Green-Lined: The Foolishness of a Fantasy

This comment by Ben Abuyah has been moderated

N.B. A link to that Doward piece in the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/aug/07/historian-tony-judt-dies

"Well, if the alternative would be spending eternity with fascist scum like you, then I'd much rather burn in hell."

That from a latter-day Goebbels. Oh, and if there is indeed a hell, I am sure you'll get your wish. Don't forget the factor 50.

Moderators - Abuyah has today called another poster a "moron" and now he calls another one 'fascist scum'.

He must go. He is abusing this blog.

Jonathan, you're such a comedian.

The Yisrael Medad piece attacks Judt for advocating a binational state and then goes on "But Judt was not alone" - and then attacks someone else for advocating a two-state solution! So what do Jonathan and Joshua18 advocate as a solution? One state - ie one Jewish state across the whole land? I'd really like to know what your solution is and whether - if you really do support this form of one state solution, you really think it can work.

Deborah

Ben Abuyah

I think your real surname begins with a 'V'?

Correct?

Joonathan, you haven't answered my question and have gone instead asked Ben Abuyah something entirely irrelevant. By indicating on other blogs that you think he shoud lose his job for expressing his opinions, you have amply justified his decision to remain anonymous,so let's leave it at that. I could make some comments about people who try to intimidate other people with the threat of getting them sacked from their jobs on account of their opinions, but I will refrain for now. I'd like to know your solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Deborah

Deborah you know damn well what my views are, we have spoken/emailed/blogged often enough!

Jonathan

Jonathan, that's what I thought - that you advocate one Jewish state across the whole land. But do you really think this can work? Won't there always be problems with the Palestinians and the international community, who will call this apartheid? Unless of course, Israel gives all the Palestinians the vote - but I think you might have problems with that.

Deborah

I can feel a vulcano is about to erupt!

Indeed Kahina

It feels like Daniel Going into the Lion's Den

Deborah - you're wrong

Well it has gone eerily quiet .... always happens before vulkano's erupt ...

And there was me thinking he had the courage of his own convictions ... funny how they crumble when outed ...

Actually, I've not been stuck in front of my computer all day - I do have other things to do with my life.

And the fact that your detective work seems to have paid off (it took a while, didn't it) doesn't change my opinion of you. I still think you're a bigot, a hypocrite and an embarrassment to the Jewish community.

DV

Jonathan, just saying "you're wrong" is not an argument. Could you explain how one Jewish state across the whole land is going to be a workable solution?

Deborah

Since I imagine you're already taking steps outside of this blog, it probably makes sense for both of us to refrain from making any further comments.

This comment by Jonathan Hoffman has been moderated

Maccoby, your organization takes part in pro-Hizbollah rallies, and we're mnt to listen to you?

Abuyah, you don't know what fascism is. Don't use that word so lightly until you do.

JH
Well done Jonathan for "outing" Ben Abuyah.
Good riddance to another trendy-lefty bit of bad rubbish!
Rgds

Amber, why don't you and Joshua18 post under your real names? There is no rule here that people have to do so. I very much hope Jonathan doesn't take any steps outside this blog - it would be a disgraceful thing to do.

The marches and demonstrations against the Second Lebanon War were precisely that - against the Second Lebanon War, not pro-Hezbollah, any more than the protests against Cast Lead were pro-Hamas. The official slogan of the Second Lebanon War rallies was: "Unconditional ceasefire now" (applying to both sides), not support of Hezbollah. It was in support of that slogan that JfJfP participated in the marches. JfJfP does not support Hezbollah or condone their attacks on civilians.

Deborah

"JfJfP does not support Hezbollah or condone their attacks on civilians."

Yet by your silence you do. Typical for a lefty anti-semitic organisation, you completely ignore any attacks and provocations against the sovreign state of Israel and only weigh in when it takes steps to stop it.

Joshua18: Stop trolling. Wishing that people would burn in hell because you disagree with them is a little bit childish no?

Jonathan H: It is an interesting point though. In all the time I've known you, I've seen you rail against various things but I've never once actually heard you express your views. So, I can see that you're in favour of a one state solution (based on the comments above). could you expand on this for me. I'd be really interested if you could answer Deborah's question with regard to Palestinian vote etc.

If you expressed your own views more clearly rather than just belittling the views of others then you might win more people over.

