How bad is Jewish life in Britain?


By Miriam Shaviv
January 14, 2010
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David Bogner, of the uber-blog Treppenwitz, has posted some very blunt impressions of the British Jewish community following his visit to Limmud last month:

[I]t came as a bit of a surprise when I found the tiny UK Jewish community to be absolutely absent from public discourse in support of Israel.  In England, there seems to be a political price to pay for being pro-Israel... and if anything, there seems to be value on the side of those who are critical of Israel....

For the most part, the British Jewish community seems to keep their collective heads down and try to fit in with their countrymen as best they can.  Sadly, in many cases this means trying to be more British than the Brits.  

Not only is there a serious problem with passive anti-Semitism in the UK, but active anti-Semitic attacks seem also to be quite prevalent and on the rise. 

While I was at Limmud I noticed that security was being handled by an organization called CST... When I asked someone about this they explained that CST was the organization that guarded the synagogues all over London (and presumably in other places in the UK)...

I was shocked.  In the US there are occasional hate crimes against JCCs and synagogues... mostly of the spray-painted Swastika sort.  But in England I was seeing a relatively small Jewish community where blanket security was required everywhere that Jews gathered in any numbers.

I was further shocked when I got to London and started wandering around Golders Green...  in literally every Jewish shop, restaurant, bakery, Judaica store, etc. there was a little display on the counter next to the cash register where customers were encouraged to take [a card with the CST's number].

This kind of card could only exist in a community that feels threatened and vulnerable. They may not be in imminent physical danger (although the need for cards such as these suggests otherwise), but you'd have a hard time convincing me that the U.K. Jewish community isn't experiencing a social, emotional and psychological threat.  They are clearly tolerating a great deal of anti-Semitism as they go about their daily lives... trying to act as if everything is fine...

Personally, I think that much of the left-leaning, knee-jerk anti-Israel rhetoric coming from the UK Jewish community today can trace its source as much to British Jewry's need to fit in (i.e. to be more British than the Brits), as to any of Israel's real or imagined misdeeds.  England's Jews seem (to me) to be captives of anti-Semitism ... forced to tolerate an oppressed status without fully acknowledging it to themselves. 

When I left the U.K. I did so with a profound appreciation for the relative freedom I have experienced throughout my life; both in my American youth, and in my Israeli adulthood.  Once one has tasted such freedom, the barest whiff of oppression can't be mistaken for anything else.

A few months ago I wrote a blog post about why British and American Jews understand Jewish life in Britain so differently. American Jews, I wrote, are comparing British Jewish life to an American reality - by which standards, things here are uncomfortable. Brits are comparing it to Jewish life here 20,30,50 years ago - by which standards, things are vastly improved. 

Of-course, life being (possibly) better elsewhere does not make life here “bad”. And while there is, undeniably, a certain level of anxiety in the UK community about the future here, on balance, I think daily life is good here for most Jews. But there’s no point trying to argue that with members of a community coming from such a different experience. At the end of the day, quality of life, including quality of Jewish life, is entirely a subjective matter.

Read the whole thing here.

Clearly, this goes a long way to explaining Treppenwitz's strong reaction to British Jewish life. That said, it seems to me that increasing numbers of people here are uncomfortable with their quality of Jewish life here, and essentially agree with him. In my column this week, I wrote about a dinner party my husband and I held on Sunday for three other couples:

At a certain point during the evening, the conversation turned to the JFS case. The court’s “interference” in this internal Jewish matter, said one guest, had left him depressed. He was also stressed by the deep communal divisions revealed by the case. Though not new, these seemed more intractable than ever. “If I could,” he said, “I would leave this country in a heartbeat.”

To my surprise, the table took him seriously. Every guest confessed that he or she had serious misgivings about bringing up their children here. The JFS case had clearly had a more profound impact on the mood of my friends than I’d realised, undermining the sense of security they had derived from living in this country. But there was also pervasive angst about getting children into Jewish schools, and about the quality of their Jewish education. There was worry about our dwindling numbers, waning political influence and the increasing isolation of Jewish students on campus. A mental weariness, too, attended the increasingly hostile attitude to Israel in public discourse.

While more general concerns, such as the coarseness of British society and a sense that this country had lost its sense of cohesion and national purpose, were voiced as well, the tipping point seemed to be the Jewish issues. “I blamed my parents for bringing me up here,” one guest revealed. “Now, if we don’t move, our children will say the same thing.” [MORE]

What do you think?

