Israel creating antisemitism currency in exchange for its actions

Jews across the world cannot and should not be held accountable for Israeli state policies, but clearly condemnation of these policies and separating yourself from this as a Jew is certainly a good thing

"Like an obscene, or morally corrupt uncle we tolerate Israel as family."

John Gold, I'm not sure if you are Jewish or not, because of a previous post of yours favouring Christian Missionary activity in Israel.

If you are, then comparing Israel to 'an obscene or morally corrupt uncle' is a disgusting example of self-hatred. If you are not, then it bothers nobody, (we have some 2K years of experience on such matters) but just say exactly who you are.

"... we tolerate Israel .." - what a condescending statement. Just exactly who is the "we" to whom you are hitching your waggon? Who exactly do you represent?

"ideal becomes tarnished and our very souls are lost in the process".

You have very obviously never been in any kind of physical danger, of what rules apply at such a time, and equally obviously have no concept whatsoever of what Judaism does and does not allow in time of war.

I mention Judaism, because funnily enough this is the Jewish Chronicle, and we are discussing the Jewish State of Israel.

From the overall content of your post, you appear to be viewing things as a spectator at a cricket match, and are applying rules of cricket and 'fair play' to a subject that couldn't possibly be further removed from that game.

"Look at Northern Ireland to see where winning at all costs damages communities and countries"

- what an irrelevant comparison! Britain was never in danger of destruction from Northern Ireland, and I'm not going to explain to you what would happen if Israel lost a single war.

"Antisemitism will rise with Israel's policies and actions"
- and without Israel's policies and actions anti-semitism will NOT rise, and thus anti-semitism only appeared for the first time with the establishment of the State of Israel?

"Jewish people need to condemn the stealing of numerous peoples' passports of four different European countries ..."
- what exactly is your spiritual or other authority, to tell Jewish people what they need to do? And how do you know that passports were stolen and not lent willingly by loyal Israeli citizens in order to assist Israel's national security activities? Where do you get off accusing of theft with no proof whatsoever?

" Israel and immigrant Jews, will no doubt yet again be the authors of their own downfall."
- it sounds very much as though this is what you are wishing for. I am keeping a copy of this (and similar posts), so that my great-grandchildren will have a good laugh in the distant future, here in Jerusalem.

Many years ago I sent down in the library of the Hebrew University here in Jerusalem, browsing thru back copies of the Jewish Chronicle over a period covering the years between World Wars I and II.

I was amazed at what I found! Following the announcement of the Declaration by Lord Balfour recognizing the need to set up a Jewish home in what was then Palestine, Anglo-Jewry - as represented by the JC at that time - was virulently against the Declaration! I don't know how representative the JC was of feeling at that time, but those are the available documents. I do know that my late grandfather was the Rabbi of a shul in East London named the Great Zionist Synagogue, but the JC reports public (Jewish) feelings in the opposite direction.

Reading between the lines, Anglo-Jewry - in its JC representation - felt that now the British would say to them: "OK, we've given you a National Home, now buzz off from here and set it up".

That is certainly representative of Anglo-Jewish feeling at that time according to the JC, and I feel that similar feeling is now prompting a few knee-jerk reactions from British assimilationist Jews (and possibly Jews from other countries as well), who feel that their loyalty to Britain is being called into question because of an assumed support for Israel, who has been accused (but not yet proven) of using British passports illegally.

Being British and supporting Israel as a Jew, can occasionally be conflicting and problematic.

It usually blows over - Anglo-Jewry is certainly in no danger over this affair - but freedom of speech is not an obligation, its a privilege.

"And the educated at this time will remain silent".

'Theodor Herzl's' vision.

It is founded on the ideas which are a common product of all civilized nations It would be immoral if we would exclude anyone, whatever his origin, his descent, or his religion, from participating in our achievements. For we stand on the shoulders of other civilized peoples.. Therefore, we have to repay our debt. There is only one way to do it, the highest tolerance. Our motto must therefore be, now and ever: Man, you are my brother.

- Israel is in the moggy pits of darkeness and the way the country is being managaed is a threat to it's own inhabitants (I say that not just Jewish people) - and with recent actions is sticking two finger up at the world... When it all backfires, as it is doing, no doubt the antisemitism card will come out. But most mature and intelligent people know that much of life, highs and lows, revolve round a simple principle of cause and effect.