I support the two state solution. Israel and Jordan, the original and only workable two state solution.

http://tinyurl.com/cg8k9d

Akiva is right
There is only one workable solution and from an earlier posting it concurrs with MK Zevulun Orlev who says, “The Arabs of the Palestinian Authority already have a state – Jordan.”
“The basis for every plan is our right to the Land of Israel, halakhically, historically, etc. In the present situation, however, we must see how we make the most of the situation - and not go for ‘all or nothing.’ There is no question that we cannot expel all of the Arabs who currently live in Judea and Samaria, and so the question is how do we deal with the given situation.”
My proposal, or vision, is based on the fact that there is not enough of an expanse in Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state, and that if one is established, it will not be viable and will have to spread out towards and threaten Israel. Not to mention that such a state would not be stable; we can never know who will rule there – Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran…
“The only solution, therefore, is that Jordan, of which 80 percent of its citizens are Palestinian, should be the Palestinian state, with offshoots in the areas that the PA currently controls here in Judea and Samaria. Their national rights, which I believe they deserve, such as a flag, currency, etc., should be manifest in a federation with Jordan - but it must not be an independent state, and Israel must maintain sovereignty and full military control over Judea and Samaria, including the Jordan Valley. In this way, we will maintain our historic rights and our security.”
A more detailed plan along these lines has long been promoted by former MK and Moledet party leader Benny Elon. Known as the Israel Initiative, the program calls for the rehabilitation of the Arab refugees and the dismantling of their ‘camps’ and of UNRWA; replacing the ineffectual Palestinian Authority 'partner' with Jordan - a reliable partner interested in stability; and replacing the Israeli ‘occupation’ in Judea and Samaria with full Israeli sovereignty, which will prevent Hamas and other terrorist organizations from taking control and will grant security to Israel and neighboring countries.
Whether or not the plan meets with immediate acceptance does not much concern Orlev, who said, “With or without us, Jordan will one day become a Palestinian state, as a large majority there has Palestinian roots.”
Not only is this being discussed within Israel, but ourtsdide, Holland for example Gert Wildrers hasd been advocationg "Jordan is Palestine". Tjhe hisorty would bear this out as being the only acceptable solution.
Gaza comes under Egyptian control and Israel can again live in peace and security.
This is the reality - it is just a matter of time.

There is a strong Palestinian national identity and a strong Jordanian national identity and the two are quite distinct. So the "Jordanian option" - "Jordan is Palestine" - can't possibly work. I suggest you read this article from Middle East Report On Line:

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero062104.html

And invoking the far-right Dutch politican Geert Wilders doesn't help your case....

Deborah

Did you ignore the part were 80% of Jordanians identify as "palestinian" arabs?

Either which way, I don't particularly care what their "identity" is. That does not mean they should automatically get a state, it's something every country has.

Akiva, my last link was to a 2004 article. Here's a very up-to-date piece from al-Jazeerah about the recent revival of the "Jordanian option" idea among the Israeli right and their supporters, such as you:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/07/2010748131864654.html

You may not care about Palestinian and Jordanian identities, but Palestinians and Jordanians do, which makes the "Jordanian option" unlikely to work.....

Deborah

Maccoby, your presence at pro-Hizbollah demonstrations (and they were pro-Hizbollah - remember "we are all Hizbollah now"?) is utterly disgusting. How you have the affrontery to hold your head up and pontificate on this blog is beyond shameful.

"Akiva, my last link was to a 2004 article. Here's a very up-to-date piece from al-Jazeerah about the recent revival of the "Jordanian option" idea among the Israeli right and their supporters, such as you"

Sorry Deborah, you may be fine with browsing through well-known propaganda websites which are biased in favor of international terrorist organisations. I am not.

"You may not care about Palestinian and Jordanian identities, but Palestinians and Jordanians do, which makes the "Jordanian option" unlikely to work....."

Let's review:

1. 80% of Jordanian's identify as "palestinian" arabs.

2. The british mandate was originally and criminally split as a two state solution, one for Jews the other for arabs.

3. There is only one Jewish state in the world, there are countless arab states.

4. Your ideals would lead to a four state solution. Jordan, Israel, PA-stan and Hamas-stan.

5. As the PA and Hamas advocate violence, terrorism and armed uprising against Israel, thus presenting a danger to her security, the only logical and workable solution is to have some PA controlled lands under the banner of Jordan who can enforce rule of law. The rest of Judea and Samaria should be annexed by Israel.

6. Nobody should care about any minor differences between the arabs (which are negligable at best) or the so called "palestinian" nationalism, as both were originally employed and continued to exist as a cover for islamic terrorist activity in the region.