COMMENTS

fellman01

14 January, 2010 - 17:22

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Having lived in both the US and the UK it is my belief that the biggest difference between the UK and US Jewish community is the level of lay leadership.

In the US, where the vast majority of the community is affiliated with Reform and Conservative synagogues as well as non-Synagogue institutions, there is a long tradition of confident local and national leadership from the lay community. In the UK the pattern is different. The majority of the community belongs to Orthodox synagogues even if that does not reflect their level of actual religious observance. There are few other opportunities for communal involvement outside of this structure. This, when combined with the rather hollow office of Chief Rabbi, creates a pattern of deference to Rabbinic authority that undermines the development of a strong and confident lay community.

For example, it would have been unimaginable that in almost all of the US Jewish community that the question of who would speak at funerals would be left solely to Rabbinic authorities to control. The CST is a reflection of this tops-down pattern. A security problem that in the US would likely be handled locally here is handled centrally, which in turn increases everyone's sense of fear.

That does not mean that there are not problems in the US Jewish community but they are far more likely to be first tackled locally giving people a stronger sense of control.


Jonathan Hoffman

14 January, 2010 - 18:07

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moshetzarfati2

14 January, 2010 - 18:12

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An English person's dream is to live somewhere else. Why should English Jews be any different? As it stands now, tho, English Jews have nothing to complain about: except for the weather, the food, surly shop assistants, crap rail service, expensive public transport; ASBOS, chavs etc. But, as we say, mustn't grumble. We've still got the best public service broadcaster, newspapers, football and Marks and Spencer and John Lewis.


Jonathan Hoffman

14 January, 2010 - 18:14

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"Brits are comparing it to Jewish life here 20,30,50 years ago - by which standards, things are vastly improved."

30 and 50 years ago Jewish academics and student were not inhbited from openly identifying with Israel and there were not daily meetings in London where Israel was delegitimised and compared in an antisemitic manner to the Nazis or apartheid South Africa. And synagogues and Jewish schools did not have round-the-clock security.

Aliya was a record in 2009 - and there's a reason for that.


moshetzarfati2

14 January, 2010 - 18:16

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Bogner misses the point: English Jews know enough about Israel now to regard it as an embarrassment and not the light unto nations that we had always hoped it could be. Perhaps Bogner should concentrate on the 85% of US Jews who have never visited Israel, yet still their leaders are in thrall of the hasbaraniks.
Perhaps our megaphones could take note too if they can stop taking orders from Yisrael (lo) Beiteinu.


moshetzarfati2

14 January, 2010 - 18:25

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Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is stupid and revisionist. Comparing Israel to apartheid South Africa is a sad reflection of the truth, considering that there are Israeli-only roads in the territories, poorer funding for Arab municipalities in Israel, lack of funding for Arab enterprise (no new Arab town has been built in Israel since 1948) and the possible introduction of racist Loyalty and Residency laws.
In fact, if you do the maths, Israel now controls more disenfranchised non-Jews than enfranchised Jews and non-Jews.
Jewish students in the UK don't have it nearly so bad as some would like (It's the negativity that defines these people). In fact, if they were Asian or black they would probably have been arrested on sus several times.
Yes, aliyah from the UK was at a record. But the numbers are still minuscule and what's the betting that half of them will be back within a year? Also, one has to ask oneself why far more people left Israel last year than emigrated to it. And most of those emigrating are precisely the middle class, educated and taxed people Israel needs to maintain its over burdened welfare payouts to the least productive parts of society.


Jonathan Hoffman

14 January, 2010 - 18:26

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left-leaning, knee-jerk anti-Israel rhetoric coming from the UK Jewish community today

if anything, there seems to be value on the side of those who are critical of Israel

If Bogner needs proof he can look above me in this thread


moshetzarfati2

14 January, 2010 - 18:28

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Hoffman, what I wrote, I wrote more out of sadness than glee. I get the feeling, however, that you are never happier than when Israel is being vilified. It kind of makes your life worth living. Sadly.


Jonathan Hoffman

14 January, 2010 - 19:38

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What a fool you are


moshetzarfati2

14 January, 2010 - 20:26

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The only fool here is he who would hate it if the vilification of Israel ended tomorrow.


tomeisner2

14 January, 2010 - 20:26

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Dear Jonathan,
Have you been to the Palestinian territories on the West Bank in the last 3 years and seen with your own eyes what every day life is like for the Palestinians? Do you have any Palestinian friends?
Would you consider going there just for fact finding purposes?


