israeli oranges in iran (the usual suspects hijack a blog again)


By happygoldfish
July 23, 2010
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this blog was originally about jewish refugees from arab lands and their right to return or compensation

the usual suspects (i'm not including you, deborah) came along and derailed the blog into a discussion of palestinian refugees and whether they left willingly

i asked the moderators to stop this at the start, but they didn't

so i've removed the original text of this blog, and the original title, and i'll re-post them in a fresh blog, at … hopefully, that won't be derailed!

too many blogs here are hijacked by the usual suspects and derailed from the original topic

on most internet forums, posting off-topic is frowned on, and sanctions are applied, but here it seems to be acccepted

well, if they can post off-topic, so can i

israeli oranges in iran

from my little bowl, i noticed recently that iran has been visited with a plague of oranges ° not falling from the sky and killing all the firstborn cattle, but lying unexploded in boxes waiting to terrorise the population ° only the vigilance of the iranian fruit police has exposed this insurgence, with its international connections

the oranges were displayed for sale around teheran, masquerading as good chinese oranges, but they were found to have originated from jaffa, and were imported via dubai in boxes with chinese lettering ° clearly an international conspiracy seeks to undermine the iranian republic with sweetness and easy peelability 

the israeli government has, as is usual on security matters, refused to comment ° but it is known that jerusalem has been visited by a top american spy with the code-name agent orange ° and a rabbi in jaffa recently gave a sermon on the verse "out of sweetness came forth strength"

israel's orange enrichment program is an open secret, and the whole city of tel-aviv "never sleeps" in its single-minded sixty-year quest for the "big orange"

already iranian dissidents are openly eating these oranges in public, in defiance of the strict fruit laws ° by the cunning zionist trick of removing the labels, they are making it impossible for the fruit police to tell who is a good peace-loving citizen and who is a dangerous dissident and counter-revolutionary

as a result, the government is trying to recall all oranges, officially for "safety inspections", but in reality for stockpiling for use against iran's arab neighbours ° but the people are hiding and even burying their oranges, and bringing them out for wild anti-government orange parties when the inspectors have gone

the police have arrested all the usual black marketeers, but they cannot find the orange marketeers who are running the orange underground ° anarchists in isfahan started a rumour that israel had grown an army of mutant oversized oranges which were parachuting into iran disguised as grapefruit, and many innocent grapefruit were crushed in the panic

the orange revolution has started! o people of iran, rise up for freedom of fruit! ° remember how william of orange freed ireland from the austrians by rescuing an orange from his son's head! ° where oranges lead, let the people follow! ° the people's flag is deepest orange!

i see a future in which oranges of every persuasion have a place in paradise ° i see a future in which the duck shall lie down with the orange, and a little child shall eat them ° i see that the future is sweet! the future is orange!

i see a lot from my little bowl!

hmm … the usual suspects should have no difficulty staying off-topic from that!

ok then

jon i cohen, you can start

COMMENTS

DeborahMaccoby

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 15:07

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Happygoldfish, have a look at this link from the Justice for Jews website - scroll down to find the main article and you will find comments by Avi Shlaim and also by me in agreement with Avi Shlaim:

http://www.justiceforjews.com/jr2008.pdf

Jon seems to be citing the oft-quoted story about Arab radio broadcasts urging Palestinians to leave in 1948. This has been shown by Benny Morris and other Israeli new historian to be untrue. See "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" by Benny Morris (Cambridge University Press, 2004), p.594: "Regarding April-May and the start of the main stage of the exodus, I have found no evidence to show that the AHC or the Arab leaders outside Palestine issued blanket instructions, by radio or otherwise, to the inhabitants to flee."

best wishes,

Deborah


DeborahMaccoby

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 15:15

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Further to my previous comment: the comments by Avi Shlaim and by me are on the second page - it's difficult to copy and paste them. Note that Shlaim points out that the Jews from Arab lands should not actually be called "refugees", because the vast majority of them did not leave as a result of government policy but because of attacks on the popular level brought about by hostility to the new State of Israel. He points out that the two situations are not comparable.

Deborah


Jon_i_Cohen

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 15:31

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DM
Just read the evidence, there is so much of it it would take up too much room here; you can quote Benny Morris as much as you like but the evidence, written and aural/recorded is irefutable.
The comment you attribute to Shlaim is rubbish - it is the exact opposite of what he says, it was most definately government policy of the Arab countries at the time to expel the Jews; again documented and irefutable historical evidence - not opinion.
Of course the two scenarios are not comparable, the Jews were forced to leave the Arab Countries and should therefore be entititled to compensation under international law; no indigenous Arab was forced to leave Israel during 1948/9 due to Israeli government policy - those that left did so of their own accord and under persuasion of their own leaders.


