Happy New Year to our Palestinian brothers and sisters as well

They might have one, if they abandon unreasonable expectations:

From the River to the Sea – Public Opinion in Palestine
http://www.daphneanson.blogspot.com/

No reason, logically, morally, legally, why the Palestinian Arabs should have yet another state.

They aren't brothers and sisters, as their media keeps telling us. Al official palestinian bodies, whether Hamas or Fatah, are profoundly antisemitic.

Some brothers and sisters.

clevenson, you are of course aware that Palestinian school textbooks describe Jews as "apes and monkeys"? Hamas advocates the extermination of every Jew on earth, and Fatah says it will never, under any circumstances, recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Happy with this, are you?

By the way, Ariel is not illegal.

clevenson, it is clear you simply hate the Jews. Why do you persist in coming here?

Clevenson, please could you explain to me - preferably without resorting to tired, overused reactionary tropes - why Jews have any less right to live in Judea and Samaria (or the West Bank if you prefer) than their "Palestinian brothers and sisters"? And could you also explain why people that do choose to live there should be the target of foreign outrage and boycotts?

I just don't understand. I really don't. Please explain it to me.

mattpryor, would you let the French or Dutch come here and throw you out of your house? there is your answer.

Amber
I don't hate the Jews but I loath and hate what Israel stands for.
They will not survive in their present form

clevenson

"Hate what Israel stands for"? What's that, clevenson?

You're a Jew hating scumbag.

Why don't you reply aboput the Palestinian textbooks, or the antisemitism of Hamas or Fatah?

Shame on you.

amber what about the anti Palestiniasm of Israel and narrow minded old bags like yourself (you called me a scum bag)

clevenson

That's because you are - and you're a poor excuse of a Jew hater as well. Your pathetic attempt to excuse blatant antisemitism, Jews are described as "apes and pigs" in palestinian textbooks - are Palestinians described in such terms in Israeli textbooks/ use your brain - if you have one.

It is a disgrace the JC gives a platform to Jew haters such as you - it's time to stop being so defensive and carefully rebutting your infantile and offensive slurs against the Jewish state. You're not interested in truth, because your whole hatred is utterly irrational and visceral.

The reason the JC gives a platform to Jews like myself is because my views are very representative of many Jews in Britain and Europe. We have a right to be heard.

Your views Amber are always so one sided, which is so typical of the Israel supporters, you totally ignore all the populations in Israel/Palestine who are not Jewish. According to your myopic world We Jews are much more important than others, is this not the case?

Amber
Why do you always get so hysterical?

"mattpryor, would you let the French or Dutch come here and throw you out of your house? there is your answer."

You are making a fictitious comparison. That is not the reality. We are not talking about people being thrown out of their homes, we are talking about people building homes, schools and hospitals in what is largely desert. So again, why is it right that non-Jews (specifically, Muslim Arabs) should be allowed to build homes in the region but Jews are not?

So again I repeat my question - which you have not answered - why do Jews have any less right to live their than Muslim Arabs?

Incidentally if you want to talk about people literally being thrown out of their homes so that others can move in - by the thousands - you should look at what happened to Jews in Gush Katif and elsewhere in Gaza. Many of those people are still homeless. Do you think that's fair or just?

Secondly. You say that you hate what Israel stands for. That is remarkably honest of you, and I have long suspected that the pro-Palestinian movement is mostly motivated by hatred of Israel. So thank you for confirming that in your own words.

Let's be honest. You and I are both a bit obsessed by the Arab-Israel conflict, or we wouldn't spend so much time talking about it online. But there is a difference between us. It seems to me that your motivation is hatred, whereas mine is love. I love humanity, with all its flaws and mistakes. I love freedom, democracy, liberalism, tolerance, music, art, life. Those are the things that Israel (and Judaism) stand for, and those are the things that Israel's enemies despise.

That is why people like myself, Amber, Yvetta, will always stand up to your views. You may not be an anti-Semite yourself (I can't judge since I don't know you) but if you think there are no such people in the world then you are very misguided, and your words and thoughts give them strength and succour.