Jonathan Hoffman

14 January, 2010 - 20:32

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No and yes.

The argument that one has to have been to a place to have a view on the issues is fallacious. It entirely dismisses media reports.

I have never been to China but I have informed views about China. There are no doubt places yo have not visited but that does not stop you having an informed view.


moshetzarfati2

14 January, 2010 - 20:33

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Tom, pardon me, but that's a dumb set of questions for someone who appears to be reading from the hymn sheet and Talking Points memo put out by the Yisrael (lo) Beiteinu-run Israeli Foreign Ministry.


tomeisner2

14 January, 2010 - 20:44

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No I disagree because if you are a decent human being by seeing with your own eyes what the Palestinians have to go through on a daily basis just because they were born Palestinian and not Jewish would end your blind support of Israel


gordon bennett

14 January, 2010 - 21:37

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Mr Hoffman, I have no doubt you have an informed view about China and various other places you haven't been to. However, your argument is fallacious since you speak, write and blog etc on Israel and the occupied territories, so it behoves you to have met Palestinians not through Israeli middle-men/women.


tomeisner2

14 January, 2010 - 22:09

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Come on Jonathan and others go for it. Book a ticket and and see for yourself who the Palestinians really are. I did this 2 years ago and met wonderful highly intelligent welcoming people Probably one of the best experiences of my life!.


treppenwitz

15 January, 2010 - 05:16

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Tom and Gordon... Not only have you given sterling examples of the foolishness that UK Jews must endure on a daily basis, but Tom in particular has shown a bit about his own ignorance.

I live and travel through the areas you mistakenly call the Palestinian territories. You are correct that the typical Palestinian Arab is going to be under considerably more security scrutiny than I am for the simple reason that for many years Palestinian Arabs gleefully killed and maimed Israelis... not the other way around. As that gastly hobby has subsided, so have most of the security restrictions on them. Most. Not all. I was here before the Intifada and I can tell you from personal experience that Arabs moved freely, un-harassed by checkpoints, back then. They were much better off economically too since Jews came to their shops and employed them in higher numbers . In short, much of the responsibility for the present plight of the Palestinians must rest with their leaders and the minority of their population that engages in terror (and to a lesser extent with the majority of their population that refuses to condemn terror... thus passively supporting it).

Of course, if you view terror as a legitimate form of resistance, then we have nothing to talk about.


moshetzarfati2

15 January, 2010 - 09:44

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treppenwitz, In other words, you are a West Bank settler who has benefited from Israeli state largesse both economically and in security matters. You probably travel on Israeli-only roads, you receive huge privileges when it comes to land and water distribution, yet you are a minority within the area, the occupied territories, in which you reside. And all this because you belong to an ethnic group which is different from the majority. Remind you of something? Me it reminds of South Africa in the distant white past.
Yes, blowing up buses and restaurants was ghastly. But is land grabbing and ritual humiliation on a daily basis any different? And let's not be coy about it, when it comes to using force -- sometimes just for the davka of it -- the Israelis were hardly backward when going forward.
It's very easy to say it's their fault that their plight is bad, but Israel cannot be absolved of its part. Israel maintains to this day that the Palestinians must not take unilateral steps on the road to a resolution of this conflict (I refrain from calling it peace because I doubt that in my lifetime we'll ever see that because NEITHER side really wants it). Yet Israel itself, through its East Jerusalem building programme, its isra-bluff moratorium on construction and its allowing colonists like yourself a free hand to cajole, bully and humiliate the Palestinians is engaging in precisely the unilateral steps that you deny the "natives".
You want to be a Zionist pioneer, go and live in the Negev or Galil, because if you don't, they'll be Kosovo'ed too.


treppenwitz

15 January, 2010 - 10:40

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Moshe... Just so we're clear, what you have done there is called an 'Ad Hominem argument'... basically that means instead of taking issue with what I have said, you have decided to attack me personally in order to discredit what I have to say. But let's play it your way...

Anyway, here we go:

"In other words, you are a West Bank settler who has benefited from Israeli state largesse both economically and in security matters"

Actually, no. The Israeli government used to offer financial incentives to people to move to my town (as they do to many development towns inside the green line) but they discontinued that before I arrived. Good guess though. And as to the security half of your assumption, my town pays for its own security arrangements. BTW, the population of the so called settlements serves in the army in combat units at a much higher rate than those who live in the center of the country.

"You probably travel on Israeli-only roads, you receive huge privileges when it comes to land and water distribution, yet you are a minority within the area, the occupied territories, in which you reside. And all this because you belong to an ethnic group which is different from the majority.

