Is British Jewry threatened by The Nazi Right or The Islamofascist Left?

Obviously the EDL/BNP are a bigger threat and those poor mugs who allow them to stand with them should at least hang their heads in shame, if not apologise to the community. The very thought of Jews standing with Nazis is abhorrent.

The JC's line is that The EDL is playing a sophisticated game, just waiting to drag British Jewry and The Israelis into their white working-class council flats where old-fashioned gas ovens await. Apparently, none of these Yobbos can afford the latest electric versions.

(Some of you might remeber that not so long ago, Miraim Shaviv (former JC foreign affairs editor) wrote an article stating that The EDL and Geert Wilders were no friends of Israel.)

And on that Anthony, Miriam was right. Here's what the EDL/BNP say:
A friend of mine went with a dozen of his mates … the EDL battered f*ck out of The Ethnics. He said he never saw any ethnics with the EDL and him and the 2 or 3 thousand there couldn’t give a f*ck about Israel or Zionism and all they care about is beating up ethnics and Muslims in particular.

And

F*ck all those who shout Zionist sympathisers and all the rest of it. For the vast majority it just isn’t about this…..it’s about making a stand against an aggressive invader who has seriously abused the indigenous people of these Isles.

So when's Jonathan and the apologists going to apologise

telegramsam,

Are you happy "standing" with the Islamofascist Left?

You are making a huge assumption, AP. I don't stand with the extreme left or the far right. In fact, I think I have writen here on numerous occasions that standing with Hamas's and Hizbollah's proxies here in London, like JfJfP, Neturei Karta and IJV do, places them in the same league as those extremists from the ZF who have no problem standing with the EDL/BNP. I hope that is clear now

If Miriam Shaviv believes that people who don't publicly confront the Islamofascist Left are "friends of Israel".... then I think that she is deluded.

telegramsam,

And what about Tony Greenstein? Do you "stand" with him?

No I do not stand with Greenstein, as I pointed out, I view the JfJfP and IJV as equally bad as those who stand with the EDL/BNP.

You can confront the extreme Left, AP, but you don't have to stand with their mirror image on the far right. Life's far more nuanced than that.

And Anthony: Are you now or have you ever been a member of the EDL/BNP?
Stop being so McCarthyist

telegramsam,

so you distance yourself from Greenstein's attack on Hoffman?

I am not a member of The EDL or The BNP. But I certainly resent the British Jewish establishment telling me who I should, or shouldn't, support.

What a silly question. Obviously. I was the first one here to offer JH condolences. I might not like him and certainly despise the way he treats opponents here, and the way he refuses to dissociate from the EDL/BNP, but Greenstein's and Philowhatsits' were a low blow.

It's very simple, AP. Jews shouldn't stand with Nazis. End of.

I have checked out the Ahava gig on a Saturday afternoon. People stand wherever they like. I spoke to the Boycott crowd and the anti-Boycott crowd. It wasn't a big deal. Everybody was extremely polite. I took my mother along and she is 87yrs. She chatted to everybody and after a while, we went across the road for coffee and cake.

Now, I wouldn't for one moment dream to speak on Jonathan's behalf. These are my views and he might disagree with them. But as far as I am concerned, Jonathan is under no obligation to start attacking The EDL. If a few of them rock up at Ahava and oppose the boycott, why on earth should he?

Because, AP, Jews don't stand with Nazis. End of. What part of that is difficult to understand?

If you believe that all members of The EDL are Nazis then you are totally meshuggah.

British Jewry need a wake-up call and it is time that the British Jewish establishment got an alarm clock ringing.

The real danger of modern anti-semitism is emerging not from the Nazi right, but from the Islamofascist Left. Assorted thugs with Nazi tattoos are not the problem. The threat is from the Islamists and the anti-zionist Left; they have paired up and created a poisonous cocktai.

