International pressure upon Israel is rising as peace talks approach


By ibrows
August 30, 2010
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As i have noted on these pages previously, Israel has got itself into a difficult position, it will not accept a one-state solution, for fear that Palestinians high birth rates would undermine its desired notion of Israel as an exclusively 'Jewish' state. Furthermore, accepting a two-state solution would require Israel to withdraw from illegal settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories, again, Israel would find it difficult to give up this territory it has illegally seized and sought to annex into its borders.

So, the solution is either to withdraw from settlements to the legal pre-1967 borders, or if you favour a peaceful one-state solution Israel must accept it cannot continue as a 'Jewish state' and must uphold the rights of its all population regardless of religion or ethnicity.

If in the coming so-called 'peace talks', Israel refuses to accept either option, and continues slowly expelling Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, and altering facts on the ground, the state of Israel cannot protest if international condemnation increases. The tide is slowly turning, the world will no longer accept Israel's colonisation and occupation of the Palestinian territories and the creation of Jewish settlements on this occupied land.

Many Israeli's have refused to perform in the settlements of Ariel, as they claim this would amount to 'legitimizing' the occupation and illegal settlement. Likewise, The Norwegian Government Pension Fund Global (GPFG) announced divestment from two Israeli companies, Africa Israel Investments and Danya Cebus, due to their involvement in the construction of illegal settlements in the West Bank. This comes only a year after the GPFG divested from Elbit Systems Ltd., the Israeli defense firm involved in the construction of the Separation Wall.

Harvard Management Company, which manages the university’s endowment, has also divested the fund from all investments it had in Israel companies, during the second quarter of this year. The divested stocks include TEVA, a generic drug manufacturer, that has greatly benefited from Israel’s strangulation of several Palestinian pharmaceutical companies, Checkpoint Securities, which provided many of the technologies Israel uses humiliate, screen, and search Palestinians at road blocks, and Cellcom, a wireless communications company that provide communication services to the army, among others.

In Dec 2009, The Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) issued voluntary guidance to UK supermarkets stating labels should differentiate between "Israeli settlement produce" and "Palestinian produce".

Israel must end the occupation of the Palestinians teritories or get used to facing this rising international isolation and condemnation for the crimes it continues to commit in the Palestinian occupied territories.

COMMENTS

richmillett

Mon, 08/30/2010 - 23:06

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2 points

No withdrawals required. A one-for-one land swap will take place leading to two separate states.


happygoldfish

Mon, 08/30/2010 - 23:44

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ibrows, your statement is totally untrue (surprise! )

ibrows: Harvard Management Company, which manages the university’s endowment, has also divested the fund from all investments it had in Israel companies, during the second quarter of this year.

harvard retains many israeli investments, and will probably be increasing them

far from "putting pressure on israel", harvard has actually publicly committed itself not to divest from or boycott israel … from http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/08/statement-on-sec-2010-seco...

The Harvard Management Company’s most recent filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission details changes in holdings, as is routine, but no change in policy.
The University has not divested from Israel. Israel was moved from the MSCI, Harvard’s benchmark in emerging markets, to the EAFE index in May due to its successful growth. Harvard’s emerging-markets holdings were rebalanced accordingly.
Harvard continues to have holdings in developed markets, including Israel, through outside managers in commingled accounts and indexes, which are not reported in the filing in question.

and from http://spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=7103

Statement of Professor Alan Dershowitz regarding Harvard's Sale of Israeli Stocks

I have been advised by Harvard that the decision of The Harvard's Management Company to sell stocks in Israeli companies reflected the good news that Israel is no longer considered an "emerging" economy, but has been promoted to the status of a "developed" economy. As a result of this promotion, the Harvard Management Company could no longer hold Israeli stocks in its "emerging" nation's portfolio. I am told that Harvard continues to hold Israeli stocks in its "developed" nation's portfolio. The end result may well be that Harvard will have greater rather than lesser holdings of Israeli stocks. No one should misinterpret this purely economic decision as support for any form of divestment against Israel. Indeed, Harvard has publicly committed itself not to divest from Israel and not to participate in any campaign of boycotting the Jewish nation.