0 for 2. I actualy have only been on one 'Israeli only road in all the time Ive lived here; route 443. It was made Israeli only after several fatal shootings by our 'partners in peace'. The Israeli supreme court has just ordered it to be opened to all traffic, Jewish and Arab... so there, you have one less things to be enraged about. And sinc we're on the subject of who can go where, there are plenty of areas that are illegal for me to enter (ie.e. Bethlehem, Ramallah, Nablus, etc.). Why is it you don't see this as an illegal ethnic prohibition? And as to being aan enthnic minority... that trick only works if you look at the West bank as a stand-alone area... which it is not. It is par of a larger area controlled by Israel, therefore there is a Jewish majority.

"Me it reminds of South Africa in the distant white past.
Yes, blowing up buses and restaurants was ghastly. But is land grabbing and ritual humiliation on a daily basis any different? And let's not be coy about it, when it comes to using force -- sometimes just for the davka of it -- the Israelis were hardly backward when going forward."

Me, it seems you have a problem with sentence structure... but let's not quibble. Anyone who can say it is ghastly to blow up buses full of civilians, and then follow it with a 'but' is providing cover and justification for terror. That sickens me. Since you have a Jewish sounding name this sickens me even more. Israel is nothing like South Africa during APartheid and your repeating it is further proof that you subscribe to the big book of Palestinian lies. Go look at life in Iran or Saudi Arabia and then tell me about how my country's society is not free.

"... Israel itself, through its East Jerusalem building programme, its isra-bluff moratorium on construction and its allowing colonists like yourself a free hand to cajole, bully and humiliate the Palestinians is engaging in precisely the unilateral steps that you deny the "natives"."

Ah, now we come to the crux of your problem. You have no legal or historical context for your feelings about the conflict. If you studied your history you would see that the so called settlers are not in any way shape or form 'colonists' . The last legal sovereign of the West Bank was the Ottoman Empire. After that the Mandate took over and specifically declared that JEws (and only Jews) were to be allowed to settle the entire land described in the Mandatory documents. Jordan occupied the West bank illegally (only Pakistan and the UK recofnized Jordan's claims), and even they renounced their claims to everything back in the '80s. International law regarding colonizing a conquered are does not appy to the west bank because of the continued validity of the Mandatory decisions. You can argue that the Palestinians have been largely ignored (in violation of the Mandate requirement that other people's civic and religious rights not be infringed upon), but that does not make us colonists. I don't bully or humiliate anyone nor do any of my neighbors. But I have gone to far to many funerals of murdered Israelis to allow your insults to pass. being shot at and bown up is a far worse form of humiliation than being stopped at a security check point. What the Palestinians are foreced to endure at the check points is no worse than what you go through at the airport. Let's keep in mind that the airport checks (lIke the road checks here in Israel) are largely due to Palestinian terror.

"You want to be a Zionist pioneer, go and live in the Negev or Galil, because if you don't, they'll be Kosovo'ed too.

You have a lot of nerve telling me where I can and can't live and why I might chose to live in one place over another. If you were to do that to an Arab I would call you a Racist. Come to think of it, I will call you a racist. You clearly hate your own people and are ashamed of the Jews.

In another time they would have had a name for you: Kapo.


moshetzarfati2

15 January, 2010 - 13:26

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Treppenwitz: Kapo, eh? As you would say, nu, nicha. But you have, very early on, invoked Godwin's Rule, to whit: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
It wasn't an ad hominem either, since it questioned Israeli policies on the West Bank, to which as a settler, you are party.
So what if your town/settlement/colony has a large percentage of combat soldiers. In that it isn't any different from other middle class and affluent towns in Israel proper. It isn't a development town. In fact, if Israel had used the resources it wasted on the settlements/colonies for the "development" towns, it's likely that the "development" towns would have fewer social and economic problems that they have now.

Why is it you don't see this as an illegal ethnic prohibition? And as to being aan enthnic minority... that trick only works if you look at the West bank as a stand-alone area... which it is not. It is par of a larger area controlled by Israel, therefore there is a Jewish majority.

Ok, so it is controlled by Israel. Great. Even better in fact. So let's crunch numbers. How many Jews are there in Israel proper and in the territories? Let's say 5.5 million. How many non-Jews in Israel proper? About 1.5 to 1.8 million. yes? How many non-Jews in the occupied territories who are controlled by Israel but have no rights whatsoever? About 3.5 million? Add to that the 1.5 million in Gaza who are in effect controlled by Israel and you have a non-Jewish majority of about 6.5-6.8 million to 5.5 million Jews between the Med and the River Jordan. And the majority of these non-Jews are disenfranchised by the country which controls them, Israel.