Now, one has to ask a very iimportant question... "why is it that something that is so blindingly obvious, seems to be beyond the intellect of the the communal leadership?" Are they really so stupid? Or do they have their own agenda? My guess is that they are allied to the wider non-Jewish British establishment and do not want to be seen as creating too much of a fuss. After all, Israel isn't quite the flavour of the month at the Foreign Office.

Board of Deputies chief executive Jon Benjamin said: "Whatever the dangers of radicalisation in the UK, they apply just as much to the right as to the left and to Islamism."

I believe that Jon Benjamin should resign. He is talking nonsense.

AP, if you wanna be the Nazis' useful idiot, don't let anyone stop you.

tsam,

What % of EDL members are Nazis?

Are you suggesting that those who were from The EDL at the Ahava gig are Nazis?
If so, perhaps you can name them.

All of them, AP, all of them.

AP, especially the ones who give the Nazi salute

And the ones who say:

A friend of mine went with a dozen of his mates … the EDL battered f*ck out of The Ethnics. He said he never saw any ethnics with the EDL and him and the 2 or 3 thousand there couldn’t give a f*ck about Israel or Zionism and all they care about is beating up ethnics and Muslims in particular.

And

F*ck all those who shout Zionist sympathisers and all the rest of it. For the vast majority it just isn’t about this…..it’s about making a stand against an aggressive invader who has seriously abused the indigenous people of these Isles.

So when's Jonathan and the apologists going to apologise

In a democracy, everyone is entitled to gather outside Ahava on a Saturday afternoon; this, of course, includes my 87 yrs mother and The EDL. It is one of the freedoms that we have in The UK. Of course, you might not believe in this freedom. But people have fought The Nazis to secure it. Under the law of this country, The EDL are quite entitled to oppose the boycott of Ahava products. Quite appalling, I know, but that is how it is.

Now you might beleive that this law should be changed. If you do, I suggest that you write to your MP.

You are absolutely right, AP. We have the freedom to gather outside Ahava, a right the Nazis of the EDL/BNP will take away from us before they beat the cr*p out of us ethnics (because in their eyes we are ethnics too. And Jews, as a rule, must never ever stand with Nazis. Dig?

Now Jonathan Hoffman has absolutely no need to apologize. In fact, he should be applauded for having what it takes to wave the Israeli flag outside Ahava on a Saturday afternoon. And that is one of the unforseen reasons why my father actually fought The Nazis.

Kindoironik?

Indeed, AP, Jews fought and fight the Nazis, not stand with them. Fershteyt?

But I reiterate.. my father fought the Nazis so that British Jews could wave the Israeli flag in public. Do you support that right? Do you admire Jonathan Hoffman for waving the Israeli flag outside Ahava?

And please provide proof that The EDL who go to Ahava are "Nazis". When I was there, I saw no swastikas.

And of course, as far as the anti-zionist Left is concerned, anybody who supports Israel is a "racist" or a "Nazi". So the slurs are not only used against everybody in The EDL. They are also used against anybody who has the temerity to go Tel Aviv on holiday.

And my father fought the Nazis, in North Africa and Italy (Monte Casino), so that Jews wouldn't have to put up with them. He also joined the 43s to fight the post-war Nazis.
I kind of get the feeling that your father fought the Nazis because that is what british men of a certain age did. There was no Israeli flag in 1939-1945, so he wasn't fighting for the right to wave it in public or not.
JH is doing what he is doing for JH. He can also demonstrate when the EDL/BNP aren't there. Or ask for separate pens. Or dissociate himself and the organisation he has tarnised, the ZF, from these thugs. He has done none of this. You'd best ask him why. I'd admire him if he had the cajones to admit that standing with the EDL/BNP was a mistake and that he now dissociated himself from them.
So there were no swastikas, but there were right-hand salutes.

When I was at Ahava, I saw no right hand salutes.

