Israel and Britain: when friends fall out (Daily Telegraph)

Stephen, if Israelis wanted peace and a two-state solution as you suggest, they would be constantly voting in a Meretz-Chadash coalition, not the bunch of bigots, fascists and fundamentalists that they have now.

moshetzarfati2, if you wanted peace and a two-state solution, you would not constantly employ the arguments and the language of the Israel-hater, the anti-Semite and the Hamas terrorist.

More intemperate language. Why? Are you telling me that the parties in Israel's ruling coalition are not bigots, fascists and fundamentalists? The Likud, Shas and Yisrael Beiteinu want Jewish-only neighbourhoods and towns. Shas wants to introduce laws against non-Jews and non-observant Jews and supports gender separation on buses. Yisrael Beiteinu has introduced legislation that is designed to discriminate against Israel's non-Jewish minority.
So tell me what I wrote was wrong.

moshe: What you wrote was wrong. The presence of far right and religious parties in the Israeli government is the result of a system of proportional representation leading to coalitions. Some Israelis voted for them, most want peace and a two-state solution.

"More intemperate language."

There was nothing intemperate about my language.

"Why? etc. etc."

1) I was referring to virtually every single post you have ever made at this newspaper.

2) Whilst they certainly have one or two little problems, compared to your friends and colleagues in Hamas and Hezbollah and indeed throughout the Arab world, they are as pure as the driven snow.

3) It is not Israel or her government that is the fascist but you. It also goes without saying that anyone who would think of making that comparison is evil.

You are, or at least claim to be, an immigrant to these shores. It that is true, you serve as one of the arguments against mass immigration. Leaving aside the fact you are not gainfully employed (how could you be when you spend all day here?), it is outrageous how you spend your time dwelling constantly on the affairs of another state. Surely it would be more appropriate for you to be far more concerned with the many terrible crimes which have been committed in recent years by this nation, the country which was benevolent enough to provide you with a home: the rape of Iraq, Afghanistan and Serbia, and the deaths of countless thousands of innocent citizens of those nations; the illegal occupations of the Malvinas, Ireland and Gibraltar; the ongoing support for a criminal banking system (in its own way as rapacious and wicked as the Nazi war machine); the refusal to apologise for the terrible crimes committed against the German people during World War II; the effective complicity in the Rwandan genocide.

And Britain is quite possibly the best of Europe, a place which really has not changed very much since the vast majority of its citizens collaborated in one way or another in the worst genocide in modern history.

Nicole, sorry, but what you wrote does not compute. The only way these far right and fundamentalist parties are able to form a coalition is because a majority of Israelis voted for them. If they hadn't voted for them, these parties would be in opposition.

Joshua, read your posts again to see where you are being intemperate. You are making stupid allegations which you couldn't possibly back up. And I note that you make no effort to try and refute the claim that Israel is governed by a coalition of fascist and fundamentalist parties (with Labour as a fig-leaf). I explained why I thought that was the case.
I'm no friend of Hamas or Hizbollah, but Israel is getting very much like them. And in doing so, is playing into their hands.
I don't claim to be an immigrant to these shores, nor have I ever claimed that so I'd suggest that, if you are Jewish, you are the descendant of someone who came here as part of mass immigration. I'm almost certain that your family did not arrive in England with the Normans, the Angles, the Saxons or the Vikings. So stop with the BNP rubbish about immigrants.

"I'm no friend of Hamas or Hizbollah" - you are getting to sound more like Galloway every day.

I am no friend or supporter of Hamas, I just think that as a democratically elected government..............

Yes, read Pollard's piece in the Telegraph. Bring back David Rowan! It was so refreshing to have someone intelligent and modern at the helm. Pollard's piece is quite staggering in its idiocy but what should you expect from an editor of the JC who is a neo-nazi apologist (the shameful Kaminski episode). Pollard's editorship of this paper is such a sad indictment - proof that our community has no leadership. We need our own version of J Street in the UK and a newspaper/website that reflects the opinions of members of the Jewish community who are willing to engage with the issues with intelligence and humanity - thank god for these blog pages where at least some of these people make an appearance. Obama is completely right - the previous two US administrations' unwillingness to stand up to Israeli manipulation does Jews no good in the long run. And really we need a one state solution - a secular, pluralistic Israel-Palestine where Muslims, Christians, Jews, all faiths have equal rights. Sadly, I believe the 2 state solution will fail. Hundreds of years of good Jewish-Muslim relations were terminated in 1948 by the project for a Jewish homeland which took on all the worst aspects of the European colonialism that had raped half the world in the previous century. Not such a good start.