Ah, now we come to the crux of your problem. You have no legal or historical context for your feelings about the conflict. If you studied your history you would see that the so called settlers are not in any way shape or form 'colonists' .

Cute, but inaccurate. The settlers/colonists are sitting on land obtained through force (1967). The West Bank (and Golan and Gaza) were never part of Israel. In fact, one could go so far as to say that the only recognised borders Israel can make claim to are those of the 1947 partition.

But I have gone to far to many funerals of murdered Israelis to allow your insults to pass. being shot at and bown up is a far worse form of humiliation than being stopped at a security check point. What the Palestinians are foreced to endure at the check points is no worse than what you go through at the airport. Let's keep in mind that the airport checks (lIke the road checks here in Israel) are largely due to Palestinian terror.

And how many funerals have the Palestinians gone to due to Israeli use of force? And no, having stood at checkpoints during miluim, it's not like an airport check. it's far more humiliating than that. You can fool some of the people some of the time, Treppenwitz...And to a large extent the checkpoints, especially the roving ones (yes, I know about those, too) are designed specifically to keep the indigenous population in their place.
You may be disparaging of England and we English Jews, but here in England we learned something quite fundamental about human behaviour in the 1970s and 1980s. That is, if you treat people in like animals -- as was the case in our football leagues at the time -- those treated such would behave like animals (even though it was claimed that this fencing was for safety reason). It's a shame that the Israelis, in their condescension and arrogance, don't learn this lesson.
I may have redefined chutzpah in telling you where to live. And you may have redefined it further in calling me a kapo, but let's face it, Treppenwitz, if Israel doesn't divert resources from the largely middle-class and affluent West Bank colonies, then the Bedouin in the Negev and the Arab majority in Galil will do a Kosova.
And Israel won't be able to blame that on anyone else, as per...
And you are disparaging of British Jews...


treppenwitz

15 January, 2010 - 14:20

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Moshe... you tire me (which was probably your intention.

"It wasn't an ad hominem either, since it questioned Israeli policies on the West Bank, to which as a settler, you are party.

It, lik the other comments by your fellow kapos above, were of course ad hominem. The topic of Miram's (and my) post was whether Jews in the UK feel threatened. You lot hijacked it to attack Israeli policies you dislike. In a comic twist, you actually proved several of the points I mad in my post.

"if Israel had used the resources it wasted on the settlements/colonies for the "development" towns, it's likely that the "development" towns would have fewer social and economic problems that they have now.

You are out of your depth here. What the government of Israel deems appropriate to 'waste its resources on' is none of your afair. Come live here and pay some taxes and we'll give a care for what you have to say about how they are spent. Barring that, you jump in a lake.

"How many Jews are there in Israel proper and in the territories? Let's say... "

No, let's not. You are talking through your hat here. The Numbers you quote for the Arab population are based on very suspect Arab and UN sources. There has yet to b a valid census of the Arab population for the simple reason that UN and other foreign aid is based on the PA and Hamas population figures. They have a vested interest in inflating them. I won't pla the numbers game with you. and Gaza is not and never will be part of the equation when talking about the West Bank under Israeli control. You ar deliberately trying to pad the figures and I wont play along.

"The West Bank (and Golan and Gaza) were never part of Israel. In fact, one could go so far as to say that the only recognised borders Israel can make claim to are those of the 1947 partition.

You are wrong in the law and wrong in the facts. I can't and won't try to discuss this with someone who is ignorant of basic history.

You sir are a kapo plain and simple. A Jew who thinks that by cozying up to our enemies that you will escape their hate. I would dearly love to drop you off in the middle of Ramallah and see if you have time to explain that you are one of the good Jews before they cut you own.

I don;t disparage all British Jews... just those who are so ashamed of their heritage that they refuse to even learn enough about it to discuss it intelligently.

Good day sir. We're done here.


moshetzarfati2

15 January, 2010 - 15:58

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Keep it up, David, because by resorting to Holocaust imagery, most people here will recognise that you are plumbing emotional depths because you have no rational argument. Never mind. Maybe one day you will grow up.
Yes, many British Jews do feel threatened. But not in a way some of Israel's apologists quite hope. To quote Ehud Olmert -- remember him? he used to be your Prime Minister -- Israel's actions are threatening Jews around the world. It's a sad fact but true that far from granting Jews a haven and something to be proud of, Israel has done precisely the opposite through its condescension and arrogance.
Oh, and I didn't hijack the thread to attack Israel's policies. Read what you wrote about us British Jews and our relationship with Israel and you will see that it was you who put it on the table.