Clevenson I am saying this from the heart, because this is an issue I feel extremely strongly about. When you start acting out of compassion and love, and not hatred, you will be able to change things and move people and make the world a better place. Unfortunately as things stand you are only making things worse.

OF course the settlements are illegal!!! The whole world knows that. It's not about Jews being able to live where they want it's about land appropriation and apartheid. The settlements are for jews only. As are the roads that service them and the water than feeds them. That is Apartheid.

When Palestinians are finally permitted to live like the rest of us - free from occpation, humiliation, army incursions, missile attacks etc, when they have their own contiguous land that is not criss crossed with road blocks and walls, than of course jewish people should be permitted to live there. And to worship and to shop, play and marry. In peace and tranquility. But not in Jew only settlements! That is Apartheid.

"OF course the settlements are illegal!!! The whole world knows that."

No, the whole world does not know that. That's your opinion. There is a world of difference between opinion and fact. It doesn't matter how many exclamation marks you add, it doesn't make your opinion any more valid.

"It's not about Jews being able to live where they want it's about land appropriation and apartheid."

You have no idea what apartheid means do you? You keep using the word without any concept of its meaning. All you're achieving is devaluing the word and making yourself sound like an idiot.

Apartheid refers to the South African system where the black majority was denied the right to vote, work in certain jobs, educational opportunities, based purely on their skin colour. They were ruled over by a white minority and literally treated like second class citizens - beaten in the streets, driven from their homes. That simply is not the case in Israel and never has been. However if you look to countries like Sudan or Saudi Arabia you will see something much closer to true apartheid where Arab elites deny voting (and other) rights to other ethnic groups. But let's not talk about the Arabs eh?

"The settlements are for jews only. As are the roads that service them and the water than feeds them. That is Apartheid."

Well I didn't know people ate water, but let's let that one go. Also it's interesting that you don't use a capital 'J' for Jews. That in itself is a form of disrespect (or disrespectful laziness, but judging from the rest of your posts I'd say it's the former).

As for "Jew only roads", that is quite simply a lie. Please read this:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=38&x_article=1791

And then apologise for your slanderous and anti-Semitic accusations.

As for the water situation, it is much more nuanced than you suggest. You need to look into the agreements about water that were included in the Oslo accords and how Israel has exceeded its obligations while the Palestinian Authority has reneged its commitments - for example the sewage treatment plant paid for by international donors which never got built (the money disappeared into the pockets of corrupt PA officials). But then I don't suppose you'll bother.

Neither of these, by the way, constitutes apartheid of any kind, and these are political issues not humanitarian ones. If you want these problems addressed support the negotiations and be more moderate and less confrontational in your complaints. All you are doing here is offending people.

No clevenson, I have never said anything of the kind, because I do not think Jews are more important than others. That would mean I consider Jews more important than myself. I challenge you to find anything i have written to back your pathetic claim.

Your views are not representative, save for a few Communist/leftist apologists who have it in for Israel whilst you are completely blind to the antisemitism which is rife in Palestinian and wider Arab societies.

But then, as a Jew hater, that's not surprising.

Spot the Difference (aka Lost in a Masquerade):

clevenson 9 September, 2010 - 19:34
I don't hate the Jews but I loath and hate what Israel stands for.
They will not survive in their present form

clevenson
10 September, 2010 - 08:05
The reason the JC gives a platform to Jews like myself is because my views are very representative of many Jews in Britain and Europe. We have a right to be heard.
....According to your myopic world We Jews are much more important than others, is this not the case?

Yvetta, you're using logical argument, completely lost on clevenson, the rabid Israel basher.

Why does the JC entertain these hateful morons?

In fact, naming every Jewish colony in West Bank as "illegal" proves only once more that those who do that are deeply racist. Must the future Palestine state be "Judenrein"?
Why make such fuss about such a little minority and not mention that Israel had a 20% Muslim population?