SPME is pleased to learn that false statements about Harvard's supposed 'divestment' are nothing more than another example of the misinformation which has too frequently clouded this issue. It is especially ironic that this misinformation has stolen public attention from the real story here, which is the recent technology-driven success of the State of Israel.


ibrows

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 08:17

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Rich

why should the occupying power - Israel dictate the land it wishes to keep and Palestinians have to accept little bits of isolated and disconnected strips of land? This is not a peace deal, it would merely be enabling the occupation to continue and the domination of the Palestinians land to be legitimised.

Can you point to another example in history where the occupier has keep land of the occupied population and traded little crap bits of land with it, in order to justify the occupation and land grab? Its nonsense, Israel should not be dictating the land swap terms and conditions.

Happygoldfish
You can dismiss this, but certainly more international companies are opposed to the illegal Israeli settlements, plus citing Dershowitz is a poor defence, he's totally biased and so pro-Israel his books continue to claim Israel has never committed a crime towards the Palestinians, hes a total joke, who only sees what fits in with his biased opinions and ignores all the other masses of evidence.


richmillett

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 09:05

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ibrows - Israel isn't dictating anything. This is all open to negotiation. I'm just saying that a land swap is how the settlements will likely be treated as part of an overall peace settlement.


happygoldfish

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 09:59

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2 points

ibrows, first you make a totally untrue statement about harvard university divesting from israel, then you completely ignore harvard's own statement to the contrary
why do some people think that repeating lies doesn't matter, so long as they're about israel?


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 10:25

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Rich, that's slightly incorrect. Israel is dictating that the Palestinians recognise it as the Jewish state or the state of the Jewish people, that any Palestinian state be demilitarised and that it be responsible for israel's security.
And a land swap implies the kahanist transfer of israel's Arabs to the Palestinian state as advocated by the far right.


Advis3r

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 14:02

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2 points

More obfuscation and outright lies from the trolls.

Israel was founded as a Jewish State read its Declaration of Independence - all Israel is doing is (in return for an Arab state which will be judenrein) require that the Arabs recognise that fact and not continue its indoctrination of its population from school age and upwards that the Jews are to be thrown into the sea and no State of Israel exists.
Secondly Israel will not tolerate or accept a militerized Arab State in Judea and Samaria which would in all probablity be militarily armed equipped and trained by Iran in the same way as Lebanon and Gaza is today. Just look at the distance from Kalkilya to Ben Gurion Airport to see why.
A land swap would mean that due to boundary changes Arabs today living within the State of Israel would be living in any new Arab State and Jews living in what might otherwise become part of any new Arab State would be living in Israel - there will be no physical population transfer.


