Hagee blames Jews for anti-Semitism

Enough already!!!

Anyway, one swallow does not make a summer.

As I have already told you, I am sending your comments to John Hagee with a suggestion that he sues you for libel.

I have your previous post saved in my computer.

I will add what you have added here.

When he does sue you, I personally will offer evidence heard by me from 2 Rabbis - one of them a great Rabbi - proving that everything you have quoted is within the bounds of Jewish Thought, and that there is nothing anti-semitic in what was said.

I won't tell you in advance any of the details of my evidence, because I want you to lose this case.

I will add that only a fool can't see the connection between the Holocaust and the establishment of the State of Israel, which you so hate, as evident in your ramblings. Beside you, Minister John Hagee is a Zadik.

Difficult to disagree with what you say, John, but since the essence of the output of the Holocaust was the establishment of the State of Israel, which is still in its early stages, I think that for the moment we should conclude that 'the ball is still in the air' and that we are too early for a final summary of the Holocaust.

Avraham, for years, the leaders of the Zionist movement -- from the left to the right -- have been explaining that the Holocaust did not create the state of Israel, that the Jews have historical rights there. So what's it to be?

The historical rights have nothing to do with the Holocaust. Even without the Holocaust we had - and have - rights in Eretz Yisrael. The Holocaust expedited our reaccessing our original rights.

The land of Israel was being settled many decades before the Holocaust, but it is doubtful if the UN resolution in 1947 would have been passed - or even brought to the vote - at that point in time - without following the Holocaust.

Most goyim voted in favour out of guilt for the Holocaust, not for love of the Jewish People.

Avraham.

You seem to be idealistic about it all.
Do you really think that Jewish people are going to leave the comfort and stability of 'Christian' countries and emigrate to Israel (all 5 million of them?).

Avraham, why the threats of legal action... As the JC points out, moderators are not part of the process on this site in order to encourage freedom of speech... Threats of legal action also counter freedom of speech. And Moshe has only cited what others have said, whilst fighting his own corner in a much less abusive manner than many other JC bloggers.

Andrew,
"You seem to be idealistic about it all.
Do you really think that Jewish people are going to leave the comfort and stability of 'Christian' countries and emigrate to Israel (all 5 million of them?)."

A good and valid point. I'm personally as idealist as I am realistic, and as realistic as I am idealistic.

It's like a guy wending his way thru heavy traffic, or thru a difficult forrest, but not losing site of his destination.

The facts are with you; I think that the majority of people who emigrated to Israel did so thru anti-semitism. I, who voluntarily came here for a year - and stayed - see myself as one of a few.

But as Efraim Kishon once put it, if outside of Israel someone says that only a miracle can save them, then they are in deep trouble. But here in Israel, if someone says the same thing, then a miracle is what is expected to happen, and it usually does.

Were I totally realistic, I wouldn't be here.

DLeigh-Ellis:
" Avraham, why the threats of legal action"

- a valid question; you can't maintain regular exchanges of views if people will insist on involving lawyers all the time.

This is an extreme case, at 2 separate levels.
Moshe Zarfati is consistently - consistently! read a few of his ramblings - using JC facilities to loudmouth Israel, all motivated by his personal failures here in Israel.

And as a true, left-wing democratically-oriented believer, if he doesn't like what you write he deletes it where he can.

The person he has slandered is a Christian Minister who supports right-wing Israeli causes. But not only right-wing causes. I met him last year here in Jerusalem when he came, together with an orthodox rabbi from his home town with whom he collaborates on needy causes of mutual (Judeo-Christian) interest, to celebrate his donation of half a million dollars, which was used to build a Home for Life - called the Home of Light - for 21 Autisitic teens and adults. The celebration was the opening of this Home.

Zarfati does not possess the theosophical background to be able to intellectually evaluate the meaning of the Minister's statement on how he views the Holocaust, and so just called him an anti-semite, thus slandering a fine man who does good inter-faith charitable works, in a country not his own.

I fully intend that Zarfati - and the JC, which was given an opportunity to disassociate itself from the remarks but has refrained from doing so - will pay the full price of such slander. The JC allows too much anti-Israeli comment. Freedom of Speech in Britain has always been suspended at time of war - did you ever see a non-censored report from the Falklands? - and Israel is a country at war.

It will become a legal matter with which I will not be involved, unless called as a (willing) witness.

I have seen enough foul play on this website from both the left and right sides of the political spectrum.... Its just that the 'right' tends to use threats more often, which does not help their case. Hoffman and Jicohen regualarly are far more abusive than Moshe and despite the fact that I have called them on this many times, Moshe is still the recipient of disproportionate slander.