According to you it's ok to steal nationalities passports, and murder 'terrorist suspects' without a court case (you then probably call Israel a democracy), and in other peoples countries that are not involved in your war, and don't want to be either. Not only does the country do these despicable things, but then shows no humility to apologise or show any concern. It's seems Israel don't like or have any respect for any countries (only America that's jumped into bed with for protection and mutual control over the middle east).

I don't wish Israel's downfall (or anyone else for that matter), but only teenagers go round ranting why the world hate them and don't realise that you earn respect and friendships by your actions.

From The Times February 18, 2010
Melanie Reid

We’re all thrilled by Mossad the movie

Of course we should condemn extrajudicial murder, but I still can’t help admiring Israel’s nerve
Steven Soderbergh, evidently, was only kidding when he said that there would be no Ocean’s 14. He’s plainly been hard at work filming in a hotel in Dubai, as we can see from the trailers running on News at Ten. With Mossad operatives filling in as movie extras.

Now I know we really, really shouldn’t joke about these things. I should be wearing black and have a long face and be uttering pieties about the disgraceful “extrajudicial” killing of the Hamas military chief Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, apparently by Israeli agents.

All nice people, quite rightly, are adopting the proper moral stance and expressing outrage and disgust at this affront to international law and justice. But the rest of us ... well, we simply can’t wait until the movie comes out. Largely thanks to the blurry CCTV pictures, there is an element to the assassination in Dubai that is appallingly irresistible. What the secret agents did — and, critically, what we saw them do — was compelling and breathtaking in its cleverness.

Box office, in other words.

It was also, in the darkest sense, comic — hence the feeling of Ocean’s 11, 12 and 13.

That the agents were using fake identities, one of them being that of Paul Keeley, 42, a bewildered Kent-born odd-job man who was living in Israel, just added to the sense that this was too good to be true. Where were George Clooney and Brad Pitt? To see the images of tubby tennis players bimbling across the hotel lobby and into the lift with the Danny Devito-like figure of Mr al-Mabhouh, and then following him so that they could note down his room number, was to know that this was an incomparable heist; a case of life imitating art imitating life. That it was a rare glimpse into the shadowy world of international espionage makes it all the more seductive.

Now everything I write, of course, is on the understanding that the Israelis refuse to comment on allegations that they are responsible for the killing. But their motive, it is said, is that Mr al-Mabhouh is rumoured to have played a key role in smuggling Iranian-funded arms to Islamist militants in Gaza, and may have been on his way to Iran. And just because the Israelis haven’t said that they did it doesn’t mean for a minute that they weren’t responsible.

It is an unfashionable thing to say, but I have a considerable admiration for the Israeli way of doing things. They want something, they get it. They perceive someone as their deadly enemy, they kill them. They get hit, they hit back. They don’t waste time explaining or justifying or agonising; nor do they allow their detractors to enter their country and then afford them generous welfare payments. They just act. No messing. No scruples. Not even a shrug and a denial, just a rather magnificent refusal to debate anything.

This absolutism, based on their history, carries its own moral weight; one that is rather electrifying in a Western world grown flabby with niceties. Clearly, the Israelis could defend their policies if they wanted to, but they quite simply can’t be bothered. It’s a waste of breath. One admires them for that, too.

I’ve felt this way ever since the Entebbe raid in 1976, an occasion when the Israelis showed Hollywood a thing or two. After two Palestinians and two Germans had hijacked an aircraft on a flight that had originated in Israel, the Israeli army simply swooped in, killed the hijackers and freed all but three of the hostages. It was decisive, bloody and clever. Lieutenant-Colonel “Yoni” Netanyahu, the older brother of the present Prime Minister, Binyamin, was the only commando killed in the fighting.

They also outdid fiction after the massacre at the Munich Olympics in 1972, when they hunted down 11 Palestinians who were responsible and eliminated them wherever they were in the world. Aided by fake passports and disguises, Mossad agents employed methods including a booby-trapped telephone, a bomb planted in a bed and a raid in Beirut in which the present Defence Minister, Ehud Barak, dressed as a woman. Nobody caught it on CCTV, but on the ground that human nature can never resist this kind of stuff, Steven Spielberg made it into the Oscar-nominated 2005 movie Munich.