Advis3r

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 14:32

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In response to ibrows fulminations against Israel it is true that Israel’s left pushes the two state solution but that is in the misguided belief that Palestinians high birth rates would undermine Israel's desired notion of Israel as a'Jewish' state but not to the exclusion of any other race or religion as ibrow would have you believe. Accepting a two-state solution would require Israel to withdraw from legal settlements in Judea and Samaria which were granted to the Jews by the Mandate for Palestine in 1922.
So, the solution is one-state solution. 67% of the population of the land designated by the mandate as part of the Jewish Homeland (which excluded Gaza) and which Israel now controls is Jewish it therefore may comfortably continue as a 'Jewish state' and would in accordance with its founding declaration uphold the rights of its all its population regardless of religion or ethnicity as it has hitherto done.
Israel, contrary to the assertion made above is not expelling Palestinians from their homes. Arabs living in the eastern suburbs of Jerusalem as do recalcitrant tenants in the UK face eviction if they fail to pay rent to their landlords.
Only 53 Israelis have refused to perform in the settlement of Ariel, as they fallaciously claim this would amount to 'legitimizing' the occupation and illegal settlement. Since Israel’s occupation of the Disputed Territories in the absence of any peace agreement is perfectly legal and since the land was mandated to the Jews in 1922 settlement thereof by Jews can hardly be illegal.
Harvard Management Company, which manages the university’s endowment fund, has not divested the fund from all investments it had in Israel companies, during the second quarter of this year. the decision was made because israel being as successfulk as it is does not come within the definition of an emerging nation and therefore shares held in israeli companies in that fund were sold. TEVA, has not benefited from any “strangulation” of any Palestinian pharmaceutical companies and to say otherwise is a libel which the JC should seriously consider taking down. I have sent a copy of the ibrows entry to Teva and await their comments.
Israel has long been aware of the fact that the British polity has been taken over by those whose interests are inimical to those of the State of Israel - in many cases this is due to fear of deselection etc. My advice to all those Jews in the UK is to make Aliya and soon.
Israel will end the “occupation” when the Arabs sign a comprehensive and fair peace agreement which inter alia recognises Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State. Jews are used to facing isolation and condemnation for crimes they have never committed. We are still here our accusers fill the dustbins of history.


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 14:51

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-1 points

More obfuscation and economy with the truth from someone who is probably Danny ayalon's adviser. Israel is making it a precondition that the Palestinians recognise israel's official religion. This was not demanded of Egypt or Jordan or any other country with ties with israel. It's being placed as a stumbling block because Netanyahu really doesn't want to face the prospect of doing a deal. It would cost him his coalition and might cost him his life. There are plenty more yigal amirs. Transferral of towns, villages and cities is transfer and is designed to rid israel of its non-Jews. It's a sick idea from the minds of the racist fascist yisrael beiteinu party, most of whose voters are only there because of the promise of an immigration package.
Tra


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 14:56

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Thank god for the 53 tzaddikim, plus those who have joined them. They might just be the saving of israel. Like them, I too boycott settlements but make sure I make up for it by buying anything I can from israel proper.


clevenson (not verified)

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 15:27

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The only solution long term will be a one state one. One man one one vote.
Until such a time Israel cannot claim to be a democracy.


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 15:33

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2 points

clevenson

How many dead Israelis are you willing to see to impose "one state"?


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 15:45

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A good question Jonathan. To which one might add: how many Israelis are the settlers and their supporters abroad willing to see die to maintain Israeli control over the occupied territories?


Advis3r

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 16:15

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telegramsam - more nonsense - Unfortunately not being able to handle the truth you descend to name-calling. Israel is asking (no rightfully demanding) that the Arabs recognise that israel belongs to the Jewish Nation and that it has a legitimate claim to self determination in its ancient homeland something you obviously cannot accept perhaps you will tell us why instead of writing nonsense about the Arabs accepting the Jewish religion.I think the nutjobs from Nuteirei Karta have already proved that they do. Egypt and Jordan already accept that israel is a Jewish State as set out in the peace treaties.For example Article 9 paragraph 3 of the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan states The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace.
Your nonsense about transferral of towns etc is just that. The idea being floated is that in exchange for Israel keeping the large settlement blocs land of similar size will be transferred to a future Arab State where it is contiguous with land which is to belong to such Arab State. what you are suggesting is not what is proposed and you are lying if you say it is.Yisroel beiteinu is no more fascist than the British Labour Party I suggest you read the last Labour Party manifesto on immigration. Quote:We are taking extensive action to strengthen our borders. We have more than doubled the number of immigration officers at the border, set up a new single border force with new powers to guard our ports and airports, 100 per cent of visas are now biometric, enabling us to crack down on immigration offenders, and we are rolling out ID cards for foreign nationals, with 170,000 already issued. We are bringing in electronic border controls to count people in and out of the country – over 95 per cent by the end of 2010 – and enforcement of Britain’s border controls now starts overseas with British border staff based on the continent stopping suspect travellers before they travel, and fingerprint checks before visas are issued." Even israel does not do the latter allowing Sudanese refugees temporary residency rights.

clevenson - Israel already recognises one man one vote any Arab citizen of Israel living in Israel has as much right to vote as I do. Since Israel has not annexed Judea and Samaria no Arab living there has a right to Israeli citizenship except under certain conditions.
As to your riposte to Jonathan Hoffman unlike the British who are falling over themselves in their rush to give up all their liberties to appease the islamists having learned from the past the Jews will albeit reluctantly choose to fight to maintain our independence - we have no other choice.


