the flotilla massacre and spoken to them as I have. No of course you haven't.
If you had you would realise that your lovely Israel tortured them. Israel is terrified of a full enquiry into this.

The truth will seep out and this will be another step towards the One State Solution.

Do you both live in South Africa by any chance?

ibrows. you seem to have encouraged joshua18 out of the woodwork. well done!

i had a blog post removed - Israel: a normal state? asked about it on blog, and also emailed the jc editorial people, but no response as yet.

if it was censored, i cant imagine why they picked on that one - many other blogs from me that do not meet with the approval of amber, blacklisted dictator, jon i cohen, joshua18, and akiva.

generally i think this site is excellent. there is a preponderance of 'defenders of the indefensible' - see the usual suspects above - lets call them the gang of four and a half. but, there are other contributors who are more thoughtful and imaginative, and strike a more moral and humane posture. even the irreconcileables sometimes engage with the arguments, once they've got all the 'anti-semite/self hater' stuff off their chests.

nice to hear from you again.

More lies from eisner. No-one on those ships was tortured - but innocent people are routinely tortured by your mates in Hamas, which defend and condone.

What hoolow "concern" for victims of torture - you ignore the real victims and invent new ones.

Sick. Do you live in Nazi Germany?

amber. is there anything israel could theoretically do, that you would unreservadly condemn?

Amber you are so so so ignorant of what goes on in the real world. I have met 3 people who were beaten savagely by Israeli soldiers hours after the kidnapping took place. One was so badly treated that he had lost any feeling in his hands.
Israel tortures people all the time especially children.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906664,00.html

Tom, I could almost believe that with that wicked libel you have committed a Chillul Ha-Shem.

always a last attempt when you have to resort to all that religious hokus pokus fairy tale stuff.

eisner, I don't believe you are deluded. I think you wilfully lie, because you are so full of hatred and bile. Thus you invent lies about the Jewish state, whilst you ignore, condone and excuse real human rights violations in the Arab world, especially amongst the Palestinian Arabs. Such "concerns" for human rights are therefore hollow, and merely used as a weapon with which to beat the Jews, who are fighting for their very lives and existence.

It is sheer evil.

abbot
Yes.

Next?

beat the Jews, who are fighting for their very lives and existence.
utter rubbish. There are the Jews and there is Israel. Today that is an enormous difference. Go to Palestine and see for yourself as I have done and you haven't . I may not be remotely religious but I tell the truth.

I have been to the Palestinian areas, there is no such place as "Palestine" - nor has there ever - an invention with which to beat the Jews. There is no enormous difference - the vast majority of Jews stand with Israel, as you well know. The assertion that you tell the truth is itself a lie!

Don't kid yourself. The traditional religious fairy tale ones like yourselves might, but not the free thinkers.

here in the uk most Jews now marry out which means in a few years time you won't be able to count on their support. Mind you by then there will be a single Israel/Palestine state. What shall we call it. Palisrael? Rolls of the tongue doesn't it?

eisner, it truly is amazing what you assume. I do not belong to any established faith group, and nor do my friends. It is you who is kidding yourself. And the rest of your post seems to relish the idea of the Jews disappearing - but I guess that is the dream of most antisemites.

eisner, do you condemn Hamas' treatment of women?

@Amber

your Jihadi claims have been proved by the state of Israel itself to be false, it retracted the falsified and re-edited recordings. Unless you believe it was being 'anti-semitic' in retracting its own lies?

@steveabbott

I agree completely. This is exactly the point, i continually have with Jonathan and others, who continually defend every action of Israel and will not condemn any Israeli state policy. To do so is to be a religious fanatic, and to fail to see the difference between the state and the religion of Judaism. To occupy this position is no different to the 'jihadis' who believe Islam and the Islamic state is above criticism.

My criticism of Israeli policies is not anti-semitic or about delegitimising Israel. Likewise MY criticism of British and US policies is not about delegitimising these states. This is what happens in an open society we are critical and we debate

The good news is that most British people are not easily fooled and lots of people are starting to take more of an interest in the Middle East as a result of all the noise that Eisner et al are making.

Unlike much of the third world, where education leaves much to be desired, we British are literate and can read books. Unfortunately for propagandists like Eisner, actual history books tell a very different side of the conflict than the one he and his ilk would like the world to believe.

ibrows

I have seen your lovely passengers chanting "Kyabar! Oh Jew the armies of Mohammed will return". The "Go back to Auschwitz" comment was indeed made, as was a cleebration of the 9/11 attacks. The IHH chartered three of the six ships (including the ship where the violence took place). You may like to sweep the jihadist IHH under the carpet, but it won't go away, much as you would like.

eisner, do you condemn Hamas' treatment of women?