Maybe, as the West becomes increasingly gentle and polite, and pays those monthly direct debits to Amnesty International, we need the Israelis to remind us that the world is not made according to our template. Maybe that is why we are drawn towards tales of uncompromising, ruthless derring-do. How else to explain the veneration of the SAS, the worldwide glut of books and movies on covert operations?

"According to you it's ok to steal nationalities passports, and murder 'terrorist suspects' without a court case (you then probably call Israel a democracy), and in other peoples countries that are not involved in your war, and don't want to be either."

Quite right, all the way. By Jewish Law all the above are acceptable. Although you have yet to prove that passports were stolen and not lent willingly by loyal Israeli subjects.

DON'T TWIST THE TRUTH for your own convenience; the man killed was a murderer by his own admission, I've heard him on TV admitting to killing 2 Israeli soldiers.

" other peoples countries that are not involved in your war" - whatever solves the problem is good. If you don't like it, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it.

The war against terror is _everybody's_ war. There's no such thing as non-involvement. Bin-Laden proved that.

Yes John Gold I quite agree. Israel (or whoever killed him) should have requested extradition of Mr al‑Mabhouh from Dubai. I'm sure they would have complied. Then he should have been put on trial.

Just like the US gets Al Qaeda terrorists extradited from Afghanistan and puts them on trial. It would be so much easier if they just used unmanned Drones to blow them up, wouldn't it Mr Gold? Good job they are so very scrupulous like you.....

And how awful to forge passports! No other Intelligence Sevice would dream of doing that would it? Only Israel (or whoever did it).

These naughty naughty Jews can only cause antisemitism, I quite agree Mr Gold. Never mind thet fact that if Israel had been created ten years earlier, millions of Jews might have been saved from the biggest antisemite the world has ever known.

What a very moral chappie you are Mr Gold! And how wonderful that you are so concerned about antisemitism!

John Hoffman.

If it was Mossad (who else would it be? some people that have watched to many James Bond movies and thought the'd give it a go)?
It was not only a diplomatic nightmare, but how many Jews does it take to change a lightbulb? (or assassinate someone)... It looked liked like a comedy..

So is America the standard of how things should be done?
So when are you are going to open a 'Guantanamo bay'? (it needs a new lease holder - maybe apply)?
And I've also heard 'Abu Ghraib's' free - you might get two for the price of one!
Ask them nicely they may even throw in a jet plane and a few bribed states in order to put rendition into your portfolio of law, order and diplomacy.

Avraham.

According to you Torah allows this - but your understanding of Torah is obviously not up to scratch.
Also this is not about looking at things in solely a religious way, it is about maintaing relationships with other countries and their people - and these actions are not the way to go about that, that's clear even for a child to see.

The way Israel are serving out justice like this, and helicopter gunship blowing up cars, with a suspect in while the people in the car don't get a trial is also not Torah (or modern democracy). It's basically caveman style law and justice.

It likes like we're plains apart in our thinking, so may as well agree to disagree on this.

'Avraham'

another note to add to the above.

"The war against terror is _everybody's_ war. There's no such thing as non-involvement. Bin-Laden proved that."

America (New York) was bombed on account of Zionism and America's support for it - it is not the worlds war although the world has been brought into it!
And like Iran 'the world' is being manipulated into a war with it, when it's Israel's problem (and a highly exaggerated one).

John Gold-

I find your position curious at best and disingenuous at best.

First things first.

Outrage at Israelis using foreign passports is laughable. Every spy organization in the world does exactly that and has done so since travel documents have been issued. Have you ever read a Jean Le Carre novel?

Secondly, there is no such thing as a 'disproportionate' response to calls for genocide. For over half a century the Arab world has called for the genocide of Jews in addition to the eradication of the state of Israel. The message is repeated in school curriculum, in media and often repeated from the pulpit. They are there for all to see.

The Israelis have every right to defend themselves in any way they see fit. Europeans in particular are in no position to criticize the Israelis. They cannot be held to blame if they are less than enthusiastic in depending on European support and help in defending themselves from those for whom genocide is a calling.

Lastly, your characterization of a malignant Zionism is absurd.

There is nothing Zionists do to Arabs that their own dysfunctional political and ‘religious’ leadership haven’t already done, to insure the failure of Arab society.

America wasn't bombed because of failures of Zionism. America was bombed because of the tangible successes of Zionism and democracy as a whole, successes that the Arab world cannot now even hope to match.