I dont understand your suggestion that as Israel is at war, freedom of Speech in the UK should be suspended. Besides, you talk about freedom of speech in the media and public discourse as if they are the same thing, whilst you must know that each concept has a distinct and individual role in a functioning society.

The JC has refrained from 'disassociating' itself from his remarks because his remarks are not those of the JC. As i mentioned before the JC do not use moderators precisely to prevent from being accused of freedom of speech. Furthermore, the terms and conditions you signed when signing up for the account include the clause:

'15.1 Commentary and other material posted on our website is not intended to amount to advice on which reliance should be placed. We disclaim all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on such materials by any user of our website or by anyone who may be informed of any of its content.'

So the JC has no obligation to censor Moshe or anybody elses remarks, In fact, for them to do so would be a disservice to both journalism and debate itself.

I have read many of Moshe's 'ramblings' over the past sixth months. Many of his sentiments I do not agree with, but all I would say is that he is nowhere near the most offensive blogger on this website... just a teeny bit controversial. The thing I cannot understand is why other bloggers seem to feel the need to quash his comments into the ground. Just man up and deal with it, challenge him and prove him wrong. If he then chooses to then delete comments then you have proved your point, but any attempt to take it further and involve the law would see the prosecution attempt laughed out of court.

The JC offers its 'facilities' because although it has a fairly conservative stance itself, it recognises the process of free speech. It is certainly not for individual bloggers to threaten each other with legal action over nothing more than opinions. If you want to simply support Israel without question then go contribute to an IDF or Aish Hatorah blog, if you want to be part of a newspaper that aims to include the greater UK jewish community then I'm afraid you will have just deal with a little bit of aggro at the same time...

Avraham.

As you don't seem totally blinkered to some Christians having a positive impact in Israel (as the minister who has contributed to the autistic school), I am messianic and in light of the 5-6 million Jewish people that are still in voluntary exile, (he often referred to the people as stiff necked:-) but I like the passage in scripture of God's angels collecting his chosen up from the far flung parts of the earth - at the end of time.

John Gold:
"As you don't seem totally blinkered to some Christians having a positive impact in Israel ..."

John, I have only 2 things against Christians:
1. What they did to us during 2,000 years amongst them. (The Cathoilc Church's Office of Inquisition, for example, is still an active office within that church.)

2. Christians who believe that at the end of time all Jews will convert to Christianity - so far that's just a matter of belief, no problem there - but who actively perform missionary activities today, intended to immediately convert Jews to Christianity.

Other than that, I am not "blinkered" to Christians who see the justice of Israel's cause, and want an active part in it.

But 2. above is always in the background, but Minister John Hagee is certainly not one of those.

Avraham, I didn't know I had the power to delete comments. I must thank the Elders for giving me this potency when I next see them. As for Hagee, he condemned himself by his own words. Blaming Jews for anti-Semitism or the Holocaust is like blaming women for rape. It's the worst kind of revisionism because "a friend" -- and that's very debatable -- under the pretense of that "friendship" alleges that the worst crime in history was done for good reasons. He's no friend, he's a swivel-eyed evangelical "troofer" who will do anything to hasten his version of the apocalypse. In what way is he any different from Ahmedinejad?

I do not represent the JC and I never claimed to, but my account has not been working for the last two weeks, as a result I happen to have spent a large amount of time in the last fortnight discussing JC protocols with the staff. I may not represent them but I still have the right to speculate, and I think in this case I understand the issues full well.

Your restaurant analogy is flawed, You are assuming that all Wimpy customers only eat Burgers, and may not eat anything else. Being a Jew allows you to look into Jewish philosophy and decide according to its precepts what is right and what is not... There are very few 'set' patterns of thought. Israel is only the central 'bastion' of Jews if it accurately reflects what Jews think, and atm there is a large and growing group that oppose its hardline foriegn and domestic policies. To challenge such dangerous ideas is not something that should be disparaged. Improvement is the way to success, and the first step to improvement involves criticism, which may be emotionally difficult if you choose to defend something without question or forethought.

Your opinion that to 'take positions harmful and dishonest' is bizarre and confused. If I am working to improve the day to day problems within a country then I cannot be considered as working 'against that country,' even if I have to break a few eggs to make my omelette. That is why it is necessary and fundamental to include criticism of Israel on these pages, malicious and spiteful criticism no.... But genuine criticism is 100% legit!

This Hagee has form. he's an equal opportunities offender.

On Hurricane Katrina:

Pastor John Hagee — whose endorsement Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said this past Sunday he was “glad to have” — told NPR’s Terry Gross that “Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.” “New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God,” Hagee said, because “there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came.”