7. The land belongs to Hashem, best get used to it.

DeborahMaccoby
quoting from from al-Jazeerah doesn't help your case; it is just laughable.
it just shows how out of place you are on this web site

If you are unaware of the history of the Middle East, you need to do some research and you need to read these 2 postings carefully:-

Jon_i_Cohen
9 August, 2010 - 15:31

Akiva
10 August, 2010 - 08:13

You need to wake up and accept the reality on the ground, there is never going to be an independent Fatahstan in Judea & Samaria, neither will there be an independent Hamastan in Gaza.
It will make no difference how loud you "trendy lefties" shout,scream or blogg, the facts on the ground mean that the Fatah Arabs will become aligned and absorbed into Jordan and the Hamas/Gaza Arabs will become aligned and controlled by Egypt, both these scenarios/predictions are the inevitable.
The point about Gert Wilders shows that international politicians are starting to realise and now advocate for the "Jordan is Palestine" case so the debate is now on the world stage.

DeborahMaccoby
Just look again at the title of this blogg:-

Green-Lined: The Foolishness of a Fantasy.

That is exactly where you people are:- In a Fantasy!

In a Fantasy?

Just like your wish that Jordan might hand over its national identity to the Palestinians....

Talk about foolishness Jon?

___

Btw.. JH, I love how much you are enhoying playing the detective with BA's identity... bet you've got a long coat, newspaper with eyeholes, the works.

Deborah, I can't speak for Amber and Joshua, of course, but the reason I don't post under my real name is because I endured several years (no kidding!) of sheer torment from an online stalker who latched onto me because he is - apart from being a coward who targets women - a rabid Israel-hater, and things got so out of hand that in the end the police paid him a visit to caution him!!

Still waiting for Mr Hoffman to reply to my earlier point.
Jonathan, you still out there?

"Well it has gone eerily quiet ...."

Jonathan this is probably the most unjewish thing I have ever read. Do you agree with Medad?

Jordan and the Palestinian leadership will never accept the "Jordan is Palestine" argument and neither will their supporters (read agitators) around the world.

That doesn't mean the argument isn't valid. In fact it makes perfect sense from the point of view of historical justice. Let's not forget (and I'm sure Deborah knows this) that use of the term "Palestinians" to describe Arabs that lived in Mandated Palestine arose in the 1960s. During Jordanian and Egyptian occupation of much of Israel there were no calls for independence.

But given that the same Palestinian leadership cannot and will not accept a two-state solution on any terms other than their own (a vastly weakened Israel with enemies at every border), and do not appear to be the slightest bit interested on compromise, I think it's naive to expect that to happen in our lifetimes either. Unless Israel gets another lefty government that wants to commit national suicide.

And even if a two-state solution were ever implemented, are people genuinely stupid enough to think that "Free Palestine" will cease to be a rallying call for Jihadists around the world? Of course it won't. To them Palestine includes Tel Aviv, and they won't shut up about it until the whole of Israel lies in smoking ruins and its Jewish population dead or living as dhimmis under the Caliphate.

Will Deborah at least acknowledge this reality?

Every bit of historical evidence has shown that concessions by Israel only bring more expectations and more demands. Every act of kindness is portrayed as a weakness. Unfortunately this mentality is reinforced by do-gooders in the West.

It's a sorry state of affairs, but I don't see what's wrong with the status quo for the time being until someone's got any better ideas!

Deborah, this part of their platform is what I don't get about "Independent Jewish Voices" (I think you're a member):
4. There is no justification for any form of racism, including anti-Semitism, anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia, in any circumstance.

Not even when we see the atrocities by Islamists against gays, dissidents, females, Ken Bigley, Daniel Pearl, etc, and the calls by European Islamists for the UK and other European nations to become shariah states (as seen on many You Tube videos)?

btw, some old chap is motorbiking from Southport to Number Ten next month with this petition, signed by Deborah's lot as well as by the Quakers. Check out the party hacks who've signed - usual suspects as far as parties go, eh?

The Petition
The petition calls on HM government to cancel immediately the supply of arms from the United Kingdom to Israel. The petition is supported by, among others:

Members of the European Parliament

Chris Davies MEP, Liberal Democrat
Jill Evans MEP, Plaid Cymru
Fiona Hall MEP, Liberal Democrat
Keith Taylor MEP, Green Party
Graham Watson MEP, Liberal Democrat

Members of Parliament

Simon Danczuk MP, Labour, Rochdale
Yasmin Qureshi MP, Labour, Bolton

Academics

Emeretus Professor Steve Baker Univ. Cen. Lancs
Emeretus Professor Richard Hudson, Univ. Coll. London
Professor Mosche Machover, King's College, London
Emeretus Professor Peter Spufford, University of Cambridge

Organisations

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign
The Friends of Lebanon
The Campaign Against the Arms Trade
Jews for Justice for Palestinians
Muslim Public Affairs Committee
Quakers Peace and Social Witness
War on Want

And there's this - what exactly is that woman from Leicester University teaching her students?
Ride for Palestine

Details of an online petition against arming Israel and a vintage mmotorbike ride Merseyside-London to deliver it.