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 16:21

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No one might not add that, T-scum. It is a non-sequitur and you are simply trolling.


ibrows

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 17:08

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Advis3r

The Palestinians will not currently 'recognise Israel' as this would amount to an acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian territories and Israel's attempts to illegally redraw the borders and annex territory.

You claim: 'The idea being floated is that in exchange for Israel keeping the large settlement blocs land of similar size will be transferred to a future Arab State where it is contiguous with land which is to belong to such Arab State'.

But why should Palestinians accept Israel keeping its illegal settlements in the middle of Palestinian territory? And be given small disconnected strips of land as compensation, this is a joke.

If Britain occupied Israel, and built colonies in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and said, don't worry we will keep this land, but we will give you a bit of land in Barnet, and a little bit in scarborough, and a small part of Swindon would Israel accept this as a reasonable and fair outcome, or would it call for the occupation to totally end and the land be returned to its rightful owners?

What Israel desires as an occupier, is this land swap, on its terms to enable the illegal land occupation to be legitimised, the Palestinians will never accept this, and never has another occupied territory throughout history accepted the continuation of the occupier keeping the land that is rightfully theirs


richmillett

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 17:14

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2 points

telegramsam - as you well know this conflict has nothing to do with the settlements but all to do with Israel's existence.

clevenson - there is already one man one vote in Israel, so no need to worry about its democratic credentials.


ibrows

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 17:18

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-1 points

richmillett

So if its not about the settlements, then why the need for the land swap, Israel can simply withdraw from its settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory.


richmillett

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 17:19

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ibrows - any landswap will be contiguous and on the basis of one-to-one so stop complaining. I am sure that the Palestinians have top negotiators so again stop worrying already.


ibrows

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 17:20

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-1 points

its totally about the settlements, Israel wants a peace deal that legitimises and justifies its illegal land annexation and settlements in Palestinian territory


richmillett

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 17:22

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If Israel "simply withdraws", how long before the first plane is shot out of Israeli skies? Let the negotiators negotiate in the upcoming direct talks. It all has nothing to do with you or I.


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 18:09

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Adviser, if you are going to make analogies, yisrael beiteinu is closer to the BNP than any other UK party. You can write what you like -- and no wonder hasbara is being dismissed as a sick joke -- but no other country has been asked to recognise israel's state religion. And the transfer of israel's Arabs lock, stock and all their towns and villages is just that -- a kahanist-lite transfer. If you settlers want to help israel, go and live in the Negev or galil.


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 18:11

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-1 points

Moderators, why is Jonathan allowed to get away with such abuse? Is it because of his exalted position, which he will soon vacate?


Joshua18

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 18:40

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"Is it because of his exalted position"

Speaking of course from your position as a dog in a kennel.


Joshua18

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 18:44

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"If Britain occupied Israel"

Britain is occupying Argentina. Britain is occupying Spain. Britain is occupying Ireland. Britain is occupying Afghanistan. Until recently, she was also occupying Iraq. She has been engaged in various wars in recent years that have killed countless thousands of innocents. She was responsible for an evil empire that continues to wreak havoc around the world. She collaborated in the Holocaust. She turned her back as genocide was committed in Rwanda.

We Jews need no lessons from the gentiles of Britain.