I am sure Stephen Pollard is more than capable of defending himself against this left wing drivel.
Just sad to see another left wing ideolog blogging on the Jewish Chronicle web site.
Your case for the de-legitimisation of Israel is better suited to the Guardian - NOT the JC web site.
Nobody here is interested in your left-wing, 2-digit IQ, Guardianesque rubbish.
" a secular, pluralistic Israel-Palestine where Muslims, Christians, Jews, all faiths have equal rights."
Where did you copy and past that one from?
Israel is the Jewish State and it is here to stay.
Every piece of Archaeological and Historical evidence ever unearthed has proven the tangible, physical ties that Jews have to the Land Of Israel.
In 1948 for practical reasons the Jews had to accept the area that was offered and as you well know the 2 state solution was offered to the Arabs - they refused and sarted a war - which they lost - I say again LOST.
That is it - through antiquity there never was a Palestinian Arab Nation, there never was a Palestinian Arab Country, and my left-wing friend, let me asure you that there never will be a Palestinian Arab Country.
By the way, which one do you want? a Hamastan in Gaza? or a Fatastan in Judea and Samarian?
Perhaps you want both?
Well dream on you are not going to get either.

Jon, why does reading your posts always give me a strange sense of morbid deja-vu... Funny that you accuse people of copying and pasting when most of the words you use yourself you have used at least a dozen times before....

*cough cough* ahem... BORING!!!!

Dear Jon
I am in fact Jewish and certainly no left wing ideologue. I have lived in Israel and am a graduate of the Machon programme, a former BBYO madrich and someone who cares deeply for my people and my heritage.
It would appear also that, unlike the Jewish Chronicle of my youth, there is indeed room for discussion of this type on this website.
As for my 'cut and pasted' opinions, having talked extensively with friends and colleagues from all over the Jewish world and middle east I can assure you that they are entirely my own. Peace is much harder than war.

You know what Jon: I have Jewish friends and Arab friends and actually have conversations with real, living intelligent, traveled, well-informed human beings - some of whom are children of Holocaust survivors and some who grew up in civil war Beirut. And do you know what? We're all pretty similar - most people aren't fanatics and basically want to find a way to live in peace, together. The current situation is not working and the 2 state solution is looking more and more unachievable all the time.

On balance neither you or I are going to have much affect on the middle east peace process. I do what I can to promote what I believe in and I am sure you do the same. Many decent and civilized people would share a lot of my opinions and increasingly also many Jews who are no longer willing to accept the 'don't question Israel' doctrine. I think more people in the world are with me rather than you. These people aren't anti-semites, or Guardian reading left wing ideologues, or Jewish self-haters. These people are ordinary, decent and human.

Do you know what Jon? The Jewish faith I was brought up in taught us to follow a series of commandments, the aim of which was to help us live well together. I was brought up with a faith of deep humanity born out of centuries of oppression. Many Jews look at Israel and its politicians and see a political ideology that runs deeply contrary to Judaism's core.

So look, you can throw your lot in with Bibi, I'll throw mine in with Barenboim.

Good luck!

So so pleased that the Jerusalem Quartet was yesterday disrupted at the Wigmore Hall. Why should they be allowed to play here?
Well done to those who took part.

No party in Israel wants Jewish only towns or laws against non-Jews. The Kach party that once did stand on such a manifesto was barred from the election because its manifesto was racist.

All parties in the coalition respect Israel's Declaration of Independence, which stated "THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Pro...

The Israeli government and the member parties respect the findings of Israel's Supreme Court.

The following is a finding that they made 10 years ago:

“In H.C.J 6698/95 Ka’adan v. The Israel Lands Administration (ILA) (08.03.2000), The High Court of Justice held that the State of Israel was prohibited from allocating State land to the Jewish Agency for Israel for the purpose of establishing a community which would discriminate between Jews and non-Jews. The petitioners, an Arab couple, wished to build a home in Katzir, a communal village in the Eron River region at the north of Israel. Katzir was established in 1982 by the Jewish Agency in collaboration with the Katzir Cooperative Society, on State land that was allocated to the Jewish Agency (via the Israel Lands Administration) for such a purpose.
The court held in the Ka’adan case that the State may not allocate land directly to its citizens on the basis of religion or nationality. This conclusion is derived both from the values of Israel as a democratic State and from the values of Israel as a Jewish State. The Jewish character of the State does not permit Israel to discriminate between its citizens. In Israel, Jews and non-Jews are citizens with equal rights and responsibilities. The court emphasized that the State will be viewed as engaging in impermissible discrimination even if it is also willing to allocate State land for the purpose of establishing an exclusively Arab town, as long as it permits a group of Jews, without distinguishing characteristics, to establish an exclusively Jewish town on State land.”

It's April Fool's Day, so let's have a Purim spiel.
Gerald Kaufman went to the States and wanted to buy a pair of the fancy braces he so adores. Remembering they are called Suspenders, acroos the pond, he asked for a black pair with red hearts decoration. The salesman, seeing the person in front of him, offered a suspender belt cir The Rocky Horror Show!