Amber, your posts are superb. And it seems to speak volumes about Tom that he ignores your question about women.
Tom, you are of course fully entitled to talk of "religious hocus pocus", but I wouldn't do it in front of your islamic chums ...
It seems clear you want Am Yisrael as well as Eretz Yisrael to disappear; you seem to be one very sick bunny.
Matt, several people have observed to me that non-Jews they've spoken to (friends, colleague) are not taken in by the anti-Israel propaganda, so as you say perhaps they are not easily fooled.
Steve, a nice guy I feel, is one of those who has been taken in; who is the half in your gang of "four and a half" btw, Steve?

I should have said Medinat Yisrael rather than Eretz Yisrael above. Pity there's no edit button.

Ibrows,

I doubt whether The JC would go to all the trouble of censoring you. I think that you overestimate the poison in your venom.

I agree. I mean, they tolerate Gold and Eisner!

Thanks Yvetta, very kind of you. I can only apologise for the typos - I type too quickly!

I feel it's important to conter the process of deminisation and vilification. Lies and distortions must never be allowed to stand unchallenged.

A case in point - that should read "counter" - and "delegitimisation"!

I'm always making typos too - I type too fast, and the resultant spelling errors are embarrassing.

Don't worry about the typos Yvetta even Devils like myself do that.

Apologies to have intruded in the mutual back rubbing/ patting club... (josh, amber, yvetta)...
Yvetta stop slandering me, the book says its a sin - you wouldn't want G-d to strike you down would you?
ע זאל שוין נאך דיר א נאמען געבן

amber. if there is no such thing as palestine, then the palestinians must live in greater israel (or judea and samaria as you would call it). if israel is not to be an aparthied state, then surely they must be given rights enjoyed by all israelis? - inc the vote. is this not the self evident logic of your position - assuming you want israel to be a democracy.

yvetta. sorry about the 'half' - a witticism that leapt from the keyboard! i was thinkink of amber but thats unkind, and unfair. her bile often crowds out her arguments. i take it back.

Tom, two questions:
1. Amber's - Do you condemn Hamas's treatment of women?
2. Yesterday you dismissed as "religious hocus pocus" (only you used the rather germanic K in the ltter words) a Judaic concept I'd brought forward; would you be brave enought to describe Islamic belief in that way before one of your mates in Hamas? And if not, why not?

To Mr "Gold" - if it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it is a duck.

abbot, I seem to have ticked you off. Good.

Palestine was a British imperialist construct, created after the First World War. There never was a Palestinian people per se, nor any Palestinian state, and Palestinian Arab nationalism was a direct result of Zionism, invented in 1967. Indeed, it only exists as a tactic to destroy the Jewish state of Israel. Between 1948-67, when the Jordanians occupied Judea and Samaria (illegally, by the way), there was no movemnet for Palestinian independence. It was never mentioned. The problem which exists at the moment is that the Arab and Islamic worlds do not accept a Jewish state in any borders - thus putting the lie to the contention that it's only about "the occupation." The Israeli presence in Judea and Samaria does not cause Arab hostility, it came about as a result of Arab hostility.

Morning! So Amber were you there in 1947-48 when the Irgun ripped through the Palestinian villages which contained Palestinian men women and children, many of them educated middle class like yourselves. They threw them out of their houses and that is how Israel started.

Ghastly Golda Meir said later "There are no such people as the Palestinians" She was lying.... It was a bit like the time i was in East Berlin in in Dec. 1987 and I saw a DDR map which showed all the bits in the West as blanked out...thre re no such people as the West Germans

AND NOW specially for you, because I think you have a birthday soon I will answer your answer your question "do you condemn Hamas's treatment of women?"

I haven't been to Gaza so I can't answer this would be the most honest reply. I do feel that unless one has seen somewhere and really "lived the Place" one shouldn't offer an opinion. E.g. I lived as a Palestinian recently on the west bank so I know exactly how it feels to be treated as a second class citizen by an occupying power.

But to attempt to answer your question. Which part of their treatment do you object to? Is it the head covering part? Is it that they stay in and look after the children? Again I haven't been there so please enlighten me with your first hand knowledge.
I can add that when I went to AL Quuds university in East Jerusalem 70% per cent of the students were women, strong minded,beautiful and highly intelligent, any man would have a really hard time trying to abuse them. They would simply be told to f... off!

You should try being in an English town or village on any Friday or Saturday night when you routinely see girls completely drunk out of their minds. broken homes have becoming the norm here with dysfunctional families as a result. These specific problems don't exist in Palestine.

My impression, again only in the west bank is,in spite of all the odds, how strongly the families stick together and look after each other.

Tom Eisner,

Do you ever blog articles condemning Hamas and the Ahmadinejad regime for their appalling treatment of homosexuals? If so, please provide the links.

Are you bothered about how women are treated In Iran? If so, have you ever blogged about it?

I agree with you about Iran but i concentrate on Palestine as I have been there.

Tom Eisner,

Does it concern you that Hamas is sponsored by the Iranain regime?

Tom, your answer to my second question, prithee?