I'm a member of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. I've been disturbed by the activities of the Israeli government for years. But just recently the attacks on Lebanon, Gaza and the massacre on the boat delivering aid have really made my blood boil.

So, I'm organising a petition against arming Israel and a vintage motorbike ride Southport-London to deliver it.
At the moment the petition has c. 750 signatures and five riders have already agreed to take part. All the details, link to the petition etc are at:

http://rideforpalestine.blogspot.com/

I wondered if I could ask you to support the petition, perhaps by signing it and circulating the link above. A link on a web site would be magnificent! At the moment the Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine, the Friends of Lebanon, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade, the Liverpool Friends of Palestine and the Leeds Palestine Solidarity Campaign have all created links - as have individuals such as Labour MP Yasmin Qureshi and different branches of the Green Party such as Chiltern. The Jews for Justice for Palestinians are also establishing a link.

Bruce Burgess.

Among those who have signed the petition are:

Jill Evans MEP, Plaid Cmyru
Emiritus Professor |Peter Spufford, University of Cambridge
The Reverends H.P. Barkham, Tony Graham, Dr J. Barr, Andrew Dawson, Dave Hardman
Cllr Richard Kemp, Leader of Liberal Democrats in Local Government
Cllr Darren Johnson, Member of the London Assembly
Dr Mohamed Altawil, Palestine Trauma Centre
Dr Claudia Prestel, Reader in Mod. European and Jewish History, University of Leicester
Dr Chris Burns-Cox, Consultant Physician (retd)

So we can disregard anything Deborah ever posts here again. Good.

That is very closed minded of you,Akiva

And where has Jonathan Hoffman gone? His silence on medad Ill behoves someone who wants to be the next chair of the ZF

Sorry you feel that I'm being close minded by ignoring apologists for islamic terrorism. I'm not sure how I'll sleep tonight knowing "Telegram Sam", one of our resident Jew-baiters, thinks this of me.

Tell me though "Sam", what Shul do you attend? Question extended to all the lefties that are regrettably given a podium for their anti-semitic diatribe here on the JC.

Akiva, so much sinat china is very harmful to your health and to the health of our people. I attend the Munk shtiebel in holders green. And you?

Fat finger syndrome. Apologies. That's sinat chinam and golders green, obviously.

Yvetta, you said:

Deborah, this part of their platform is what I don't get about "Independent Jewish Voices" (I think you're a member):
4. There is no justification for any form of racism, including anti-Semitism, anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia, in any circumstance.
Not even when we see the atrocities by Islamists against gays, dissidents, females, Ken Bigley, Daniel Pearl, etc, and the calls by European Islamists for the UK and other European nations to become shariah states (as seen on many You Tube videos)?

So, you believe that there are circumstances in which racism is justified?

Akiva:

Tell me though "Sam", what Shul do you attend? Question extended to all the lefties that are regrettably given a podium for their anti-semitic diatribe here on the JC.

Assuming that you're including me in your question, I go to New North London Synagogue (the same one, incidentally, as those other dangerous lefties, Stephen Pollard, Melanie Phillips and Simon Rocker).

Let's not jump to conclusions Sam, I disagree with the lashon hara of some of our regulars here and I certainly try to avoid posting anything seemingly filled with sinat chinam, chas v'shalom. If I have mis-characterised you as the usual left-wing baiters on here, then I apologise.

That said, I don't see any issue with ignoring the clearly anti-semitic, let alone anti-Torah opinions of those who seemingly come here just to take pot shots at the Jews.

Oh and I attend Belfast Hebrew Congregation.

"Assuming that you're including me in your question, I go to New North London Synagogue (the same one, incidentally, as those other dangerous lefties, Stephen Pollard, Melanie Phillips and Simon Rocker)."

Was more referring to the ones here blatantly not Jewish. It is highly dismaying that your opinions on Eretz Yisrael are so at odds with what the Torah has to say though.

This is Elul, mind, so perhaps even Ben Abuyah make some changes?