Israeli racism in practice


By telegramsam
December 1, 2010
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The Zionist Federation, NIF and the Avraham Fund have a lot of work to do in the UK Task Force.

86% of the Jewish public (76% of the total population) thinks that critical decisions for the state should be made by the Jewish majority.
53% of the Jewish public also believe that the State is entitled to encourage the emigration of Arabs.

It's all here

COMMENTS

mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 09:42

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The title says "Israeli racism" yet in fact the point of the blog is in fact only to accuse Jews of racism, not non-Jews.

Of course Jews aren't racist. In Israel there are African Jews, Arabic Jews, Chinese Jews, European Jews. Jews of all colours. How can they be racist? It's nonsensical.

There may be a plurality which harbours antipathy towards the Arab population, which is hardly surprising given the fact that they have been under attack by Arabs for the last 60 years. There is also a significant plurality who do not, and that includes the political classes. As for a desire for self determination what on Earth is wrong with that? Israel is after all the homeland for the Jewish people, of course they should be able to govern their own affairs while they are in the majority.

What this is is an attempt to push forward the "Israel is a racist apartheid state" narrative, which is of course complete bollocks. But if a propagandist like Telegramsam can persuade left wing Jewish organisations that it's true then defenders of Israel have no grounds on which to defend the accusation.

Shameful propaganda telegramsam. Nice try though.


The Bubble Maker

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 09:43

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Matt, I agree with everyhting you said, except your last sentence: a "nice try" it was NOT!


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 09:48

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Matt, many thanks for your comments. However, I think it is an issue you need to take up with the ZF etc, since it is part of the UK Task Force om racism in Israel.
Also, bear in mind that as Israel describes itself as the state of the Jewish people, then of course this is about Israeli Jewish racism. If there were more Israeli non-Jews in positions of prominence, perhaps claims of institutionalised racism would be wrong. But even the ZF recognises that institutionalised racism exists in Israel, that's why it's part of the task force.


The Bubble Maker

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 09:52

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The source you quote is an extreme leftist and anti-religious source, thus unreliable.

I would like to see a survey on what the British public thinks about its Muslim population, which is now around 6% of Britain's population. THEN you would hear British racism at its very best.


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 09:54

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Well alright I was being unnecessarily kind. But these anti-Israel propagandists certainly are trying their hardest to defame and demonise Israeli Jews and they appear to have a clear strategy to accomplish it.

This is also another part of the "opinion poll wars" saga where each side tries to paint the other as unreasonable. I take it all with a pinch of salt - especially given the ridiculously low number of people polled (about a thousand for this poll if I recall).


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 09:56

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Bubble Maker: We Brits are a tolerant bunch on the whole, like Israelis, but there is certainly racism and intolerance to be found anywhere if you look hard enough!


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:08

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Matt, I hope you aren't suggesting that the ZF is among "these anti-Israel propagandists [who are] certainly are trying their hardest to defame and demonise Israeli Jews". That wouldn't be very nice. I know since Harvey became chairman the ZF has taken a more centrist and sensible path, but that doesn't make it anti-Israel.


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:10

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Why was my comment removed?


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:36

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telegramsam back to his bad old ways.

Yes telegramsam, let's kick the crap out of the most tolerant, pluralistic, LEAST racist country in the Middle East, because it isn't perfect.

You need help.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:38

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Precisely Matt - there is some racism in every society. Apparently tspam, yet again, feels that any flaw amongst Jews should be shouted from the rooftops, whilst he does not apply the same standards to...well, anywhere, including the UK.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:39

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Indeed, the title of this "piece" is deliberately inflammatory and insulting.


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:39

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Morning Amber :-)

Did you also feel like someone had done a steaming turd on your front doorstep when you read this "blog"?


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:40

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The ZF does NOT "recognise that institutionalised racism exists in Israel" and if there is anything that remotely suggests that - in any publication or statement that comes out of the Task Force - the ZF will immediately pull out.

T-Spam remains a vexacious, mendacious little pisher despite the veneer of politeness.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:47

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Morning Matt! Yes, I'm getting a little fed up with finding such "presents" when looking at the JC. I'd expect it at the Guardian's hatesheet Comment is Free, but the fact that we have to counter Israel hating propaganda on the JC is very sad.

A bit like tspam.


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:47

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There are always polls coming out showing that Israelis have politically incorrect views about lots of issues. What Pisher T-Spam does not tell you is that these views don't enter into day-to-day political discourse, eg no-one is proposing policy that would "encourage" Israeli Arabs to emigrate and no mainstream political party, even those regarded unfriendly to Arabs, has sought to campaign on it.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:49

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Shouldn't the title here be "Jewish antisemitism in practice"?