You are out of your depth here. What the government of Israel deems appropriate to 'waste its resources on' is none of your afair.

Whoa there. Is Israel the State of the Jewish people or not? Or are we allowed to talk only if we agree wholeheartedly with what it is doing? Are we all supposed to agree to the Yisrael (lo) Beiteinu hymn sheet put out by Mssrs Lieberman and Ayalon?
I do note, however, that you cannot contradict the fact that Israel spent huge amounts of resources on the largely middle class and affluent colonies while ignoring the plight of those who lived in the periphery. Perhaps those who govern Israel think its a good thing that the country is now languishing near the bottom of international education tables because of the large number of parents in the "development" towns who choose to send their kids to get no education at Shas schools (yes, I know about that, too). Just think of the money that could have been spent on state schools instead of on settler-only roads or schools near or in Beit El, Shavei Shomron or Nokdim.
And how about the resources spent on guarding Tapuach, Ma'aleh Mikmas or Yitzhar that could have been used instead for hospitals or road safety in Israel proper?

They have a vested interest in inflating them. I won't pla the numbers game with you. and Gaza is not and never will be part of the equation when talking about the West Bank under Israeli control. You ar deliberately trying to pad the figures and I wont play along.

You may have noticed that we've just had a very bad winter here -- ice, snow and everything. One thing we thick British Jews have learned is that you don't go out on lakes with thin ice. Very sensible of you not to want to talk numbers with me. You'd be on very thin ice.

I can't and won't try to discuss this with someone who is ignorant of basic history.

Make that I can't and won't try and discuss this with someone who disagrees with me, but knows what he is talking about.

You sir are a kapo plain and simple. A Jew who thinks that by cozying up to our enemies that you will escape their hate. I would dearly love to drop you off in the middle of Ramallah and see if you have time to explain that you are one of the good Jews before they cut you own.

My goodness, you really do like Holocaust imagery.
I have nothing to look for in Ramallah -- and neither have you. I also note that from reading the Hebrew press (Yediot, Maariv, Haaretz and even Makor Rishon) all those Israelis who have strayed into Palestinian towns have been taken to the Israelis and handed over. Safely. So much for your claim that any Jews who enters the Palestinian towns are "cut down". Perhaps you only wish that were the case.

Achi, be'kitzur, atah medaber me'hatachat.


Mikefenster

15 January, 2010 - 18:41

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Its a shame this thread was diverted. But if British Jews' critical views on Israel are somehow taken as a sign of the ill-health of the Jewish community, then that is inevitable. The presence of J-street in the US or Btselem in Israel isn't taken as a sign of the decline of those two countries' Jewish communities.

In many ways Jews in Britain are becoming more diverse, and more reflective of the diverse country that Britain is becoming. We don't all go to United Synagogue shuls, blindly donate to Israel via JIA, and all live in conventional families. Jewish life here 30 years ago was more uniform, more boring, and guess what - there was just as much anti-semitism. We didn't have CST to publicise what was going on, (and who knows, Limmud would probably hve been just as secure without them) but I remember my father having to spend the night during the 60's protecting the shul in Ilford from Colin Jordan's fascist thugs.

And by the way, in the US in 1998, I was shocked how unprotected Jewish communal buildings were compared to the UK. But my son's Jewish school there put in a very sophisticted gate and security system in 2000 following an attack on a communal centre in LA. So we aren't the only ones feeling insecure. And you never see security in Israel!!


Mikefenster

15 January, 2010 - 18:47

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You are right - back in 1988 Israelis and Arabs moved around Israel, the West Bank and Gaza very freely. And what did this peaceful approach for 22 years achieve for the palestinians? No automony, new Jewish settlements all over the West Bank and the start of the Gush Katif in the strip, a generation of occupation and absolutely no prospect of change from an Israel establishment that was very happy occupying the territories and offering no prospect of democracy or citizenship to the palestinians. Remember Shamir and the Madrid conference. I was frustrated, I can only imagine how frustrated the arabs were.


tomeisner2

15 January, 2010 - 18:59

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Good points Mikefenster and moshetzarfati2 you put it all so well. Have good weekends wherever you are!

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