But I reiterate according to Tony Greenstein anybody who goes on holiday to Israel is a "racist" or a "Nazi". So the epithet extends far beyond The EDL. It would include the vast majority of British Jewry. The EDL are actually irrelevant. My 87yrs mother and my 17 yrs old daughter are also "Nazis". In fact, I belong to a family of
"Nazis".

You saw no swastikas? therefore these people are acceptable???? Nonsense....

If any Jew believes that the EDL/BNP rhetoric is anything more than a short-sighted effort to recruit Jews in some vague attempt to legitimise their islamophobia then they are a naive fool.

Remember the 43, remember who they fought in the streets to prevent a post-war resurgence of fascism in the UK. Nobody on the left is denying the dangers of Islamofascism but it is absolutely no reason to jump into bed with those who would otherwise despise you. In this case the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

Anthony - Nazi's is a loaded term, probably not appliacable to these groups (despite the heil Hitlers and swastikas so often on show, as I'm sure you can find with very research online) the fact is that the BNP/EDL represent a divisive and dangerous outlook on society that should not be supported by any clear headed Jew, irregardless of who they choose to align themselves with.

They may claim to have changed, to even not be racist anymore - This speech by Mr Griffin to the US KKK in 2000 shows how the plan has been laid out and managed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QolIvfQEw
So if you are wondering why you havn't seen the swastikas, this is why - so they can convince people like you that they are 'not nazis..' But remember, as Griffin says in the video - they are 'selling - not selling out their ideas.'

This simple video btw, has their founder posing in full swastika laden garb, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbMk9b9IvB0 not that this is the EDL members at Ahava... But there are many photos online that EDL members have proudly posted of themselves performing Nazi salutes - you just need to look, so don't claim with obstinate naiveity that they are 'not nazis,' go and look it up with a google. Think about it, why would these people be attracted to a party whose popular image is aligned with Nazism, unless they had some sympathy with that ideology... The fact that we are British, not German and that it is 2010 not 1933 does not automatically mean they cannot be Nazi-esque. Just look at the train of lineage - and bear in mind that many of their prominent figures have been involved in the BUF and NF before the BNP or EDL.

The success of the far-right is due to people believing all their bs about security and the resurging desire to scapegoat problems, it's the muslims not the Jews these days ... But either way believing it is pandering to intentionally manufactured fear and hatred. Nothing is less admirable than Jews defending Superemacists, be they Islamic, Jewish, Christian or just dressed up racist football hooligans...

tsam,

You agree that there were no swastikas at Ahava.

Now let's get your answers to two further questions:

(1) What evidence do you have of right hand salutes at Ahava?

(2) Have you ever actually been to an Ahava gig?

Anthony, clearly the EDL at Ahava have been briefed not to salute in public, especially when alongside Jews...

That does not mean that they don't have extremist sympathies, it just means they are not so stupid to show it in public...

Communists nowadays don't wear five pointed red stars on their shirts...

Anarchists dont carry around banners with a circled A on them on a day to day basis....

Modern Nazi's dont generally goose step and Sig Heil down the street... Doing a Nazi salute does not make you a Nazi (although it confirms it,) it's what you believe.... And what they believe is quite clearly wrong - it should be be defended on any level.

of course I meant 'should not' when I wrote 'should' just before... It should not be defended!

oops

Leigh-Ellis and tsam,

As I said, whether The EDL are Nazis is irrelevant to this debate; it is a shmalz herring.

According to Tony Greenstein, my mother (87yrs) is a "Nazi". And so is my daughter. And so is my son. And so am I.

The Posners will just have to bear the opprobrium. We are all "Nazis" now. We will buy jack boots etc.

We have all been on holiday to Israel. We liked The Cinema Hotel in Tel Aviv. We went to Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. And yes, we all came back.... "Nazis".

Is this a private party or can anyone play ?

British Jewry isent threatened by anything, except maybe by the inner damage Judaism is suffering generally from the replacement of the worship of god with the idolatrous worship of The State of Israel. As I seem to recall pointing out elsewhere when the regulars down at the dog and duck have had a few drinks and the racist chit starts to come out jews dont even rate a mention.