It is an excellent example.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 10:59

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Jonathan et al, many thanks for your comments. But the ZF would not have joined forces with the NIF and Avraham Fund in the task force to fight institutionalised racism in Israel if it didn't think that this existed. Anyway, Jonathan, given your comment that the ZF would pull out if the task force expresses such sentiments, could we have a comment from Harvey Rose. Many thanks.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:05

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Amber, thanks. I hope you aren't suggesting that Israel or the ZF are practising Jewish antisemitism


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:10

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People do not "practice" anti-Semitism telegramsam. People are either anti-Semites or they are not. You fool.

If you had an ounce of decency you would help us to fight anti-Semites, instead you spend your time peddling yet more anti-Jewish propaganda.

It's bloody disgraceful.

Shame on you.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:15

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Matt, many thanks for your measured comments. Why is it antisemitic to suggest, as the IDI poll does, that a majority of Israelis don't like Arabs, don't want them as neighbours and would like to see them out of the country?


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:19

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It's not, and I never suggested it was.

Posting a blog entitled "Israeli racism in practice" is anti-Jewish propaganda, especially since that is not what this poll says at all.

You fool.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:25

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Matt, thanks for your swift response. The poll suggests that a majority of Israelis are racists -- hence Israeli racism in practice -- because they don't like Arabs, don't want them as neighbours and would like to see them out of the country. Why is this anti-Jewish?


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:31

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T-Spam: "could we have a comment from Harvey Rose"

T-Spam: Try supplying your real name and writing to him c/o ZF. If you do not know how to look up the address on the Internet, Mummy will help I'm sure, even though you are a vexatious little pisher.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:36

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Jonathan, your comments are helpful as ever. Many thanks. Are we to understand that Harvey Rose is not fully in favour of pulling the ZF out of its alliance with the NIF and Abraham Fund over institutionalised racism in Israel?


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:38

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The "poll" suggests no such thing. The "poll" suggests that of the people sampled - 0.004% of Israel's Jewish population - there is a degree of support for the state encouraging Arabs to emigrate (which will never happen) and a desire for self-determination.

The "racism" conjecture is purely your own.

THAT is anti-Jewish propaganda, and you are guilty of peddling it.


jose (not verified)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:39

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80% of French have a dislike for Arabs: France is even better than Israel, while having a smaller proportion of Arabs (twice less at least) than Israel...

I guess it is even worse in UK, Ireland, Spain, Sweden, Poland (for Jews, mainly).


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:41

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Matt, many thanks again. The poll suggests that a majority of Israelis do not want Arabs as neighbours and want the state to encourage them to emigrate. Let's say that a similar poll in thre UK found that a majority didn't want Jews as neighbours and wanted the government to encourage them to leave. Would you not say that that suggested that a majority of Brits were antisemitic and therefore racist? I would.
So why is it anti-Jewish propaganda?


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:43

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josé, many thanks, but I believe the poll is about Israel, not France. I am told that the professional term for this is "whataboutery".


jose (not verified)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:45

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Let's not speak of Muslim countries where an overwhelming majority (around 90%) think Jews should:
- die
- go to jail
- be ethnically cleansed
- disposessed
- tortured

Sometimes all this, in the right order of course.
When was the last time Tspam spoke of the fate of Copts in Egypt?
When was the last time Tspam spoke of the fate of Tibetans in occupied Tibet?

Double standards are a sure sign of antisemitism.


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:46

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The full report is here:

http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/events/ThePresidentsConference/Pages...

Any reasonable person who read it properly would come to the conclusion that Israelis are NOT racist.

One wonders what kind of person would not only draw the precisely opposite conclusion but then feel the need to broadcast that OPINION to the UK Jewish community.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:47

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tspam, how many Palestinians would like to have Jewish neighbours? Why not ask the question posed to Israelis to Palestinians, in order to give a wider context to the attitudes of the region? If one simply focuses on the negatives of one side, one can easily paint a biased picture. That's hardly intelletually honest, is it? And as you know, such "polls" alsways depend on how the question is phrased.

In case you hadn't noticed, there is a war going on tspam. Throughout this war of several decades, Jews in Israel have shown, to their credit, pluralism and tolerance, in circumstances where several of the so-called liberal Western countries who delight in lecturing Israel would have become extreme and intolerant. By contrast, Arab countries and the Palestinians have shown no tolerance at all, outright racism and hatred being the order of the day in Palestinian schools, on Palestinian TV, and official Palestinian policy. This is not the case in Israel (in fact, quite the opposite - with too much self-criticism).