Advis3r

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 19:41

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0 points

Tghis evening four Jews one a pregnant woman murdered in Arab terror attack near Hevron - as soon as Israel puts out a hand to the Arabs this is what it gets in return. The Palestinians main requirement under the road map was to dismantle terrorist groups if they cannot be trusted to do that what can they be trusted to do.
ibrows the Arabs rejected partition in 1947 they initiated three wars which they lost so why should Israel which fought three DEFENSIVE wars give up any territory - it has always been the case that the victor dictates the terms for peace not the other way around. The Germans gave up territory after WWII since as well as losing land it had gained during the war Germany also lost territory to the east. (Most of the land east of the Oder-Neisse went to Poland. The remainder Königsberg went to Russia). The Arabs should expect likewise.
This is what israel Beyteinu stands for please signify which policy is allied with that of the BNP
A belief that the “land for peace approach” is fundamentally flawed – only a “land for land – peace for peace” approach, in which both parties compromise and commit to certain terms, can succeed
The exchange of land highly populated by Arabs for land with Jewish settlements as a viable proposal for solving the Israel-Palestinian conflict
The complete cutting of ties with Gaza and its separation from the West Bank
The desire to see the introduction of a new citizenship law that would require citizens to affirm their loyalty to the State and readiness to serve in the army or in the National Service in order to be eligible for any state benefits
The Maintenance of the Jewish character of the State as a balance of tradition, Zionism, modernity and tolerance as a political and educational imperative
The easing of the conversion process for those who wish to join the Jewish people
The adoption of the Norwegian Law, which would require Cabinet Ministers to give up their Knesset seat in order to reduce the role of partisan politics when deciding policy
More funding for education, more training and higher salaries for teachers, and a tougher response to violence in the schools
More funding for healthcare
Increasing the police force so that it can reduce crime effectively
Stiffer penalties for moving violations and more traffic police to enforce the law
The clean-up of our sites of natural beauty and the passing of legislation for energy conservation
The desire to see Israel join the European Union and Nato
Obviously there is no correlation with the BNP just leftist scaremongering because these proposals are eminently fair and reasonable and do not call for abject surrender by Israel.


Advis3r

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 19:53

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ibrows - i have demonstarted that "Israel wants a peace deal that legitimises and justifies its illegal land annexation and settlements in Palestinian territory" is a total fallacy but like the bad Dr Goebbels you will persist in your lies hoping that they become the truth. Unfortunately for you we are not in the same perilous position as our brothers and sisters were in pre-War Germany and your lies will be exposed every time. There is no such thing as Palestinian Territory -Judea and Samaria contain land which the Palestinians want for a future state - there never was a Palestinian State and the nation which calls itself Palestinian is a recent invention - hence even after 1964 when the arch terrorist Arafat formed the PLO UN Resolution 242 makes no mention of a people called "Palestinian" which presumably it would have done when it deals with the territory Israel liberated in the Six Day War.


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 19:56

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"Israel must end the occupation of the Palestinians teritories or get used to facing this rising international isolation and condemnation for the crimes it continues to commit in the Palestinian occupied territories."

Yeah right - "Israel you are accused of providing four sitting duck targets - one of whom was pregnant - for murderous fundamentalist Islamist terrorists."

Bring it on Ibrows - is any other country not allowed to seek security for its citizens or is it only Israel?

Ibrows does your name derive from the absence of anything in your head above the level of your eyebrows?


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 20:51

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-1 points

Moderators Jonathan is still at it. Why is this allowed?


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 21:55

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1 point

What a joke, T-Spam. You dish out the ad hominems and thread diversions ad nauseam and then you whine when someone advocates for Israel.

Is it true that you work for UJIA?


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 22:09

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-2 points

Moderators, as you can see Jonathan is continuing to play his silly word games with names. Says it all really.


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 22:12

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Moderators, as you can see Jonathan is continuing to play his silly word games with names. Says it all really.


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 22:38

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If you can't win an argument, censor your opponent - how typical of the Guardianistas


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 22:50

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Guardianista? No I'm strictly a Times, Wall Street Journal and Sun/NoW man. Can't you get anything right?


telegramsam

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 22:50

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Guardianista? No I'm strictly a Times, Wall Street Journal and Sun/NoW man. Can't you get anything right?