Without the Zionist bogeyman the Arab world would have to look in the mirror.

Mah.

What's laughable is not that "foreign passports..Every spy organization in the world does exactly that" - but that they got caught and looked like groucho marx times 3....

Fact is Europeans can criticize Israeli policy! For Jewish diaspora and for for others too, If you think the holocaust has somehow taken away free speech and rational for all for, all time since, then you're sincerely misguided.

Every Brit, French, German, Irish will now have suspicion clouding their travels - and could even be in mortal danger - this is not something to be flippant about, and something they're not going to thank Israel for (or for a majority of Jewish diaspora that seem to think it's funny).

Israel are continuing in their isolationist policies, (ignoring USA and Europe in making a 2 state ASAP), but happy to draw us all into the wars. This will breed more suspicion, condemnation and hate.

America wasn't bombed because of failure or success of Zionism, but only because 'Zionism' has been polluted by a form of nationalism and brutal force that has shown continual and grave disrespect for Arabs living in the land (even if some of them relate to a failed uprising many decades ago).

If you think bringing America into the war, and now implicating Europe is fine - any wonder antisemitism is rising (even if governments approve, the average person that is brought into this mess or affected by it, or sent to war on the behalf of a regime they don't agree with - is going to ask 'who's war is this, and how did I get involved'?)

"According to you Torah allows this - but your understanding of Torah is obviously not up to scratch. Also this is not about looking at things in solely a religious way, it is about maintaing relationships with other countries and their people - and these actions are not the way to go about that, that's clear even for a child to see."

I am willing to bet that my understanding of the Torah surpasses yours in every possible field. What exactly is your Toranic background? (I still don't believe you are Jewish, you still refuse to state your religion.)

And you cannot dictate to Israel 'what its about'; by your standards, the State would no longer exist. You cannot dictate to us which way "to go about it" - your opinions have been massively rejected at recent Israeli elections.

Mr Gold:

'Got caught'? Aren't you getting ahead of yourself?

Yes, Europeans can indeed criticize European policy- so what? It isn't as if Europeans have ever displayed an uber morality. Simply expressing an opinion is just that, a simple expression. It carriers with it no extra weight.

Your concern about every Brit, Frenchman and German is touching, but as I noted, European spy agencies have been assuming the identities of Europeans ever since travel documents were invented. That applies to Asian spy agencies and even Arab spy agencies. Get over it- spycraft is a dirty business and always will be. Simply asserting that the 'majority' of Jews are upset with Israel on the issue is absurd. If simple assertions about a majority were to be considered gospel, your opinions would put you in a decidedly small and irrelevant minority.

You also say that Zionism is 'polluted'. How so? Had the Arab nations done 10% for their citizens that Zionism did for Jews, the Arab Middle East would not be the poster child for a political cesspool, the greatest assemblage of failed states in the recorded history of man. Do you really want to play the comparison game? Do you want to talk about real racism or real apartheid?

Finally, Israel is 'isolated' only by the media savvy progressives. Poll after poll shows that the American and European heartland is far more supportive of Israel than the progressives would have you believe- and the proof is in the pudding. The Jewish lobby, no matter how impressive is small and wouldn't stand a chance against a deliberate shift in policies by the major political parties. Israel is not defended because of the Jews. Israel is defended because there are a large and influential number of non Jews who find progressive ideologies and rank antisemitism disguised as anti Zionism revolting. No political party, save for those on the hard right and the progressive left are willing to alienate large numbers over voters.

Antisemitism is not on the because there are those on the fringe right even more upset with Israel. Antisemitism is on the rise because progressives can no longer be bothered to hide their own racism.

As I noted earlier, there is no such thing as a disproportionate response to calls for genocide.

Avraham.

Regarding my Toranic background lets just say that I know that G-d cares for all people (as created them) - any anything that can alleviate anyone's pain or discomfort in the world is to be sought for.
I'm not going to get into a spirituality test with you, as it defeats the object - like me saying 'I'm more humble than you', and you replying 'no you're not i am'..

Mah -

Zionism has many great elements as I think that it started with G-d therefore it must be good.
However,r racism and chauvinism has crept into the mix.
It's true to say that without the current christian nations support, Israel would struggle badly (and be very isolated).
However you forget it was the 'United Nations' (all countries on earth)- not just Europe or America that proposed the two state system that Israel continues to reject.