Israel is more tolerant, and the most egalitarian country in the entire region. That you endlessly aim to denigrate it, to the exclusion of all other countries and terror entities in the region, is an obsessive sickness.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:49

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tspam, you are a Jewish antisemite - and I use the word advisedly. If someone exclusively attacks Israel, and holds Israel to a different standard to all others, including their own country, then it is blatant antisemitism.

You should be ashamed. And stop saying "thank you for your comment" - you sound like a demented automaton.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:51

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Jonathan, Matt, et al, many thanks for your calm and measured responses, all of which are very instructive and indicative. The poll, by the Israeli Democracy Institute, is about Israel. I think we'll have to await for polls in other countries to see how racist their populations are. In the meantime, ask yourselves this: if a poll in Britain had suggested that a majority didn't want Jews as neighbours or wanted the government to seek their emigration, would you not consider this even showing that the population was a bit racist?


mattpryor

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:52

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Telegramsam: Since you assure us you are not an anti-Semite we can only take your word for it.

However your analogy fails on several levels, the most glaring difference being that the British Jewish community leadership has not been calling for the deaths of British people for the last 60 years, indoctrinating their children to despise us, blowing up our school buses, strapping explosive to themselves and detonating rat-poison laced rusty nails in discos. Furthermore Jewish nations have not launched successive wars against us in order to annihilate us. If they had, then I would not say that such attitudes were "racist" but "self preservation".

That you would even make such a comparison is utterly contemptible.

Israelis are a peace loving and liberal people, and your attacks against them are despicable.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:54

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Oh, and just to add: many, many thanks for the examples of whataboutery. I will use them in a lecture series on Distracting on Blogs. Once again, you've all been very hepful and a happy chanucah to you all - keep the oily food to a minimum tho, it's not very healthy.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:55

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Matt, an interesting point, but, bearing in mind that racists don't need reasons for hatred, what would you say to a poll that suggested that Jews should leave Britain?


jose (not verified)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 11:59

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I guess that if someone had made a poll in France about Germans right after WW II, he could have a nice opinion of how 'racist' the French were...

Tspam, as always, uses double standards.

And double standards are a sure sign of antisemitism.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:03

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tspam, a simple test. Walking along the beach in Tel Aviv, I saw Jews and Arabs (wearing Islamic dress) simply enjoying the day, having barbecues, with a good atmosphere of everyone just getting along.

Now can you picture someone obviously Jewish by their dress, walking down the beach in Gaza, left alone and feeling safe? How long do you think they'd last?

It's not a trick question.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:05

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tspam, if there was a wave of violence, including dozens of suicide bombings and rocket attacks carried out by Jews, I wouldn't be surprised. Would you?


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:07

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Amber, many thanks for raising the Tel Aviv beach issue. Did you know that some Tel Aviv beaches have an unofficial policy of not allowing Arabs? City supervisors (Pakachim Ironi'im) are regularly called to ask them to leave. Politely at first, but then more forcefully.
Also, are you sure they were Arabs? They could have been Moroccan or Yemeni Jews celebrating something.
The rest, I'm afraid, is that old devil whataboutery.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:07

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tspam, answer this simple question. Which country in the Middle East is more tolerant and egalitarian than Israel?


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:08

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José, many thanks for that. I'm sure it was intended so that I could add it to my forthcoming book and lecture series on Whataboutery. You are very helpful.


amber

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:08

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Wearing Islamic headscarves?


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:11

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Amber, an interesting point as ever, but racists don't need excuses for racism. As for other countries in the Middle East, apart from this being another welcomed example of whataboutery, can we expand it to include other countries that are parliamentary democracies? Apples, as you well know, must be compares with other apples, not with lemons, pears or alfalfa.


jose (not verified)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:11

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I'm sure it was intended so that I could add it to my forthcoming book and lecture series on Whataboutery. You are very helpful.

It was intended to make anyone with a brain understand that there are lies, big lies and statistics!
That is why you were excused.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:12

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Amber, as I am sure you are no doubt aware, Orthodox Jewish women wear headscarfs that are not dissimilar to Islamic ones. It's an easy mistake to make.


jose (not verified)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:13

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Orthodox Jewish women wear headscarfs that are not dissimilar to Islamic ones.

Similar to the MODERATE Islamic ones.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:14

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José, a measured response as ever. But I thank you for continuing to supply me with examples of whataboutery.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:15

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José thanks for agreeing with me on the Islamic headscarf front.


telegramsam

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 12:16

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Amber, I wonder if you used your wide knowledge of Arabic to ascertain whether these women were Arabs/Muslims.

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