Tom Eisner,

I note that your post "Chere Melanie" has been deleted. I guess that the editor perceived that the following quote from the review of Melanie's new book, is anti-semitic (I can live with it and ,for what it is worth, believe that your post should be discussed.)

"If everyone went to Synagogue to thank the Intelligent Designer there would be no more conflict. Instead there is a global coalition of Muslims, environmentalists and vegetarians whose sole purpose is to destroy the state of Israel." (Crace)

2. Yesterday you dismissed as "religious hocus pocus" (only you used the rather germanic K in the ltter words) a Judaic concept I'd brought forward; would you be brave enought to describe Islamic belief in that way before one of your mates in Hamas? And if not, why not?

I would have no problem in telling a member of Hamas what I thought of Islamic belief. Of course if he were bigger than me I wouldn't use such colorful quotes such as those from Hänsel und Gretel (Hokus Pokus)as I did yesterday.

Obviously I would moderate my tone in the same way as if I was face to face with a Jewish Rabai which is of course just being sensible. Enjoy lunch!

eisner,

Your post is so replete with hypocrisies, lies and distortions that I could write a book refuting them. I will try to keep it pithy:
1. That is not how Israel started. Around 20% of Israel's population is Arab. If, as you claim, the Arabs were all murdered/thrown out of their homes, then how did such a large number remain? Compare and contrast to the Jewish villages and settlements which were routinely attacked from the 1880's. The common practice was to massacre the residents, men, women and children, and mutilate their bodies. Furthermore, you seem ignorant of the anti-Jewish pogroms over the sixty year period up to the War of Independence and the re-establishment of Israel. Jewish residents in Judea and Samaria were then ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians (60% of whom are themselves Palestinians, Jordan being the first Palestinian state), and all the ancient synagogues of the Old City of Jerusalem were vandalised and systematically destroyed. Jewish residents of several Arab nations faced pogroms, living under dhimmi apartheid, or were forcibly expelled, all possessions being confiscated. More Jewish refugees than Arab refugees were created in 1948, something we will not hear from you.
2. The idea that one can only have an opinion on a place that they have been to is utterly stupid. Yes, of course it helps, but have you been to Nazi Germany, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia or Stalin's Soviet Union? If not, how do you know it was bad? What a silly juvenile argument.
3. Your final hypocrisy comes in your rather suspect view of women. You seem to be under the impressio tha living without freedom in an Islamofascist police state is preferable for women because they don't get drunk on Saturday night. I am reminded of a moronic article I read after 9/11, where some idiot was arguing that women were better off in Afghanistan because they didn't have to suffer the "indignity" of page 3 girls. What codswallop! You complain about invented "apartheid" in Israel but excuse and condone the treatment of women as second class citizens, under the control of theocratic fascists who would deny them freedom in how they dress, how they work, where they can go, how they can act and what they are allowed to do in everyday life. That this is fine by you demoonstrates the hollowness of your "concerns". You are simply a hater, and your hatred is so great, you will excuse the inexcusable. You would even rather side with an openly antisemitic, racist, misogynistic, anti-democratic Islamist terror group.

You really need to look at yourself long and hard.

All true, Amber.
And notice how in his answer (finally!) to me he equates the jihadist islamofascist group, Hamas, with your everyday Jewish rabbi.

amber. we, and everyone else on this site can debate the history forever. history is not truly objective, and your interpretation less so. anyway - moving on. you have not answered my question. you may not think palestinians exist, but what are you going to do with the millions of them that appear to do exactly that in the west bank and gaza? i ask again, will it be?

1: Ethnically cleanse the lot of them, out of greater israel? foreign minister lieberman has argued for this option - incredible though it may seem!

2: Formalise greater israel as an aparthied state, where some citizens have rights (israelis), and others dont (palestinians).

3: Just try to maintain the status quo as it is, with probable increasing brutality, further corruption of israeli society, and hope that; the palestinians eventually accept being slaves, Hezbollah dont get any stronger, Egypt doesn't go fundamentalist, and Iran cant make the bomb work.

4: Give up on dreams of greater israel, implement the 2 state solution and achieve a peace settlement with palestinians, make peace with syria and neutralise hezbollah, put israeli nukes on the table, and make it sooo much easier for the international community to prevent Iran building the bomb.

amber. which option would you like to persue. or give me a 5th if you prefer.

abbot, you are labouring under the delusion that if only Israel did this or that, the problem would be solved.

The bll is in the Arabs' court, not Israel's. Israel could indeed withdraw back to the 1967 ceasefire lines (although there is no moral imperative for it to do so, having been attacked from those territories with the aim of destroying Israel). What then? Do you think there would be a sudden outbreak of peace? there was no peace before the Six Day War and the so-called occupation, so your question should be - what has changed in the interim? Israel cannot withdraw at the moemnt because it has no viable peace partner. Abbas has said he will never, under any circumstances, recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and Hamas just wants to kill Jews.

Some choice.