Jon_i_Cohen

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 15:35

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DM
Here is some more background for you and some of the evidence that you are obviously ignorant of:-

The role of Arab leaders in urging the Arab population to leave Israel in 1948/9 is similarly well-documented.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, declared:

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re­enter and retake possession of their country.

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948­49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.

Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al­Janub (August 16, 1948):
The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.

One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said:

The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.
Habib Issa said in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951):

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

And Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:

The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.

In a few, exceptional cases accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees, The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. This insignificant element of the issue has been magnified by pro-Palestinian Arab advocates as if it were the whole problem.

The fate of these Arab refugees from Israel, a problem created by the Arabs themselves !!!!!! Not Israel!! and it is NOT Israel's responsibilty!!


happygoldfish

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 16:30

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oh this is hopeless

i specifically asked "please don't … try to drag my blog off-topic", but now the discussion is almost exclusively about palestinian refugees, and whether they left voluntarily

(i asked the moderators to delete jon's first comment, since he was clearly trying to derail the blog, but they didn't do so, and now he's succeeded)

i'll let the two of you slug it out for a few days, and then maybe i'll start another blog on the original subject


amber

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 18:18

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Maccoby, you are of course right - the two situations aren't comparable, as they were far worse for the Jews. The pogroms in Iraq, Morocco and Yemen, and of course the aprtheid dhimmi system under which Jews had to suffer for generations. One musn't forget the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea and Samari as well, and the massacres carried out by Palestinian Arabs. That's without mentioning the Mufti's direct role in the Holocaust - which led to more Jewish refugees at the war's end.


amber

Fri, 07/23/2010 - 18:19

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Why is refugee status hereditary for Palestinians, alone, of all peoples on the earth?

It's like Jews aged 20 in the UK today calling themselves German or Russian refugees.

Ridiculous.


Jon_i_Cohen

Sat, 07/24/2010 - 10:58

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amber
excellent points!


amber

Sat, 07/24/2010 - 13:06

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Thanks Jon - sorry for the typos!


amber

Sat, 07/24/2010 - 13:08

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Furthermore Maccoby, your organization's involvement in protests glorifying the antisemitic terror organization Hizbollah is a complete and shameful disgrace.

You should be ashamed.


Ben Abuyah

Sun, 07/25/2010 - 17:53

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Amber:

"Why is refugee status hereditary for Palestinians, alone, of all peoples on the earth?"

Well, what about people claiming a right to live in Israel under the Law of Return because their ancestors (possibly) lived there two thousand years ago?


raycook

Sun, 07/25/2010 - 18:13

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@Ben Abuyah - Jews don't claim a Right of Return it is afforded them by Israel.

One thing is certain - there were no Arabs in Israel/Palestine 2000 years ago as they colonised the Levant much later. But it's a historical fact there were Jews.

There has been a continuous Jewish presence in 'Palestine' since antiquity and a proven DNA blood line.

There is a 3500 year connection between Israel and the Jews and it is a fundamental part of Jewish liturgy, peoplehood and culture throughout the ages.

And anyway, you are comparing apples with pears in an attempt to perfrom a sleight of hand.

How many Jewish refugees are there from the 800,000 absorbed by Israel after being expelled from Arab lands for no other reasaon than they were Jewish and as an act of revenge for the legal creation of Israel by UN vote and resolution? Answer zero.

Palestinian refugees are the only refugees in the history of the UN granted a special status of being refugees by birth.

How many refugees were absorbed by Arab countries? Very few, they preferred refugee camps for 60 years so they could bemoan their plight and become a political pawn.

How many Pakistanis are waiting in refugee camps to return to India? How many sudeten Germans to the Czech Republic or Western Poland? How many Greek Cypriots to Northern Cyprus? All fat zeroes.


amber

Sun, 07/25/2010 - 22:03

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I see ben Abuyah - so you don't believe the Jews are entitled to a homeland at all.

Nice way of not answering the point, by the way.

Why is it hereditary - and why is this reserved exclusively for the Palestinian Arabs?


Ben Abuyah

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 09:34

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amber: No, I don't believe that Jews are entitled to a national homeland, any more than I believe that any other national / cultural / ethnic group are inherently entitled to a national homeland.

And I repeat - what is the difference between Palestinians being granted refugee status by the UN because their ancestors previously lived in Palestine, and Jews being given a right of return by the State of Israel because their ancestors previously lived in Eretz Yisrael?


amber

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 12:03

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Ben Abuyah, so you obviously don't believe anyone has a right to govern themselves, to self determination (including the Palestinians)?

You confuse two separate issues. Refugee status and national identity are two different things. The Palestinian Arabs are accorded refugee status on a hereditary basis - it begs the question whether someone can be a refugee from somewhere they've never been.

I take it that as you are so vehement in rejecting the Jews' right of return, by your own logic, you also reject the hereditary nature of the Palestinians' refugee status?


Anonymous

Mon, 07/26/2010 - 14:52

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