The fact is that racists like Clevenson support Muslim countries being overwhelmingly Muslims and blasts Israel for being 'only' 20% Muslim. Racism in its clearest forms.

amber, you should not make a racist allegation like this without giving a source …

amber: … Palestinian school textbooks describe Jews as "apes and monkeys"

this does not appear to be true … if it is, what is your source?

clevenson, stephen sondheim and others are "taking a stand" for racism and international law, and not …

clevenson: … taking a stand for human rights and international law.

they support an aim which is simply racist … the aim of having no jews on the west bank (especially contrasted with the huge proportion of arabs in israel)

(every country, of course, has an immigration policy which limits immigration from races other than its own majority race … that is usually not considered racism … but a limit of zero for a particular race is undeniably racist)

international law, unfortunately, generally supports the right of any nation to be as racist as it likes within its own territory

racism should be unacceptable in the the modern world, but certain people both accept and encourage it if …………

sondheim and others would do better to imitate a previous generation of jewish-americans who supported african-americans who broke the law to oppose racism by illegally sitting on bus-seats or in restaurants

settlements may be contrary to international law (specifically, to the last sentence of article 49 of the fourth geneva convention, if the west bank is "occupied territory"), but they don't breach any human right …

• they don't kill or injure anyone
• they don't deprive anyone of any property he owns
• they don't displace anyone (make anyone move home)
• they don't deprive anyone of freedom of speech etc, or subject anyone to torture, abitrary arrest, etc …

all they do is force people to have jewish neighbours

… and not even neighbours sitting next to them on the bus or in the restaurant , or living in the same street or village, but safely on a distant hilltop

if only other countries in breach of international law did it in as harmless a way as this!

Ariel, is an illegal settlement, built upon Palestinian land. The state of Israel has virtually accepted this fact by recognising it needs to legitimise this illegal settlement, and as such Ariel has been discussed by Israel in a proposed 'land swap' which would, Israel hopes enable them to cede small disconnected bits of land to the future Palestinian state, on the condition that Ariel, is annexed into Israel's recognised borders.

ibrows, the land is not "Palestinian" - legally or morally - and never was - at any time - ever. Clear enough?

hg, you are quite right, Jews are merely referred to as "pigs" - not "pigs and monkeys" in school textbooks.

http://www.israelbehindthenews.com/bin/content.cgi?ID=1604&q=1

This is unlike official Palestinian TV broadcasts from Fatah, which do indeed describe Jews as "apes and pigs" and extol the virtues of killing Jews.

I'm sure clevenson is fine with that.

Clevenson/ibrows is a racist in tuxedo. He hides visceral antisemitism behind Palestinian support.
It is clear that racism is not exclusive to Palestinians, but on their side, it amounts to a commandment.
No matter how racist clevenson/ibrows Palestinian friends show (by not tolerating the presence of any Jew on what they consider 'their land'), he will support them and criticize Israel for not agreeing with that racist outlook of a potential country.
This attitude of course does not show support to Palestinians who should not care whether their future compatriots are Jews or Muslims. It just shows pure and clear antisemitism and intolerance.

amber, you're obviously not a historian … that's not a source, it's a source for a source

your (2002) article records a telephone interview with canadian joseph wilder, in which he does not claim to have seen the (arabic!) textbook himself, but to have been told about it by …

David Bedein of the Israel Resource News Agency, whom they had asked to investigate the use of school texts in refugee camps

so we have to do a google search for ' "David Bedein" "Israel Resource News Agency" ', which gives us lots of pages on http://www.israelbehindthenews.com , and then we refine the search by adding the word 'textbooks' and still get plenty to look at

in none of those do there appear to be (i haven't checked all of them, of course) any reference to textbooks describing jews as "pigs"

and it is obvious from david bedein's writings that he would have mentioned it if there was

for example, his most recent article (of 6/8/2010), Interview with David Bedein: UN Teaches Jihad in Jerusalem, does not mention it

not does (10/6/2010) Review of First Screening of FOR THE SAKE OF NAKBA, although it does mention a student talking, on nakba day, …

about the importance of liberating Palestine from the Jewish “pigs”; his teacher nods approvingly.

amber, since david bedein seems a very reliable researcher, do you not now conclude that there is no evidence that …

amber: Jews are merely referred to as "pigs" … in school textbooks