DLeigh-Ellis

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 22:51

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mmmmm, indeed Jonathan...


Jonathan Hoffman

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 23:05

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Don't feed the trolls ......


DLeigh-Ellis

Tue, 08/31/2010 - 23:28

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-2 points

Next time i'm hanging out under a bridge, I'll be sure to hold on to my sandwiches.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:18

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-2 points

Moderators why is Jonathan allowed to get away with abuse?


Jonathan Hoffman

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:24

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How come you don't post in your real name T-Spam - what have you got to hide?


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:25

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A brief outline of the policies of Yisrael Beytenu:-

1.A belief that the “land for peace approach” is fundamentally flawed – only a “land for land – peace for peace” approach, in which both parties compromise and commit to certain terms, can succeed

2.The exchange of land highly populated by Arabs for land with Jewish settlements as a viable proposal for solving the Israel-Palestinian conflict

3.The complete cutting of ties with Gaza and its separation from the West Bank

4. The desire to see the introduction of a new citizenship law that would require citizens to affirm their loyalty to the State and readiness to serve in the army or in the National Service in order to be eligible for any state benefits

5.The Maintenance of the Jewish character of the State as a balance of tradition, Zionism, modernity and tolerance as a political and educational imperative

6.The easing of the conversion process for those who wish to join the Jewish people

7.The adoption of the Norwegian Law, which would require Cabinet Ministers to give up their Knesset seat in order to reduce the role of partisan politics when deciding policy

8.More funding for education, more training and higher salaries for teachers, and a tougher response to violence in the schools

9.More funding for healthcare

10. Increasing the police force so that it can reduce crime effectively

11.Stiffer penalties for moving violations and more traffic police to enforce the law

12.The clean-up of our sites of natural beauty and the passing of legislation for energy conservation

13.The desire to see Israel join the European Union and Nato

DLeigh-Ellis,Telegramsham,ibrows, clevenson and any other Guardian reading, left-wing, anti-Israel, Jew hater, where is the BNP conection in the above list of Yisrael Beytenu policies?


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:31

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2 points

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139426

On the eve of "negotiations", where is the outpouring of remorse from Abbas and the "so-called" Palestinian Authority for the murder of four innocent Jewish lives?

DLeigh-Ellis,Telegramsham,ibrows, clevenson and any other Guardian reading, left-wing, anti-Israel, Jew hater reading these posts, have a look at the above link - and tell us that you still expect Israel to "negotiate" with these murderers.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:36

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-1 points

Yisrael beiteinu is israel's BNP. And of you are going to quote someone jic, why not one less biased than the settlers' own news service, israel nationalist radio.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:37

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-1 points

Moderators, why do you allow the far right, jonathan and jic, to be abusive here?


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:39

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1 point

telegramsham

Of the above 13.Principles of Yisrael Beytenu's poicy statements which ones relate the BNP?

Or have you not read them?

BTW the news of the murder of 4 innocent Israeli civilians has been widely reported, even the Guardian!


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:42

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telegramsham

i am not "far right", as you put it, I am simply a Jew, who supports the "right", (perhaps that is the "far right bit!) of Jews to live in Peace and Security in the State Of Israel.


Jon_i_Cohen

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 08:44

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telegramsham

Have you read the 13.Principles outlined above?
Which one relates to the BNP?


telegramsam

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 09:06

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Words are one thing, but actions speak louder than then. There's the loyalty law, the policy of trying to remove israel's non-Jews ( except those from the former ussr who are yisrael beiteinu's voters), the enhanced discrimination etc etc.


telegramsam

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 09:09

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Moderators have you noticed that when the far right have nothing to say they become abusive?


DLeigh-Ellis

Wed, 09/01/2010 - 09:15

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Jon, when did I mention the BNP... I was talking about bridges....