What a tizz we seem to be getting into.Racism traditionally has been a " right wing " desease. Like the Nazis were hardly a bunch of chartists were they ?

The " left wing " has traditionally been of a more inclusive bent.

But the left wing is most vociferously anti what the Israel has become. And the right wing are " friends of israel ".

But Israel = jews is said to be a true identity statement . What a mess .

The only way British jews are going to work their way out of this is to recognise the obvious ie Israel = jews
is a false identity statement and focus on being British and being Jewish. Be true to Judaism and focus on living and working to make Britain the best place it can be where minorities ( of which you are one and muslims another ) are just part of the rich tapestry.

" The right " are not your friends you only think so because they come over as being more pro what Israel has become than " the left " and Isreal = jews right? They are just using you for reasons of their own and you are useful because you have issues with the muslims , again all about The State of Israel rather than jews.The British right will eventually tire of harassing muslims and blacks and jews will come back into the scapegoat frame again.

Wake up for goodness sake

You now say the EDL are irrelevent, but you began the debate by asking a question involving them, to which I gave my opinion....

Your holiday in Israel is far more irrelevent to this debate - Greensteins usage of the term is clearly a slur, warped and misaligned, but description of the BNP/EDl contingent as Nazi's is clearly based on provable associations. Your instinct to big up what TG called you does not prove anything, in fact it just goes to show how ridiculous his description is.

You can call yourself whatver you choose, my girlfriend is in Israel at the moment, but if anybody tried to call her a Nazi for that they would be proved wrong in a matter of seconds by a little bit of rational argument... Ie, by comparing her points of view to those of actual EDL/BNP/Nazi ideals and looking at the vast gulf in between the two.

I don't understand why you are so keen to believe that the EDL are less dangerous than Islamofascists, does it matter who is 'more' dangerous, the fact is they're all dangerous misguided nutters... We don't have to side with one alongside the other - It is only the EDL and BNP who are asking us to do so... And given the lessons of history we should be doing all we can to stop the growth of the BNP's so called 'Jewish Division,' and thwart their opportunistic advances.

Leigh-Ellis,

If main-stream political parties (Lib/Cons and Labour) took the threats posed by the Islamists much more seriously, then The EDL and BNP would become increasingly irrelevant. My view is that they are filling a vacuum.

As things stand at the present, I believe that the anti-zionists Left and Islamists are more anti-semitic and much more dangerous than the EDL/BNP.

When I once went to Ahava, I did not ask any of the participants whether they were Nazis. Of course, they might have been but I have no proof either way.

As I said, according to the anti-zionist Left and the Islamists, I am a Nazi and so are my children (although my daughter prefers Barcelona to Israel). But as with most things in life, we will get over it.

But according to the 'pro-zionist' Right as we must look at it in this context, you are a Jew... And their grace with that isn't going to last forever... Likewise, the ill-educated members of the left may view you as a 'nazi,' but the real Islamofascists view you as a Jew, in just as negative a light.... That is it...

This is why we should not be allying ourselves with one of these groups against the other.

The BNP do fill a vacuum but it is a vacuum of economic deprivation and social anxieties... Those are the issues we need to deal with, Hitler would not have come to power had it not been for the huge economic problems of the time. People in high voting BNP areas are not worried about the threat of terror, they are worried about immigrants taking up housing and jobs... Just look at the areas where the BNP has achieved success, they are areas of social and economic deprivation where the party can expolit residents anxieties and tie them in to their own grand myth of reality. Opposing terror could be seen as more just in a way, and this is why the EDL have taken that route - of course it is still curried and maintained by general uneducated xenophobia.

I think the current and last government have taken the threat of fundamentalism pretty seriously... To compromise our own values in the process would be absurd, hence the redaction of detention without trial for 90 days and the outrage against American 'rendition' processes.

Just because some elements of the left are obviously irrational and anti-semitic it is no reason to run into the arms of the Right. Don't believe the mythmakers on either side.

It is ever so slightly disingenuous to claim that if you, your mother, sister etc stand with the EDL/BNP then we consider you Nazis. If you were members, which you claim not to be, then you aren't Nazis, and no one was suggesting you were.

Also, in answer to your earlier question, yes I have watched an Ahava demo. Watched it from the next-door pub. And yes there were straight-armed salutes and one of them was given right next to Jonathan, who didn't flinch.

Leigh-Ellis,

At the heart of the UK government is a political party (Lib Dems) which seems to believe that Israel, rather than the Islamists, is the problem. Most of the Foreign Office concurs, as does William Hague.

I am not rushing into the arms of The EDL or The BNP. But there are more insidious threats operating in British society... the censorship of Prof Alderman is an example.

Now if an EDL member rocks up at Ahava, he/she is entitled, under our democracy, to be there. And Jonathan Hoffman is under no obligation whatsoever to keep his distance or to tell the EDL member to get lost. We live in a democrcy and The EDL, just like the extreme anti-zionists, are free to be there whether one likes them or not.

Jonathan Hoffman has behaved quite properly; he does not have to justify his actions/inactions to anybody.

Hoffman had little to do with my posts, neither did Ahava. That debate has been going on for weeks and quite frankly, as everybody is so entrenched in their positions - the whole thing has become a little ridiculous.

I was referring to the BNP drive to incorporate Jews as part of their party. And I thought your original post suggested that we were expected to believe that the anti-semitic right was somehow more admirable than those on the left, which is completely absurd.

The Lib Dems are hardly at the heart of UK government, they have 50 or so MP's all whom have been whipped so thoroughly to follow the Conservative line that our education, welfare and community networks will soon be in tatters. I don't think the small proportion of Lib Dems who vocally oppose Israel (remember there is too a LD friends of Israel group) will overthrow the working relationships between the UK and Israel. The Tory's dont actually despise Israel despite what Hague may say or Cameron may imply on visits to Turkey, they have far too much to lose at the moment if they did choose to 'come out' as anti-Israel....

The Government have not said that 'Israel is the problem,' as you put it, but they do recognise that the solution requires Israeli concessions, an unfortunate truth, but in this world it will be the only way that a viable peace process in the middle east can move forward. Not to say that the Palestinians will have to change too, But it is the stubbornness on both sides that is the real problem.

Btw I didn't mean to imply that you personally were supportive of the BNP, just that there seems to be a worrying sense of empathy with them from some small elements of the Jewish community... I am worried that simply painting the Islamist Left as worse will drive more Jews towards EDL sympathies.

tsam,

I reiterate.. when I went to Ahava, everybody was well behaved. But there were a lot of police which probably helped to keep things in order.

Of course, you can make allegations about Nazi salutes. All I can say, is that I didn't see any.

I reiterate.. nobody can stop The EDL from attending Ahava. Their members have democratic rights: they are entitled to be there. As far as I am concerned, only fascists would, ironically enough, stop them from standing quietly outside a shop in Covent Garden.

AP, Arsene Wenger never sees fouls committed by his players. That doesn't mean they didn't happen. And if the EDL/BNP are at the demos, Jews musn't stand with them.

I don't mind Jews standing next to the EDL in order to debate the merits and pitfalls of EDL ideology with them.

Leigh-Ellis,

The BNP and EDL are quite within their rights to try and get Jewish members. Jews must make up their own minds.

I reiterate that the anti-zionist Left in collusion with the Islamists pose a greater threat to UK Jewry (especially those who are not praying for Israel's destruction) than the EDL and BNP. Of course, I am not totally naive, and I recognize that anti-semites lurk within these parties. But they also lurk within The Lib Dems and I am not sure that such people don't actually pose a more insidious and serious threat to our liberties, particularly since they are now at the heart of govt.